Nevermet

I need to re-read this thread this weekend

Dumb theory from another thread: Lodril is Ganesatarus.  Here's my post:

20 hours ago, Nevermet said:

That's pretty much my thinking.  Just as Yelm can be broken into a myriad of component deities, so can Lodril / Turos.  There's Turos, ChekTuros, ErskiTuros, DedaddiTuros, HerraTuros, KetTuros... and GanesTuros,

 

GanestTuros is the Turos of the Gan Hills that create the Northern border of Spol.  He is the Turos who is the Shadow of Idovanus.  He is the Turos who Gives and Takes, the completely bitter bastard left over after being imprisoned and enslaved by apparently half the cosmos, who eventually just goes Fuck It and tries to take over after becoming an illuminated black dragon.

 

This is me, btw, at my most absurd and unhinged.  I will make no attempt to defend this silliness.

First, this is a Spolite argument.  Spolitism is a complicated religious tradition that was, as far as I can tell, a re-engineering of Pelandan myth at the end of the First Age where the forces of Darkness and the Underworld were marshalled together to defeat the Dara Happans and other post-Nysaloran religions based on Sky / Fire.  IMG, Spolitism is a religion that is deeply grounded in propitiating dark and powerful beings in the world, and also acknowledging the power of the Underworld and the inevitable goal of everyone and everything.  It knows how to appease Resentful Deities.  Gerra knows suffering, Natha demands human sacrifices according to the Old Ways, and Ganestoros is the God who Gives & Takes.

Name

I can imagine the same deity being named both “Turos” and "Estoro" (YarGan's name for him).  "Ganestoro” is just “Estoro” with “Gan" as a prefix, like the many prefixes Turos gets in Pelanda.

The Gan Hills are a border between Spol, Eol, and Erigia in the 3^rd Age.  In the 1^st Age, they would have been the edge Spol.  So, we’re talking about the Turos of Gan Hills when we are talking about Ganestoro.  "Ganesaturus" is apparently a name of Carmanian origin, or possibly a Dara Happen version of “Ganestoro.”

Earth not Underworld

According to the Guide, Enneserah in Fronela worships “Ganestos” as the patron deity of miners, as he stole secrets from Dwarves.  According to the Entekosiad, Estoro lives underground and his voice is heard through cracks in cave walls.  Additionally, he can appear in smoke from a firepit, as evidenced from the Entekosiad story of Purendi. 

So, Ganestoro is associated with being below ground, but there are no references to him and the Underworld.  He is associated with earth and smoke (but not directly fire).

Personality

Ganestoro is the God who Gives and Takes.  He is an enemy God because, frankly, he’s completely unregulated.  He does what he wants, how he wants.  His vengeance is disproportionate. He is greedy and takes all the animals and grain for himself. 

Turos is the God of Power.  Not justice, not balance, not wisdom… but power.  He does a lot, and not all of it is well thought out.  He sees the divine flower of heaven, desires it, and plucks it without knowing how to keep it alive.

Lodril is infamously the brother of Yelm who, euphemistically, lacks impulse control.  Put bluntly, Lodril is a violent rapist whose desires and emotions get him in trouble.

…These sound awfully similar to me.

The Aspects of Lodril / Turos.

GanEstoro is the “lower” Turos/Lodril.  Where Yelm disintegrated and Bijiif waited in ashes, Ganestoro, the extinguished Lodril, the Black Turos, was capriciousness for its own sake.  Ganestoro did not take to please himself, he took to hurt others.  While Turos slept (enslaved by Argan Argar and others), GanEstos sat upon is black, extinguished volcano and took.

How Does Idovanus Fit Into This?

According to GRoY’s description of Carmanian mythology, Idovanus & Ganesatarus are brothers, and Yelm is the eye of Idovanus that fell to earth. Ganesaturus, a great black dragon, was destroyed by Idovanus, save for 1 piece that fell to earth as an insect, and which regrew into Ganesatarus.

And so I say to you: Yelm threw his brother Lodril out of heaven for his desires, an act that both punished him and gave him over to his desires even more.  He was the Free Father, until other deities and enslaved him.  He gave comfort to the Kachisti, and Zzabur punished him.  Eventually, his fires grew low and he knew hate.  And GanEstoro was reborn.

5 hours ago, Sir_Godspeed said:

I don't think the etymology quite works out (Estoro from GanEstoro versus Turos,) but as you said, this is more of a neat idea than anything else.

I know I said I wouldn't defend my silliness, but that is not the Silly Way! 🤪

...I will have something over in the Dumb Theory thread soon.

2 minutes ago, Joerg said:

In other words, a new path to enlightenment. Lead onwards, sensei.

