jeffjerwin

1 hour ago, jajagappa said:

At the Hill of Gold, Yelmalio fights Storm (Orlanth), Darkness/Death (Zorak Zoran), and Ice/Stasis (Inora).  And then he faces and survives Chaos.  The Hill of Gold Quest does not end with Inora.  Either she leaves him frozen to face Chaos alone, or just wounded and he still must crawl up through the Chaos parasites to reach the peak.  And he does.  As noted in Arcane Lore p.75 "The forces of Chaos were ever-present at the time when Yelmalio climbed the Hill of Gold, and his lack of complete defeat at their hands proved his ultimate ability to survive the world of the Great Darkness. Almost any foe could be used here, although creatures such as broo and scorpion-men are easily "found" to participate in the quest."

The fight against Chaos is similarly noted in the original Yelmalio writeup in Cults of Prax: "During the Darkness Yelmalio’s wounds did not deter his struggle. He joined with the Lord Elf and others to fight against the relentless approach of Chaos."

 

Fair enough. Yelmalio joins with the battle against Chaos. Though the Elf mythology tends to see things in terms of Grower and Eater/Taker, which is not quite the same. In a sense, I suppose, that everyone fights Chaos to protect what is good about the world as it is: Yelmalio and Elmal disagree a little about what that "good" is, but it hardly matters when they both fight chaos.

I feel, however, that both faring out and fighting chaos and protecting the survivors are both worthy.

I also think that the Nysalor-Gbaji problem arises out of a misunderstanding of what is and what is not an existential threat, a problem the Sky pantheon (and probably the Elf pantheon and Dwarf pantheon) has: it doesn't really comprehend the world after the Golden Age as being also worthy of protection, even in its imperfection.

31 minutes ago, Julian Lord said:

IIRC Elmal is actually weaker from having survived the Gods War -- Elmal diminished into being basically a hearth deity, whereas Yelmalio was the Last Light. Yelmalio fought the Chaos, Elmal was protected against it.

I think protecting people from Chaos - not being protected from it - is more accurate. And that certainly is important, or all the stuggles of Urox, and Orlanth, and Zorak Zoran, would have been pointless. Some of the people have to survive.

It's also inaccurate to describe Yelmalio as a fighter of chaos. He fights disorder, darkness, and death, and while these are not infrequently the tools of chaos, they are not chaos. They can even be enemies of chaos. It is the sky/sun pantheon's inability to see the difference that blinds them to Gbaji. Yelmalio served Gbaji; Elmal never did.

This is a bear hibernation myth, I expect. Consider mythologies in our world about this.

1 hour ago, jajagappa said:

Have to remember that Nysalor revealed Daysenereus there, which is just another name for Yelmalio.

I take it that this is similar to Tarumath being hero-formed by Lokomayadon, rather than Nysalor actually being Yelmalio/Daysenereus...?

Edit: Of course, Elmal had to confront the Teller of Lies [Nysalor] even during the Great Darkness, and the somewhat ambiguous way Elmal defeats him may be important - he takes him within himself, or enters into him...

I believe there were rules for pregnancy in RQ in an old issue of Different Worlds (#24).

The rules as I recall were fairly real-world based rather than mythic. Pregnancy should enhance certain powers for Earth cultists, though as I recall it proved a problem for Vinga (source ?).

Of course all this means that when Tarsh and Holay are conquered by Argrath and his allies, the Sun Dome mercenaries change sides, so long as the rituals of kingship (marriage to the Sacred Queen in some cases) are adhered to.

6 hours ago, JonL said:

I also figure that while Monrogh's followers magically supporting his HeroQuest formed a core of Elmali converts by default as new truth he returned with became their new reality as well thanks to their connection to his quest, many of the later initiates will have come from free men around Vaantar who are drawn to the Sun Dome as a bulwark against the Kitori & Uz in northern Kethalia. 

 

The Kitori, as far as we know, are basically inert after Tarkalor's war. There's more danger of a slave revolt among the Sun Domers than then Uz and Kitori taking revenge...

