Richard S.

6 hours ago, Corvantir said:

As far as I am concerned, the gods know nothing about Time as it didn't exist. They can't perceive it, it is simply not there. The myths we are told were built by the various races of Glorantha from the fragments at their disposal.

Well, except that Divination exists and we have many examples of gods partially existing or intervening in the middle world. Sure, with Divination their perception is limited to their sphere of influence (Yelm can only see what happens under the sun, Kyger Litor what goes on in the dark, etc.), but they can still sense things happening and have a vested interest in growing their power in the world through their cults. The line between time and godtime is also not as clear cut as many make it out to be. Yes, the gods are contained there, but they are also present in the middle world. Orlanth is the air, Yelm is the sun, Kyger Litor sits in a basement of the castle of lead, Waha met and fought Pavis on the plains of Prax and then too shelter in the Paps when he was wounded.

8 minutes ago, metcalph said:

The limit of INT 13 is for learning masteries.  If you don't know the rune or technique then the cost of the spell is quadrupled (RQ:G p386).  But the only slow people who would be casting sorcery would be the dwarves.

The wording is a bit weird, but I think if you're casting a spell with an R/T you haven't mastered it still needs to be implied from your mastered R/Ts.

Runes and techniques are not limited by free INT nor do they affect it.

Another idea for an adventuring sorcerer, one who can help more directly when push comes to shove: an elementalist. Pretty much the same build as before, but swap out Death for Spirit and only take three spells (so you can pump more % into them): Bind Salamander, Dominate Salamander, and Summon Salamander. As soon as play begins, create a binding enchantment, summon a small Salamander, overcome it, and command it into the binding enchantment. Assuming combat doesn't go on for a full five minutes, you can cast Dominate Salamander at only the basic cost of 3MP and release your Salamander on the second round to fight for you, then command it back into the binding before the Dominate wears off. You can also use your Salamander for other things, such as burning down doors, protecting you from missiles, and keeping you warm in winter. If you absolutely don't want to use a Salamander, take Earth - a Gnome is probably the second best type of elemental you can have on an adventure, though they may be slightly less useful if you're in a place with more solid stone than dirt.

My sorcerer got about the same amount by pawning off a chunk of iron. I invested in some slave warriors and a magic crystal then squirreled the rest away.

28 minutes ago, SDLeary said:

Excellent! Thanks Much Rick. 

A further question, which you may or may not have the answer to. 

Above, Scott specifically eluded to these Sorcerous Talents applying to Rune Magic, though I see no specific mention of Rune Magic in what you posted, though terms like Theistic and Clerical are used. Do you know if the actual intent was Rune Magic only, or was Battle Magic included as well?

SDLeary

Comparing it to the information Scott gave, I think Rick may have given an abridged version of the article. I don't see the how wizardry as we know it so far could apply to battle magic, so I'm inclined to think that it merely lets one learn and cast Rune magic without sacrificing to a god.

Worship of the caster, huh. Now I see why it was called humanist. And spirit combatting a god... I see that RQ2 sorcerers were probably expected to become pretty powerful. I'd love to see this fleshed out some (insert "I'll do it myself" Thanos gif here), maybe I'll even incorporate some of its ideas into my Glorantha. As someone with an unabashed love for "old" Glorantha, despite not even being aware of the hobby until 6 years ago, this type of stuff is fascinating to me.

2 hours ago, scott-martin said:

That thing is pretty rare. Sorry to hear Big Purple is still wielding the ban, or maybe comforted that they remain ever vigilant.

I would hate to get banned from here but at that point Greg was spitballing a little. The key was an extremely expensive knowledge skill (not quite as expensive as General Knowledge but far beyond the basics on the character sheet)  called General Sorcery that opened up each tier of rune magic (1-point, 2-point, etc.) with every 25% increment of skill. You would then need to find a sorcerous source for the spell. Most people could cast whatever they had access to once per day. 