Ha!

A few years back, I had to make a choice between doing Manirian Scratchpads or Carmanian (especially Spolite) scratchpads.  I don't regret the choice, but I'm still deeply fascinated by western Peloria.

33 minutes ago, Eff said:

Dragons came to tear him apart, and not his enemies, after all.

Generally an indicator someone made a wrong turn or twenty.

18 minutes ago, Nevermet said:

I completely forgot about this

To elaborate, a while back I was wondering around here about what illumination is in all its forms, and the question came up how compatible illumination was with western religion & magic.  The answer I've been tentatively subscribing to is that it could in principle, but that Godlearnerism, with its focus on being able to perfectly absorb everything into a rationalistic or materialistic worldview, was not going to be it.

....I am unsure if this forces me to rethink things

13 minutes ago, Eff said:

Well, there was a Yellow Camp of Enlightenment, and the God Learners had an autonomous experiment running in Kralorela that got deep into its own approach to the mystic and managed to survive the destruction of other God Learners. Gillam d'Estau may well have discovered the beginnings of a pathway to the Sea of Nothing, and beyond that... the Chief Blue Meanie himself. Godunya presumably shut the door tight on that particular pathway, though, but Godunya is on his way out, and the doors may well be coming open with his transcendence.

 

I completely forgot about this

(More seriously: There are most definitely secrets about the West in the Black Horse County, the type of secrets that people hope they never need to know)

14 hours ago, Qizilbashwoman said:

Which Turos? Every city has their own team.

The thing about Lodril/Turos is that he is ever-replicating. There's never only one. It's always "never talk to me and my son, who is also me, ever again". I once tried to count the self-emanations of Turos in the Entekosiad once and it was like four generations that were all just Lodril again.

That's pretty much my thinking.  Just as Yelm can be broken into a myriad of component deities, so can Lodril / Turos.  There's Turos, ChekTuros, ErskiTuros, DedaddiTuros, HerraTuros, KetTuros... and GanesTuros,

GanestTuros is the Turos of the Gan Hills that create the Northern border of Spol.  He is the Turos who is the Shadow of Idovanus.  He is the Turos who Gives and Takes, the completely bitter bastard left over after being imprisoned and enslaved by apparently half the cosmos, who eventually just goes Fuck It and tries to take over after becoming an illuminated black dragon.

This is me, btw, at my most absurd and unhinged.  I will make no attempt to defend this silliness.

4 hours ago, scott-martin said:

Now in modern times people are going to want to explore their heritage and put the pieces back together. This has not been the mission of Hrestol in the past but that's where I'd start this adventure. The Arkat people are too busy with Arkat, the Rokarites are jerks, Siglat PBUH has his own weird gospel not found in Revealed Mythologies yet, Rikard and the Aeolians were looking in a completely different part of the world, the Princes have their more immediate agenda, etc. But some plucky Hrestolite might start rolling the bones back together, God save us all.

Hrestoli Knight: "Well sage, what have you discovered?"

Sage: "Well... the good news is that it appears there is a near full account of how to reach back that far."

Hrestoli: "EXCELLENT!  Who has it?"

Sage: *Gulp*

Hrestol: ....?

Sage: The Atroxic Church.

Hrestoli: Well, f###.

2 hours ago, jajagappa said:

Unless as @scott-martin hints, the real secret is that Mostal stole the secret of iron transmutation from Lodril???

This fits my (very) dumb theory that Ganesatarus is actually an aspect of Lodril.

1 hour ago, Sir_Godspeed said:

If we take the Dwarfs by their word, then Mostal is not so much a conscious entity, an anthropomorph, as it is the gestalt world-system of the cosmos. So what does that leave us with? 

 

If true, then that means a repaired World Machine means Glorantha becomes ... Well, I doubt it would sustain human life as we understand it.

It also means that stealing from Mostal means breaking the world machine a little bit, moving bits where they don't belong, etc.

As for the relationship between the Malkioni and the Mostali, I don't have time to re-read Revealed Mythologies for a few days.

Also, if I remember the newer material on Malkion that Jeff has shared, it implies Malkion came later than Zzabur or Mostal

10 minutes ago, aumshantih said:

I can't agree with this more.    This is a fantastic thread, and would have been helpful when I was running my game in Fronela.

One of my favourite things about the Guide is that every chapter has a "The Hero Wars Begin" sidebar.  Even if (especially because?) they are rarely fleshed out, it creates a great base for campaigns set anywhere in Glorantha.

Just now, Sir_Godspeed said:

Oh yeah. I suspect a lot of Pelorian and Pelandan gods ended up like that.

