Richard S.

I don't have a definite quotation to back me up, but I think that the main difference with old Hrestolism compared to Rokarism would be that you could initiate to a caste other than your parents', and under certain circumstances you could move to an entirely different caste later in life (both probably requiring approval from the local Talar and/or Zzaburi). Of course there'd be more doctrinal differences such as all the stuff Rokar purged from the Abiding Book, but we really don't know what that all was. I feel that that's essentially what the Castle Coast practices, the freedom to initiate to any caste, something that'd be rather difficult in places controlled by Rokari.

The Cult of Hrestol itself I think existed more in parallel to Hrestolism rather than being an integral part. It might have been required in some way for someone to change castes, but initiates would be Men-of-All living in their monasteries or wandering around practicing Justice. The majority of Malkioni would respect them, but they wouldn't be a part of the cult themselves. There's probably a few initiates wandering around the Castle Coast still if I had to guess, but they'd not be very popular in Seshnela.

These are just educated guesses so take them as you will.

Edit: Considering Rokarism as a reaction to the Hrestolism of the God Learners, and the excesses it allowed, it's possible that Hrestoli doctrine is far more open on how much you're allowed to exploit the natural world, following with Hrestol's ideal of mortals making a world for themselves. The GLs freely exploited barbarian cults, ravaged the hero plane, and imo were pretty big "ends justify the means" people. Maybe beliefs like that are what Rikard was exiled for, thinking the Rokari were too conservative in trying to control the world. That and maybe trying to be a man-of-all.

Well good to know I'm just a dumbass on the Horali front; I've read most of what y'all are suggesting, I'd apparently just forgotten the whole lot 🙃. Thanks though.

8 hours ago, Brian Duguid said:

I'm just checking, but hopefully you are already familiar with @M Helsdon's Men of the West, because if not, it's a hugely accessible resource for much of this stuff. The section on the Seshnelan Holari covers several of the caste restrictions already mentioned in this thread, along with details of the Martial Beast Societies, illustrations etc.

Very familiar, it's an excellent book.

12 hours ago, metcalph said:

I assume the wizards cast weekly blessings on the nobles and seasonal blessings on the troops.  Additionally the Nobles have three sorcerous blessings (Attack, protection and a miscellaneous buff), while the soldiers will only have two (Attack and protection).  This requires 540 magic points a week for the Lords (10 lords x 18 mp spells x 3 blessings) and 225 points a week for the soldiers (50 soldiers x 18 mp spells x2 blessings / 8 weeks).  That leaves 135 magic points for the wizards, which is double the magic points normally available to them every week.  And from this, they are expected to cast big spells that benefit the community etc as well as magic for their own protection and research.  What are they meant to do?  Tap?

Personally I think the biggest MP sinks for seasonal ceremonies would be community-wide things like crop blessings or driving off bad weather/pests/spirits, maybe a handful of healings and other very visible demonstrations. Individual combat blessings feel like they'd only be done as-needed, maybe in more impromptu worship ceremonies before the community Horali go into battle. Thanks for the figures on caste proportions, I hadn't seen those before.

1 hour ago, Jape_Vicho said:

I get Eiritha but Waha outside of Prax? O.O I thought he was only known to to the descendants of his covenant. Was he present anywhere else? 

He's the god of butchers to the rest of the world. I don't think herders would worship him though, just the people preparing the meat, and very few would be initiates.

9 hours ago, mfbrandi said:

Interesting. Do you mean that game-mechanically they are Daka Fal variants? In concept, the named entities seem quite different: SurEnslib is quite a grand deity — she “raised the deep earth above the waters and sent the four snakes out to make the rivers and raise the sky” — but poor old Daka Fal is just some dead bloke (not a god, more of a Minos figure).

Daka Fal is the ancestor of all mortals, the one who divided the living and the dead, and the judge of the dead. Feels fairly grand to me. In Runequest, his cult is the generic template for ancestor worship, and cults like SurEnslib, Biselenslib, and Votank are given as examples of specific ancestor cults that provide a unique rune spell in addition to Daka Fal's and have their own associated cults.

Thanks for the help everyone!

13 minutes ago, mfbrandi said:

I just assumed (with no evidence): rightness schmightness — no castes (just pro tempore occupations); no caste special abilities; no problem. Worrying about “rightness” is for the old Hrestoli. Squares!