1 hour ago, scott-martin said:

The unasked question here is what the language equivalencies are on Puppeteer Cant. Is it completely alien to local exoteric languages, aligned closer to some than to others, universally familiar like a form of Trade, a virus from outer space . . . ?

It's a secret jargon, I'd think. That means that the less of its occult meanings that are shared with other languages, the better. Kinda like carney lingo. The exoteric language might seem quite mundane and may be built on Theyalan and Trade Talk.

38 minutes ago, Joerg said:

Possibly some weird anti-analogue to Swordspeech, a language with a multiply redundant vocabulary like the Mayan script is multiply redundant for its syllable values, with the option to use gestures, grimaces or dance figures in mid-sentence. The unspoken parts probably can condense to a very concise dialect used to coordinate complex illusions etc. during shows.

Or a version of the Ur-tongue, the Language before Language, when Men and Beasts were not differentiated? It certainly would, as you suggest, include a great deal of body language. There would be, I think, a way to 'double' speech so it is both flattering and satirical.

21 minutes ago, Joerg said:

Donandar can and will be a distraction, too, but only rarely in a bad way.

Donandar, like Orlanth out of 'Orlantio', seems to be a Trickster purged of his Disorder (Orlanth becoming a defender of the chaos rather than simply a thief and rogue). He even has the Harmony Rune, just like Orlanth has the Mastery (kingship) rune (which is clearly derived from Harmony). Thus Donandar's closeness to Eurmal suggests to me a "healed" or "reformed" Trickster archetype, much like the King of the Gods. Thus his mistakes are unintentional, much like Orlanth's later ones.

Of course the 'original' Puppeteer Troupe on the Spike probably synthesized Harmony and Disorder and Truth and Illusion to tell good stories or delight the gods - for that is what a surprise is: the unexpected emerging from the ordinary and laughter is the release of the tension of the whole incongruity.

The incongruity of trolls loving the Troupe, alongside all the other weirdos is part of this.

On a practical level, a Donandar troupe makes an excellent adventuring party, so all the 'synthetic' stories they make up to justify a party of trolls, ducks, and whatnot end up supporting the play.

3 minutes ago, PhilHibbs said:

Every cosmic function can be fulfilled by the Trickster.

Including the function of beginning (birthing) and ending (devouring) the universe.

6 minutes ago, metcalph said:

I really don't like this synthetic mythology.  It isn't how a Troll would see things and the idea that Donandar would have a superior insight into Uz mythology doesn't sound right to me.   This is a cult of entertainers, not a cult of super wisdom.

 

Well, we may have to disagree here. I can see what you are saying, and in this case, obviously, MGDV. It does seem God-learner-ish and from a real-world perspective, diminishes a little the rooted-ness of performance as a human or intelligence quality that emerges spontaneously in every society (and among Uz in Glorantha). I do also have some misgivings.

However, I'm not getting this reading from nowhere. The Troop or Troupe is presented as an esoteric wisdom school and trickster crew (led from early on by Donandar) in published (canon) sources which do bring them into relationship with the Elder Races, the Celestial Court, and the Green Age. It's also clear that they have positive relationships with the Uz. Now, the Uz perspective may well be that the Troop's god is simply Hombobobom under a different name, and for all we know they are correct, and Hombobobom and Molamin somehow found some sort of common ground we call "Donandar" among humans. Or both could be wrong, and Uz simply like music and parties so they favor the Troop, rationalizing it in a different way than the Troop does. However a sufficiently powerful myth in Glorantha is effectively true, particularly if it's tied to an Illusion cult. I think every tall tale told about the Troop and Donandar is true/pleasing/believable within the confines of the Troop's ritual space. Outside their sanctified plays, maybe it's all a pack of lies.

In a metafictional way, however, all play in Glorantha is illusory and involves roles being assumed by players. All Glorantha is just stories and poems and songs. Donandar is a transcendent deity, even if he or she is a minor god, because at heart we know this.