Yeah, even if Turos and Lodril were viewed as different gods in the 1st Age, they're the same guy now.

And so on.

1 minute ago, Sir_Godspeed said:

I was apparently thinking of Rakenveg.

*Googles* Oh, yeah.....

I'm willing to bet the difference between Rakenveg and Venegdel in the eyes of 3rd Age Pelorians is the difference between Mercury & Hermes.

But yeah, Dara Happa as a culture is much more "anti-ruckus" than the Orlanthi in their worldview.  For the Orlanthi, there's a place for tricksters, just as violence is always an option.  The DH, however, would be obsessed with a toxic rhetoric of purity (if I may put it in modern terms) that would just look silly to most 3rd Age Heortlings.  

1 minute ago, Sir_Godspeed said:

Isn't there a Dara Happan hare/rabbit god who is a trickster? Never heard of a sanctioned cult for it, though, but then that doesn't mean much. 

Then there is of course Tunoral of Vanch, the raccoon thief good, effectively a trickster. But Vanch is outside Dara Happa.

I know there's VenegDel the Burning Hare in Pelanda.  I could believe Lodrili in the Dara Happa countryside who live down to all the negative stereotypes about the Lodrili worship it / propitiate it.

Is there a single best place to go for a timeline of the 3rd Age, or at least since circa 1600 ST?

On 4/16/2021 at 12:31 PM, Joerg said:

No idea whether Vadrus recognized his old lay when he and the Helerings may have gotten into some ruffles.

IMG, they recognized each other, producing immediate hostility, but this is part of a larger "why doesn't it snow in Maniria" rant I have.

Also, regarding Lodril, IIRC, according to some Fronelan myths, he stole the secret of iron from the Mostali.  I wonder if stealing the secret of iron means Lodril learned sorcery.

(I assume this lead to the creation of the Third Eye Blue Kingdom, but that's conjecture)

(Also, seriously, Lava Boy really got around).

6 minutes ago, soltakss said:

My dumb theory is that Lunars see the Law Rune with Malkion as its base, Hrestol as it's right side and the Red Goddess as it's left side, supported by Malkion and Hrestol.

That's a good dumb theory.

I think mine is coming from the way I've been thinking of the Godlearners being dismissive of personality to the point of disrespect (effectively being anti-Arkati wizards)

Also... is it a new dumb theory that the 3 points of the Law Rune are Mostal, Zzabur, and Malkion?  Or is that old, and I forget where I read it?

Either way, they're an interesting triad for sorcery: Material, Energy, & Personality.

1 hour ago, scott-martin said:

* Belintar was very interested in the multiplication of mountains, maybe because he had access to people who remembered / respected Lodril's mountain or something they called a "Spike." Volcano magic is a phase of this: deep magic of Caladra waiting to be investigated.

 

Do you have a cite for this?  I'm trying to get a better handle on the Holy Country.

As for everything else... I feel bad because I don't have anything to add, but thanks for this thread.

29 minutes ago, davecake said:

I think almost all of the specific claims theory are wrong, but plausibly things that idiot God Learners might have believed, and thus the theory as a whole plausible.

One of the things that is truly liberating when writing up setting info for Glorantha is that one gets to replace "So what ACTUALLY happened?" with the easier and more fun, "What did this specific culture think happened?"

Dumb theory:

Slontos sank because the Godlearners tried to reach Erenplose / Porlufta, and failed miserably.

This is a dumb theory because it is waaaaaay out on a limb.

1. Seshnela just got shatered by purple giants. 
   • The Archduke of Slontos was kinda desperate, and he was hoping a city that survived the anger of the Sea Gods could help them
2. I suggest illumination was necessary to enter Erenplose.
   • Getting to Erenplose appears to be absurdly difficult, and the last person who did it was the Palangio the Iron Vrok. 
3. However, the GLs were not really big on illumination
   • They wanted / needed a purely materialistic / sorcerous solution.
4. Enter the Zistorites and the Order of Purification, which claimed to have discovered the "purification rune"
   • Chaos, argued somebody, was imbalanced and impure disorder.  Or, put another way, purified chaos was disorder.  
   • Given this argument, then forms of magic that involved chaos (like illumination) could be reorganized as disorder, which could be manipulated in clean, sorcerous ways without worrying about illumination
5. The purpose of the Trickster College of Thanor was to study disorder
   • If they could prove that disorder was purified chaos, then they could organize illumination within their systematic proofs, material analysis of forces, and logic.
6. The Archduke, his wizards, and the faculty of the Trickster College began their ritual disorder sorcery to contact / invade Erenplose to seek its help / take its secrets.
   
    

• The result: Eurmal laughed, and freed the land goddesses.