I'm pretty sure they're still part of the Invisible God's "cult", given that they're still considered a Malkioni sect. They still believe in castes being the basis for civilization, they're just more lenient on which one people end up in.

20 minutes ago, mfbrandi said:

Following your link, doesn’t this sound a lot like illumination?

Not really, no. Hrestoli can only act out of line if they're acting Justly (protecting the weak, fighting monsters, self-sacrifice, etc.). Justice doesn't remove the restrictions of caste, it just reveals a deeper law that can supersede them in times of need. Illumination is far more liberating.

Hi y'all. I'm running an RQG campaign in Seshnela and have a few questions:

1. What are the caste restrictions for Holari? I know some of the rules for the other castes (no fighting for Dronars, no manual labor for Talars, big hats for Zzaburi, etc.), but I've never seen even a partial list for how the Horali are supposed to live.

2. What do y'all think the most common form of Talar ancestor worship is? Daka Fal variants like the ones in CoRL, or specific cults like Talor, Gerlant, or Issaries?

3. Similar question, but what cults should the Dronars mostly use? I'm waffling between Grain Goddess (Seshna) and Daka Fal for the primary one, but I'd like some more input.

4. How common is iron? I know it's more common in the west, but how big a deal would it be if, say, a character started out with an iron weapon and piece of armor?

Any other general thoughts or advice would be appreciated too. Thanks!

https://wellofdaliath.chaosium.com/notes-on-hrestol-and-the-invisible-god/ seems to imply that being a man-of-all requires initiating into Hrestol's cult, which allows you to break caste laws without losing your Rightness so long as the reason is just. I'm guessing that changing castes is something that can be handled within the Invisible God cult, so Loskalm's system can exist without everyone being Hrestol initiates.

3 hours ago, Richard S. said:

The Dawn was the return of the Emperor from the underworld, the end to the line of bad emperors that ruled during the darkness. Yelm returned to his rightful place, but now also goes to the underworld to rule there each night, proving his universal dominion. His chosen people can speak to him again and rule in his name, the way things are supposed to be. I think both Peloria and Kralorela would see things roughly like that.

After a little more reading, I think Kralorela might view things differently actually. Yelm was merely the second emperor in a long line, and while perhaps he was the best one, he's not the ultimate source of the Dragon Emperors' authority (or at least I think it's unlikely any of them were Imperator initiates). Sure, the Dawn was doubtless time for celebration, but it was because their emperors had set the world right again, not because of Yelm himself.

The Dawn was the return of the Emperor from the underworld, the end to the line of bad emperors that ruled during the darkness. Yelm returned to his rightful place, but now also goes to the underworld to rule there each night, proving his universal dominion. His chosen people can speak to him again and rule in his name, the way things are supposed to be. I think both Peloria and Kralorela would see things roughly like that.

I also don't think they really cared about their relative inaction compared to earlier; that was a long time ago, and for the people alive at the Dawn the sudden return of life to the world probably seemed like an overwhelming amount of action. They'd gotten used to a silver age where all they had was Yelmalio and a few spirits, where most of the world was still dead and sleeping.

2 hours ago, Jape_Vicho said:

Did humans before Time die of old age? Did they age? Did they feel things happened one ofter the other?

From the little we know, I think so. Old age and death by it is a product of Grandfather Mortal's death, not the entropy within Time. And I think there are stories of Dara Happan scholars counting the years since Yelm's death by burning candles, so there was some level of continuity for them at least, especially as they got closer to the Dawn. How that meshes with the nonlinearity of the God Time we know is just one of those impossibilities that has to be accepted.

36 minutes ago, Squaredeal Sten said:

Is the RQ2 cult compatibility table a dead letter?

I note that thete is no equivalent in tbe RQG cults books published so far.  Associated cults are listed. and some dislikes are stated in general terms, but that is about it.  For examplr Issaries' relationship with Etyries is undefined.  Is this intentional YGMV material?

I do understand that with many more cults written up, the size of the matrix has grown exponentially.

There's a cult compatibility table on page 311 of RQG, with pretty much the same values as in RQ2 as far as I can tell. I imagine that if we're getting a modern, full compatibility chart it won't be released until after Cults of Runequest finishes.

Yeah, you started out at ground 0 by default in RQ2, with only the skill your character developed as a kid. Honestly I don't think it was so bad, albeit it's been a few years since I played. Sure you had a lot of whiffs, but the ease of increasing skills by experience meant we were getting our weapons and other important skills up to around 40-50 pretty quickly.