There was also a somewhat more affordable Ceremonial Magic skill that let you stack up to 5% onto your casting roll for every hour you spent getting into what we might call the mental Bonewits Zone. Every point was precious so you wanted to take your time. 

Because there wasn't any kind of POW economy attached to this short sketch (maybe a typed page within the larger article) Greg was gravitating toward the knowledge economy as the fun part. Books were going to be important (this mechanic might have turned into the Call of Cthulhu grimoire system) and they were working on a hierarchy of tutelary spirits you could call up and force to teach sorcerous spells. Because this direct route was called Demonology there's a slight faustian whiff around it . . . but no explicit notes about any authority warning people away from it. It would be interesting to reconstruct a Call of Cthulhu that worked this way!

So not lunar magic or RQ3 at all because the manipulations aren't there. There were other efforts moving into the '80s.

So it was basically a way to learn Rune Magic without worshipping a god? And then to cast the spells you needed to make a skill roll? It sounds like an interesting prototype for our modern sorcery, and honestly one that I'd like to try out. The demonology part especially sounds very sorcerous - forcing spirits to give you spells rather than bargaining for them like a shaman or praying for them like a priest.

What exactly do you mean by there wasn't any kind of POW economy and that Greg was gravitating towards the knowledge economy? Did sorcerers not have to sacrifice for their Rune spells, and access was limited by them having to find and learn them from books instead?

Er, I have a question that I think may be related to this topic. Are the Seshnelan Horali war societies related to Hsunchen traditions at all? I know the societies claim animal ancestry, but I'm unsure whether they're actually related to Hsunchen cults.

The Sidekick bot should work, I use it on most of my servers for dice rolling: https://discordapp.com/oauth2/authorize?&client_id=209040908673482753&scope=bot&permissions=0

Is this a voice or PbP game you're doing?

3 hours ago, Shiningbrow said:

Just an important reminder - you get 2 Techniques and 3 Runes and 6 spells (?) given to you at that section of chargen. (Do you also have RPs?)

You can then spend more POW for more Runes and/or Techniques, and you can use your 25/10 skills on other spells...

Obviously, we don't have a real "sorcerer" occupation yet, so that'll change things a bit what it comes out.

 

However, in relation to our adventuring sorcerer, I personally wouldn't start with philosopher. Sure, extra Rune and Technique are nice to have for free... But cult initiation might be better. And ability to effectively handle a sword - especially at start - would be very useful for when you run out of MPs.

Philosopher only gives +10% to 3 spells... Oh, whoop-dee-do! Ignore that, take a different occupation, go LM, and use the cult skills for sorcery, and occupation skills to keep you alive. Use 10/25 skills on getting new spells.

Yes. In the example I gave, you start with a total of 2 techniques, 3 runes, and 6 spells when combining the benefits from your occupation (philosopher, +1t, +1r, +3s) and cult (homebrewed Aeolian, +1t, +2r, +3s). I don't know why you're restating that. The way I interpret it is that Aeolian sorcerers initiate to the Orlanthi pantheon, but their versions grant sorcery to the sorcerer caste in place of spirit magic (similar to how baseline LM can be), so yes they would get Rune magic. I don't now how accurate to canon this is and it'll probably be supplanted once we learn more about Aeolianism.

You need to spend a full season and then succeed at a 1d100 >/= INT+POW roll too. I wouldn't allow a sorcerer to master more R&Ts during character creation than what they get from their occupation and religion.

Philosopher is the closest we've got, yes, but I think it'll be close enough.

You seem to be implying that being a philosopher precludes joining a cult, which is not true. Without the occupation you're down to 2 runes and 1 technique assuming you go Aeolian, or only 1 of each if you go Lankhor Mhy. And you don't need to be able to fight spectacularly - with your buffs the party should be able to pick up the slack. Most homelands grant decent weapon skills anyways, which are augmented by your necessarily large INT (and possibly POW) as a sorcerer. Just plop in a +10 and you should be able to help out somewhat, but it's not your main job unless you're travelling alone (and any sorcerer who does that is an idiot).