Hombobobom is female, and according to BoDR: Darkness, her drumming, which she taught to trolls, keeps the universe together. She is a daughter of Korasting.

She could be the child or student of Donandar when he/she was among the trolls. Jakaboom, her brother, is both shaman and dancer.

Note that Hombobobom discovered drumming and music while in the Underworld, and used it to keep the Uz together on the surface and to strengthen the people against chaos [USW 4]. This was also the purpose of Donandar's quest, so I'd link them... The entry in USW 4 makes clear that the Uz love music and song. The Puppeteer troupe, notably, includes at least one Dark Troll shadow-puppeteer... And shadows dance.

----

I'd note that the Dark Earth also seems to like drumming and dancing. Of course, music and song and dancing are a part of the universal idyll of the Green Age (what the Trolls call Wonderhome) and therefore we may be not looking at a "missionary" project by Donandar but rather some sort of core trait of joy that sustained all life during the time of Chaos. We may note the Gold Wheel Dancers as well as part of the ancient Council of Friends...

There is another dancing goddess, of course, and that is Sedenya. In the Glorantha Sourcebook, the mending of the world that Sedenya interpolated herself into is the Great Dance of Time. In HoHP, we are told that dance was part of the Sacred Time re-birthing of the universe.

In the same text we are told that Auld Wyrmish includes danced information as well as spoken. Thus the Waltzing and Hunting Bands... Dance plays a major role in the Sartar Magical Union.

Hence, I think a low-combat/high-mysticism/RP game of Glorantha could easily be told entirely around performative magic. We could call it "Getting the Band back together" - on a "mission from Donandar..."

10 minutes ago, jajagappa said:

Given Molamin's traditional association with Yelm, I think that's unlikely.

It's in the article by GS and SP, so not my doing. Molamin was a prisoner of KL, however, whom Donandar freed. However KL then pledged friendship... If I were rewriting this I would make the connection through Hombobobom, god of drumming and dancing.

Edit: Perhaps Molamin followed Yelm into the Underworld? Then this would make a great deal more sense.

4 minutes ago, jajagappa said:

Why is this a surprise?  Yelm after all defeated Orlanth in a contest of dancing!  And always has associations with music (e.g Hyraos Truetune).

True.

This is what we ended up with for the character (I'm still getting fluent with the rules, so I may have made mistakes, though the character is not really OP compared to combat-oriented PCs). We restored the character as a lone Puppeteer... Which I made a distinctive culture.

Jallaein

Homeland: Puppeteer Troupe

Family History [present day: 1609]

Age: ~21, b.1588 (game is set in 1608)

Mother born c.1567.

Passions:

Hate (Lunar Empire) 60%

Love (family) 70% (grandmother)

Loyalty (Puppeteer Troupe) 60%

Mother was killed in c.1597 by Lunar assassins.

Runes:

Air 60%

Earth 40%

Water 20%

Illusion 85% [Puppeteers +10%]

Movement 75%

STR 09            Damage Bonus: -, ENC 9

CON 14           Hit Points 11, Healing Rate 2

SIZ 10             SIZ Strike Rank 2

DEX 18           DEX Strike Rank 1

INT 14

POW 17          Magic Points 17, Spirit Combat damage 1d6+3

CHA 19

Agility +15%: Dodge 82%

Communication +15%: Act 50%, Bargain 25%, Charm 65%, Dance 115%, Disguise 55%, Fast Talk 40%, Orate 60%, Sing 80%

Knowledge +10%: Customs (Puppeteers) 30%, Lore (Donandar) 35%, Speak Puppeteer Cant 100%, Speak Heortling 90%, Speak Esrolian 50%, Speak Old Pavic 20%, Speak Stormspeech 20%, Speak Tarshite 20%, Speak Auld Wyrmish 10%

Magic +15%: Meditate 20%, Spirit Combat 35%, Spirit Travel 25%, Worship (Donandar) 40%