It might be good to look at the Reminiscences of Paulis Longvale, since Oddi the Keen is probably the most well known example of someone being Illuminated accidentally. Seemingly he didn't notice for a while, not until he was about to fight Ralzakark and realized he no longer felt the same level of hatred towards him.

In their old writeup C&A actually had Mostal as an associate cult, which somehow granted them a rune spell (diamond edge). The flavor was that the dwarves were thankful to the twins for creating diamond, and were also the primary users of earthblood and firebone, mortals preferring the lowfires.

6 minutes ago, Squaredeal Sten said:

Hiwever in a related train of thought, Asrelia would be the goddess of miners.

Yeah, CoR;EG talks some about that. Interestingly it seems like most miners are only lay members though, her initiates are just the ones who run the mines.

Speaking of other smithing related gods, Caladra & Aurelion are probably pretty important as the main source of coal, though I think wood is still the main fuel for smiths.

There is one, Gustbran, god of smiths (mostly bronze but any will do) and one of the Lowfires. I think he might cover pottery and other similar kiln-based crafts as well but I'm not sure. His cult is largely organized into guilds like this one. There's not really any other dedicated metalworking gods, though most every elemental cult has some means of enchanting their own metals of course. Blacksmithing with iron is a secret of the Mostali and a few specialists who stole it from them.

It looks fine to me, but if you want more ideas an alternative to consider might be her RQ3 version, which provides no Rune magic of her own, only getting associate spells from Etyries (mindlink) and the Seven Mothers (command lune, excommunication, mindblast, regrow limb, truesword). Lunar magic is the main thing she offers.

Another interesting fact about Oakfed is that he's the god of sacrifice, the sacred fire that sends offerings to heaven (thus why he can sometimes grant Cremate Dead). IIRC the Dara Happans even have a small priesthood for him in that role, under the name Enverinus.

Also, while he gives the power to Create Wildfires, stopping them isn't something that really interests him...

1 hour ago, ZedAlpha said:

Any concrete information on the Earth Witch and Kolat traditions I could look up?

They've got small entries in the Sourcebook and Prosopaedia, Kolat is an associate of Orlanth (providing Bind Wind), and Earth Witch is mentioned as an associate of Eiritha (providing summon, command, and dismiss earth elemental), but there's not much recent. Kolat got a writeup in the HQ2 Sartar Companion, and there were some online writeups for their HQ1 traditions, but all those are likely to be superseded once the Spirits book comes out (though that won't be for a while). I think the HQ1 versions are in a chunk of HQ material I archived in the forum download section, but I'd have to check. There doesn't even seem to be anything in the Well.

Edit:
Found them:

Kolat and Serdrodosa will be what you want.

Maybe Gorakiki-bee specifically is neutral towards Yelm, like Xiola Umbar? Fire and Darkness might be natural enemies, but there's always an exception. I like the idea that insects took over pollination from things like wind spirits during the turmoil of the darkness. And hell, maybe beekeeping provides a social role for those elves born with some darkness affinity.

59 minutes ago, ZedAlpha said:

Another dumb theory: intentionally making an alloy out of copper (the magical Gloranthan metal) and tin (the other magical Gloranthan metal) makes anti-bronze. What does anti-bronze do? Nobody knows, 'cause the dwarves will sort that mess out real quick if they find out you've been making it.

I'm pretty sure alloying copper and tin already just makes regular bronze. God-bone bronze is pretty rare, not the primary source.

(I'm speaking from an RQG perspective but it should be easily adaptable). I believe that Kolat and Earth Witch can be approached either as independent spirit cults or as shaman paths within Orlanth and Ernalda's (or maybe Asrelia's idr) cults, respectively. A spirit cult is basically a shaman going out into the spirit world and making a deal with a powerful entity there, where they get worship and the shaman gets some limited rune magic. A shaman path is a formal place for shamans in a rune cult's hierarchy, like the Golden Bow for Yelm, with better access to powers but also more restrictions.

Shamans are naturally independent of cults, except for maybe Horned Man. Most shamans are part of one or more, and usually an apprentice will go the way of their master, but it's not required like it is for priests. In Caladraland most shamans will probably be part of the Daka Fal cult if I had to guess, but I'm not gonna try and give estimates for what spirit cults might be around given how flexible they can be. Earth Witch definitely might be there given the proximity of Esrolia, but I wouldn't expect much Kolat due to the air gods being less popular in fire country.