I don't see any benefit in passing up attempts to increase your spell skills. It's the job of the party to keep you alive - you die and they lose one of their biggest assets. Once again I wouldn't worry about not having great combat potential, if you absolutely need that then that's what you should spend some of your personal bonuses on. Going Lankhor Mhy and not taking philosopher also means you only have Truth and Command to start and can't use some of the best spells for adventurers until much later in the game. I don't understand what benefit you see in taking a martial occupation+LM is you want to play a sorcerer.

Inspired by the recent thread on sorcery, I decided to try and come up with a way to make a sorcerer who could be useful in an adventuring party. I'm not sure how well this build would actually work in practice, but these are just my preliminary thoughts.

First, you want Fire/Sky and Moon as your primary and secondary runes. INT needs to be at least 16, use whatever methods necessary to increase it. Take the Philosopher occupation and become an Aeolian sorcerer (a little bit of Houseruling here - I give them the same bonuses as an initiate of one of the lightbringers but with 3 sorcery spells instead of Spirit magic). Rokari would give more runes and techniques, but the caste restrictions would be painful for party effectiveness from what I've seen.

You get 2 techniques and 3 runes total, so master Fire, Magic, Death, Command, and Summon. You also get 6 spells - take Boon of Kargan Tor, Enhance INT, Protective Circle, Neutralize Magic, Magic Point Enchantment, and Ward Against Weapons. Skill level isn't too important for these, you're expected to use mediation and ceremony. You'll need a decent mediate skill.

Yourjob is support, prepping the party by preemptively casting long duration spells. You'll need to make a lot of magic point enchantments. It's helpful if you're paired with a shaman or a pseudo-shaman sorcerer to get you some bound spirits. A Truth sorcerer can also help let you know what spells should be cast when and where, using spells like Geomancy, Identify Otherworld Entity, and Pierce the Veil.

Once you get some adventures under your belt and know pretty much what to expect, make yourself some inscriptions for your most useful spells. Make up the lost POW by getting into fights with spirits, assisted by the aforementioned shaman or pseudo-shaman.

Once again, these are just some preemptive thoughts inspired by my reading of the sorcery chapter and the recent topic on sorcery. I don't have any experience with playing a sorcerer or with sorcerer players, and input from people who have would be nice. I'll probably update this in the future as my understanding grows.

Happy new year! Let's hope that this year's harvest game development roll benefits from some good omens!

And also, Sacred Time should technically be in late March

2 hours ago, Scotty said:

Clarification on the Magic Rune.

I guess this makes sense, though it certainly doesn't bode well for the sorcerer I just made last night. Another irreplaceable rune slot down the drain...

On 12/26/2019 at 8:32 PM, Richard S. said:

This makes me wonder if Grimoires will be handled as books of inscriptions. It'd be a nice way to handle it imo, plus it would kinda tie into HQG's interpretation of sorcery as hyper specific spells, since once an inscription's been made you can't change the parameters on the fly.

After rereading the sorcery rules last night, I realize I misread how inscriptions work. I was interpreting it that the Power sacrificed was the only manipulation that could be applied to a spell. Rather, it seems like you can still apply manipulations to an inscribed spell, you just don't have to apply the levels you sacrificed permanent Power for.

For example, let's say I know Finger of Fire and have 12 points of Free INT. Normally I can only apply up to 12 levels of manipulation, but I make an inscription of it and sacrifice 3 POW to bring its base strength up to 4 (1+3). Now whenever I cast it using the inscription, it already has 3 levels of manipulation applied to it for free, so I can still use all 12 points of Free INT to take the total manipulations up to 15.

What I'm unclear about now is whether you have to pay MP for these "pre-manipulations". It says you get those levels of manipulation free, so I'm inclined to think no, but considering how it appears that sorcery is being retconned already from what's in the RAW (@Magic Rune), I'm no longer certain. If you don't have to pay the MP for the pre-manipulation, then that's fantastic for sorcerers, saving both valuable time and energy.

