Bleddyn

I can see them tearing flesh open, but I would think that tearing limbs off would be unlikely. I would expect them to just punch right though something like a body.

Maybe if it hit a major bone at just the right angle, that might @rpvode enough resistance.

They will on contact.... 50cal rounds will tear limbs off, ask any vet. I still have my headspace and timing key.

@Nightshade: I know what you mean, everyone you speak to has a different answer and a lot of the evidence contradicts itself. Problem is that there are so many variables and it's so generally such a traumatic event for the body that it's hard to correlate cause and effect. For instance: My mate Kenny the Commando once told me what happens when you fire a heavy machinegun into someone and from what he said the phrase 'total limb disablement' would seem to fit. I remember reading somewhere that with an HMG it's the air cones that come with the rounds that do the real damage. And I've heard so many different things about hydrostatic shock that I tend to ignore more things concerning that these days.

.50 cal rounds will tear your flesh open with in a certain amount of distance and they do tear limbs off.

One problem with that is that even hit location isn't the complete answer here; people are notoriously idiosyncratic in how they respond to gunfire. One study I read said that, in essence, there were four possible results (during the course of an actual combat; afterwards all kinds of other things set in, but they were very rarely a factor during the actual fight) of getting shot: shocked out (which could mean either physical shock or psychological reaction), bleeding out, nothing noticeable, or the (actually surprisingly rare) traumatic organ disablement.

Everything else, including meaningful disablement, didn't actually come up during the course of a firefight; even things we'd think would impair tended to get lost in the up and downsides of adrenaline surges (i.e. the adrenaline helped you in some ways and hurt you in others, but between the two it tended to to make even things like tendon damage largely unnoticeable until you'd had time to come down off it).

Presumably this applies to melee combat to a large extent too, but the study didn't look into that, being based primarily on law enforcement shots fired afteraction reports.

Edit: Sort of lost my point, which was you couldn't predict which one you'd get from, well, much of anything. There was a general tendency toward the stronger effects with higher caliber weapons, but even there it wasn't consistent, and even headwounds (where hydrostatic shock is an actual issue, unlike the rest of the body) weren't particularly consistent.

If anyone is interested in discussing this that I suggest they read up on the Tactical Combat Casualty Care and the PHTLS (adavanced-Militaray)/ATLS course materials. Wound Cavitation from high velocity rounds and care from the platinum 10 minutes through golden hour to the silver 24 gives you a breakdown in the lethality of GSW's per location.

TS did. It even had an assassination table. In fact, that is one of TS weaknesses. Like AD&D, pretty much every aspect of the game required some specific rule and an accompanying table, and host of modifiers. Most of those rules are very detailed, but sometimes to the point of comic relief.

I flipped through the TS book the other day, thanks to this thread, and ntoiced that, according to the bullet modifiers table, .32ACP rounds do more damage than 5.56 NATO rounds, and that a .45 ACP bullet,does more damage than a .30-06! For some odd reason, TS failed to differentiate between pistol and rifle ammunition!

So I think we might all be guilty of letting our nostaligia tint our view of some of these older RPGs. Not that TS was bad, just that it really needed to be streamlined. For instance, the assassination table could have been discarded and replaced with a modfier to the standard damage roll. There was a TS Companion book, but while it added some new stuff, it meant even more tables.

As for the WIL rolls in Bond. Yeah they made a big difference in how Bond played compared to other RPGs. We had one campaign where one PC opted for a Detonics Combat Master (a >45) and discovered just how much extra stopping power the weapon hand in the RPG. That extra - EF to Pain Resistance rolls made quite a difference.

Thing thing about the Bond RPG was that it could handle the Bond of the novels as well as the Bond of the films, so you could do a lot more with the rules than one might think.

LOL you have me flipping through both rules... The TS companion is pretty good stuff for back then. It is however good to talk about it.

The amount of retreating, or the amount of shooting. What teneded to happen with us was that PCs who weere good shoulds would pull an Indian Jones and just shoot people rather than risk a HTH encounter. Esepcially if the PC wasn't that good at HTH.

About the "arcade" stuff. What I was reffering to was that the Streetfighter RPG was based off of the Streetfighter series of arcade fighting games, and had some special maneuvers to duplicate the abilties of the game. Throwing fireballs and such. That is the kind of thing we'd need to eliminate if we wanted to adapt the mechanic to BRP. Unless you want spies throwing fireballs.

But the mthod is one of the few that would capture that "comapring maneuvers" feel of the TS tables.

Supposedly William Wallace could do that, or was it lighting from his ass?

Theoretically you can get SAP plates for your armor if you can find, trade or scrounge them up. Rubble and Ruin has slightly higher tech than our world. One of the bruisers in our group is wearing a really nice breastplate. I picture it something like the armour they had in Aliens. I think a 7.62x54mmR would just punch a hole in his armor (cannot recall the actual stats off the top of my head).

I have RL experience with the III+ & IV+ Level SAP plates.... especially vs the 7.62mm x39mm and 7.62x54mmR B-32 rounds.... I will share this in a private chat if you like. Also a few anecdotal notes about the Long-Iron shooters we have gone up against.

Here is a company that makes claims that I know are not 100% accurate. http://www.bodyarmornews.com/bodyarmordevelopments/new-hard-armor-inserts-developed.htm

Narl and I are playing in Rich's Rubble and Ruin game now. We haven't gotten into too many firefights yet:) The rules mimic the effects of modern firearms against modern armor pretty well. It's basically an all or nothing affair with armor. A light kevlar vest will soak up all the damage of a small round, like a .22, easily, but is almost worthless against a high powered rifle. Fortunately ammo is pretty scarce in the rubble.