What cult a prospective shaman is raised in probably depends entirely on what shaman found and recruited them. I don't think the Caladralanders as a whole would have a formal method for finding and raising them, given that they have well established rune priesthoods for their spiritual needs. If a kid with a dormant Fetch isn't picked out by the local shaman, they might go their entire lives without knowing what they could have been.

I think it's simply a change without a lore reason. There never really was a good reason for him to deny them, imo, especially because there's several groups of henotheist Orlanthi like the Chariot of Lightning and Invisible Orlanth. On the shaman side, I believe it was said that Kolat is going to be integrated as a shaman path for Orlanth Thunderous.

24 minutes ago, ZedAlpha said:

I kind of like Law and Water. The tides are regular as the Cosmos itself, and that might set them at odds with their possibly-Illuminated sibling. This one might also be the god of tide pools. Their priesthood's initiation might involve ritualistically allowing the high tide to wash over you and recede, or something.

I think going with Stasis would better fit that theme of regular patterns, but I like it. Suggesting Law does make me wonder if they maybe have some knowledge of sorcery? Water+Stasis+Sorcery(Law)? The LM connection grows stronger...

Edit: maybe scrimshaw and tides apprenticed under the Knowing God during his travels? Would explain why one is literate and the other likes laws.

21 minutes ago, ZedAlpha said:

That'd probably mean that their magics are like...strangely powerful for how relatively insignificant they are as deities? Given how close they can be to their worshipers?

Yeah, but more importantly they can actually do new things! Given how absolutely jacked the first whaler probably is, I really need to see him throw down with some other heroes before he gets Compromised away...

Okay I'm gonna catch a quick sleep now.

Third post in a row, sorry, thinking of several things while slightly boozed and not stopping to string them all together. Zed you might want to buy the Prosopaedia if you're interested in how your gods relate to the existing sea pantheon. Just search up Merfolk Pantheon and that should give you the highlights on the major ones. Also just a good book to show how the same gods are worshiped across a variety of cultures and how portfolios like beast god, storm god, etc are distributed.

11 minutes ago, John Biles said:

Fourth thought:  Perhaps the priests of the timekeeping god locked the island away to keep the god of the wild from *escaping*.  But now the First Whaler is tired of sailing around the same tiny sea and found a way out because that's what Heroes do.

Ooh, I like this.

I have to wonder, too, if them being locked away before Time means they're maybe less restricted by the compromise. Maybe the First Whaler and his family are still there to physically lead their people into these new oceans?

Just now, ZedAlpha said:

ooh. Would it be too paradoxical for Tooth Carver to be Illusion and Truth? Art and record-keeping? It'd make sense for a culture to value both things.

Sure, sounds fun. It does imply some association with Illumination to use opposed runes though, which could provide an interesting hook.

5 minutes ago, ZedAlpha said:

Yeah, I wanted to come up with a very small group of gods who the players have to figure out the Runic implications of to deal with. I figure First Whaler would be Water, Man, and Mastery, his spouse would probably be Water/Life/Beasts, Scrimshaw Child would probably be Truth/Water/Communication, and so on.

I'd keep them to two runes at most, maybe even just one for the children. 3+ runes are usually reserved for big gods with lots of powers. My suggestions:

• First Whaler & Sea Mother - Man, Spirit, Water, Beast. As a combined cult they can have more associations than normal. I recommend Spirit because of the ancestral aspect. If you want to keep their cults separate:
  • First Whaler - Man, Death. An ancestor and a hunter. I don't recommend Mastery as that's the rune of capital-H Heroes.
  • Sea Mother - Water, Beast. Suggests a relationship to Tholaina, goddess of sea animals, which seems appropriate.
• Boat Maker - Water, Movement. Should be obvious.
• Tooth Carver - Movement, Illusion or Truth. Illusion or Truth depending on whether their scrimshaw is purely artistic or is for record keeping. Communication nowadays is specifically the Issaries rune, a composite of Movement and Harmony, and Water isn't really needed.
• Tide Keeper - Truth, Water.
• Island Mother - Earth, Darkness. A former grain goddess who lost most of her fertility, replacing it with coldness.