Manipulation +20%: Conceal 35%, Dagger 45%, Shortsword 40%, Thrown Dagger 75%, Play Instrument 105%, Sleight 40%

Perception +10%: Insight (humans) 80%, Listen 35%, Scan 35%, Search 35%, Track 15%

Stealth +10%: Hide 30%, Move Quietly 30%

Rune Magic: Divination, Extension, and Sanctify

Special Rune Magic: Harmonize, Illusionary Sight, Switch Places

Spirit Magic: Bladesharp 2, Coordination 1, Heal 2

Reputation 10%

Necklace of Glamour 2

Puppeteers Cultural Skills: Act +10%, Bargain +5%, Charm +10%, Conceal +10%, Customs (Puppeteers) +10%, Dance +20%, Disguise +10%, Dodge +10%, Fast Talk +10%, Orate +10%, Play Instrument +15%, Sing +15%, Sleight +15%, Speak Own Language (Puppeteers Cant) +30%, Speak Other Language (Heortling) +30%, Speak Other Language (Tradetalk) +20%, 

Cultural Weapons: Dagger +10%, Grapple +10%, Shortsword +10%, Throwing Dagger +10%

Puppeteer Cant (in my game) is a Theyalan dialect with many unusual loan words; it contains a considerable amount of jargon and misleading terms.

It grants equivalency as Heortling, with both Esrolian and Heortling at ½ skill and Auld Wyrmish at 1/10 skill.

6 hours ago, Joerg said:

 

I am a bit astonished that the term Malkonwal survived the capture of Rikard, but it is possible that the Lunars continued the term for the newly conquered district while they had it under their administration. It appears to be the only collective word for Heortland without Volsaxar.

Deep into Malkonwal probably means that the scorpionman plague spread through the forested foothills of the Storm Mountains, erupting onto the plateau in fast raids, harrassing the countryside. Scorpionmen make good raiders, but may be hard put to deal with disciplined cavalry.

Capturing Backford must have been quite the grizzly feast, but for all its role  as a junction in Belintar's Holy Country, it was a small city. But then its position at the exit of the Footprint would suggest that it had some protection or precautions against chaos outbreaks. The bigger cities (Jansholm, Durengard) probably have way better fortifications, and quite certainly larger garrisons, too.

Duchamp might be in greater danger than Durengard, being closer to those forests and a lot smaller.

 

In the History of the Heortling Peoples it is stated that the Bullford/flood region was guarded by Uroxi pilgrims and cultists, but it appears (reading between the lines) that Rikard drove them out, leaving the area ill-equipped to deal with Jab.

Edit: And/or the Bull cultists may have left with Broyan to fight in Esrolia.

OK. Here's what I've observed... the Donandar cult from 1989 is not terribly useful for PCs and doesn't replicate the abilities of the Puppeteers, who worship other gods (as we know from later material). It however did include scaled-down versions of the PT's magic from the board game. The cult was given a set of mythic associations only exceeded by the Lightbringers in terms of unlikely friends.

In Dragon Pass, the PT was one of the more effective magical units. Its ranged and teleportation abilities were remarkable.

In HW, Donandar became a god of rhythm and music worshipped by both Heortlings and Pelorians. His magic was even more limited, but the sub cults were a bit more practical for entertainers than the limited magic of the 1989 write-up. The Esrolian/Heortling Skovari/a cult seems to have strong links to the Troop, but their teleportation and harmonise magics actually derive from Dara Happa.

In 13A in G the PT becomes a potent magical force, nearly untouchable, though they don't actually do physical damage - they can steal magic and even alter memories. They are explicitly linked to Eurmal.

In RQG Donandar is briefly mentioned but not described. There are no mysticism or hero band rules yet. Overall the character concept may simply work better in HQ.