Isn't Norayeep's brother the son of a Minotaur?

This debate over religion is getting quite off topic for the original purpose of this thread I think.

@Fábio Silva I'm terribly sorry for everything that's happened and that you've been through. You are an incredible person to have stuck it through this far, and, while there's no way I can empathize with your situation, you have my deepest condolences and prayers. I hope things never get this bad for you in the future, and I hope that the people you meet are never so willing to turn against you again.

13 minutes ago, Dethstrok9 said:

However, separation of church and state is a invasion of the right to "free speech" and was never part of the constitution...

Well, actually, separation of church and state is part of the constitution, and not an invasion of free speech. What SoCaS means is that the government cannot use its powers to enfore, promote, or create a single religion as a "state" religion. This doesn't prevent religious people from holding office, nor from privately practicing or supporting their chosen faith, but it prevents the establishment by the government of the types of religious institutions many early colonists fled from, such as the government-controlled Anglican or the government-controlling Catholic churches, which tried to prevent them from practicing their own.

This makes me wonder if Grimoires will be handled as books of inscriptions. It'd be a nice way to handle it imo, plus it would kinda tie into HQG's interpretation of sorcery as hyper specific spells, since once an inscription's been made you can't change the parameters on the fly.

3 hours ago, Scotty said:

I have flagged this to the editors, the cults book has a third version of the same spell.

Which version is correct?

I haven't looked at the Smoking Ruins yet, but I'd heard from someone that the sorcerers in it had taken zzaburi caste restrictions. Don't sorcerous caste restrictions increase free INT in RQG? I seem to remember reading or hearing something about that.

16 minutes ago, Rodney Dangerduck said:

*Sigh* you are condescending.

Unlike Earth, on Glorantha women are just as big and strong, on average, as men.  Nor is there "physics" of the vocal cords etc... to affect sound tones.  There's probably not "testosterone" either.

Why would men's voices be lower?

What the fuck are you trying to get at. I legitimately do not understand, and it feels like you're just trying to be rude and cause trouble. Yes, our laws of physics don't apply, but in general things do pretty much work the same, even if there's different underlying reasons. Men have deeper voices in general, just like in our world.

So, I think the conclusion is that there is a gender dichotomy. Whether this is a good thing or not is a matter that probably won't ever be resolved. Personally I think a little gender dichotomy is good for a fantasy world, as long as it goes both ways and there's a good amount of gender equal organizations and societies as well. Lends a little bit of grounding and some possible story hooks (one unique things?) as well ("I am the only female worshipper of Yelm", "I am a man who gave birth and now serve as a devotee of Ernalda"). YMMV/YGMV.

1 hour ago, Qizilbashwoman said:

there was a discussion about this regarding the red hair of Vingites and the temporary dye of the women who take up arms as vengeance-Vingans

the former were presumed to get red hair with their yearly holy day donation; the cost of dye would be more than most Orlanthis make in a year! their hair is actually that crazy red, darker redder than ginger, the colour of fresh blood, Orlanth's hair!

the latter just dye it in imitation, so they pay for whatever the equivalent of madder is.

Personally I think that Orlanth's, and probably by extension the Vingan's, hair is the shade of orange we call "red hair". Orange is the primary color of air, after all. Blood red is more of a fire or moon color.

I mean, the "all Men/Women are Air/Earth" assumption was really the "Orlanthi All", which means it really only applied to somewhere between 70-80% of people in the "all". In HQG I don't believe Orlanth was really gender restricted, or at least females didn't have to worship him as Vinga if they wanted to join. Same goes for Ernalda, men didn't have to be Nandans I don't think.

Honestly, I'd say Ernalda is more gender restricted than Orlanth, since to rise higher than an initiate you have to give birth to a kid, something that, as far as I know, is notoriously difficult for men to do .