I think the best approach is to adapt the HW magic into spell lists and handle each sub cult as a different cult, each being associated with each other. Thus the Sartar cult is Donandar/Drogarsi or D/Skovara... the first mystic secret of Donandar is the common nature of rhythm and music, so that all musical gods are associated through Donandar, rather than he being a true subject of veneration. A troll initiate of Hombobobom (god of drums and dancing) knows that Donandar is the name for rhythm and that Hombobobom is the "brother" of Drogarsi, even though the two are from different pantheons, and thus they can share magic. So I'll handle the cult very differently than how I initially proposed (which was an attempt to make the '89 write-up usable for a PC). Hence each sub cult probably only teaches a handful of rune spells, and the rest come from the character's cultural background.

The Troop, however, substitutes a mystical sect for the ordinary side of the 'casual' initiates - most Drogarsi initiates are also Orlanth initiates, for example. PT members are not. This is not the cult of Donandar per se - though it is described as such by outsiders. Instead, it is a mystery religion with no actual central figure from the Green Age, which included even gods as ordinary members. Like the Three-Bean Circus (which may be a different fragment of the same thing), it is a remnant of the time before.

Thus the PC I was discussing with my daughter would start out for now as an initiate of Ernalda and Skovara who knows the Donandar secret so she can eventually learn music from other peoples and cults/befriend stranger entertainers. If she is played enough she could become a Puppeteer mystic - i.e., be Illuminated and learn that the universe is an Illusion. But that's not the way a "Donandar" minstrel approaches life, just the inner circle of the Troop/Troupe. Does this work for people...? It does for me.

All in all, Donandar reads, on reflection, as a sane Eurmal. The main difference between the two is that he has Harmony and Eurmal has Disorder, yet they seemingly get along. I wonder...

In Dragon Pass (the boardgame), the Troop has the stats 2-4-4-8, which makes them quite powerful - their range factor is better than most of the Sartar Magical Union, and equal to the dragonewt magical units.

I had overlooked the material in HeroWars... (which is of uncertain canonicity, but is certainly more integrated into Glorantha than the older write-up)

In HW, Donandar magic is focused on "entrancement" and "entertaining music", and the sub cults are Drogarsi (skald, dancer, battle singer), Molamin (a Dara Happan god - teaches Harmonize and Coordination magic), and Skovara-Skovari (puppeteering, laughter). This would mean that the Troop relies mostly on Molamin and Skovara/i for practical rune magic. The illusion magic and switching-places magic is clearly therefore a secret of the Troop wyter or mystic tradition, not a conventional divine source. I may have to rebuild this tradition from scratch.

I'll take a look at substituting some spirit magic spells - though RQG is a fair share freer with rune magics to friendly cults than RQ2 was.

Just now, metcalph said:

None of whom provide any rune-spells according to the writeup.  I can see that Eurmal should provide such magics, I fail to see why Chalana and the others should.  Ernalda teaches Heal (spirit magic) and Orlanth teaches Bladesharp. Yelm teaches co-ordination.  That's a great deal of difference from the major rune magics you were suggesting.

 

The problem is what use is Bladesharp to an entertainer? If Drogarsi is a war-dancer, maybe Mobility would make more sense?

2 minutes ago, metcalph said:

You mean to tell me that a cult of entertainers should have myths that are absolutely true?  Or perhaps that is what they tell others to make them feel better?

Nah. I may be that the Troop has a myth justifying why they are sacred and friends with everyone except actual Chaos. But if they are also Illuminated Mystics, that may be true, in a practical sense.

I'm basically creating a member of the Troop for my game, so I probably should examine whether I should write this up as a hero band with allied wyters and spirits. Eurmal is one of the Troop's gods, as well...

De, Ve, and Is seem like mystic entities (they sound even a little Draconic).

The associated cults listed in the CC article are Ernalda, Yelm (!), and Orlanth. On p. 232 Kyger Litor offers him "eternal friendship"

This is of course an Illusion god so any "truth-seeking" is at least partly a fool's errand...

1 minute ago, metcalph said:

Yet these positive connections do not show up in the associated cults list.  Which suggests that the myths were bollocks to begin with.

The original article was co-authored by Greg Stafford and Sandy Peterson (White Wolf #18, 1989)