Guess SAP plates are not available? 7.62mmx54mm is a bitch to stop....

I see I am not CoC fan....but I understand

Sorry my mistake! Did mix up the Devils Gulch and Aces High thread.

But the two modules blend so well together anyway.

Kung Fu wielding Shaolin monks are available for play in the Aces High book.

Yeah Kung Fu was cool in the west.

Don7t let the tables fool you. Despite the huge number of possible targets zones to strike, the combat system was basically a form of "rock-paper-scissors". Skill didn't play much of a factor.

If you wanted to do that, you would ned to expand on things. There is amartila arts supplement mentoid eailer thad adds those types of maneuver to the game.

Now, if you want to add in the tactical elemt of matching maneuvers and counter maneuvers, I7d suggest typing to adapt the system used in the Streetfighter RPG.

it gave each maneuver a speed rating (determiend by the maneuver, your Dex, and your skill). Higher Speed would go off first, and some maneuvers could be "aborted to". For instance you cold "abort" a slow, powerful, attack for a faster block. it had rules for combinations, too. While many of "arcade game" aspects would need to be dropped, the underlying idea could be used in BRP.

Rock paper scissors did work until your unarmed combat got ridiculous with the amount of "retreating" that occurred. I concur though that "skill" or level of proficiency needs to be a factor in the process. The Arcade fluff .... yeah I was a combatives instructor in the army...the kata/arcade/hollywood nonsense ends real quick.

Comapred toTS? Quite a few. Here is a partial list:

1) Shot placement and skill play a major factor in weapon effectiveness. In TS (as with most RPGs) it is mostly random.

2) Stopping power. The WIL roll that people have to make when it means that someone who gets shot can just ingore the wound and shoot back (until his hit points/Life Levels run out).

3) Much easier way to handle modfiers. In TS, there are a lot of modfiers, and most are not very user friendly. For instance some weapon range modfiers are things like -147. Figuring out the chance to hit can get tedious when you have to work out several modfiers,, and several shots. For instance, the automatic weapons fire modifier is something like -11% per shot fired. -10% per shot woudl have been a lot more player friendly. Ease Factors are much, much easier.

4) No hit points.

THat are just a few things.

Now, to be fair to Top Secret, it was written in 1980, and pioneered a new genre for roleplaying. Soit deserves credit for doing many things first, even if they way it did somethings left a lot to be desired.

TS did have called shots.... albeit with offensive penalties., the Wil roll you mentioned is realistic (been there myself RL), I understand the math issue with modifiers considering flow of play (but it did still work). The Will roll with certain types of wounds is something to consider.

It Could be I am sure Chaosium is happy I am purchasing so much of their inventory, I am also thinking about watching for the D101 "The Company" to see what it is about.

Gotta have ninjas and stray kung fu masters in the wild west.

I think the best place to find an answer would be the Dragon Lines supplement with

its focus on the martial arts, the BGB itself does not cover this very well.

I will look into it

Depends on what youwant. The basic martial arts system from RQ/BRP (roll under skill, double damae) is simple and fast. Not very interesting, but simple and fast.

You could also add in the Unarmed Combat Power from the powers section to reflect expert martila artists.

Or you could try adapting something like the martial arts system for HERO.

I really like the TS putting the sheet of paper up against a matrix and going: "you three Attacks and two defenses" and slugging it out. Yet, that doesn' handle the reality of modern day unarmed combat. But with BRP how does one handle say a "combatives" (MAA style) Strikes, Locks, Chokes & Throws. Using simple combinations like Inside punch intrecept/choke that in blinding speed turns into a takedown with knee to the groin.?

I think recently one of the most compelling pieces espionage literature was " See No Evil" by Robert Baer.

As far a VG games combat system... yes prior to my tours in Afghanistan it did seem to simulate it fairly well, but hindsight now I lean more towards TS or a d100.

If I may ask what were the merit of the VG James bond system that you found superior, Maybe I am missing something?

Does it have Cowboys, Indians and Ninjas?

I never played Top Secret, but I imagine that SpyCraft wouldn't be terribly difficult to convert to BRP. I would definitely be interested in that type of setting for BRP.

I just have recently heard about spycraft. Its d20 right?

So we are still discussing "wayfart"? Somebody needs to find the BRP one ring to " Rule them all.....and in the darkness bind them".

Like I said in a post to Peter Nash MRQII had such a nice ring, like BRP.

Speaking of mechanics ... the martial arts system in TS was simple and fast.... suggestions for BRP?

VG's James Bond was more of a "Hollywood Espionage System" in my opinion. Espionage meets Playboy. But I did plunk down the cash for it as well.

The dungeon claw was a sign of the system, not the times. Other, espioe RPGs of the era were not as bad.

Well, I spent a few buck more and bought the James Bond 007 RPG, which IMO is probably the best system for the genre.

I know what you mean. I only mentioned S.I. because it's game mechanics would adapt more readily to BRP than the original. Some of the orgnial's game mechancis, like HTH and Surprise Values and "class" and "levels" would be more problematic when converting to BRP.

BRP to me is the ideal system to capture "update" of old Top Secret.

Presently I have everything from old TS save modules TS005 - Operation: Orient Express & TS006 - Operation: Ace of Clubs. I am hoping to have a complete collection soon.

I never played Top Secret, but I imagine that SpyCraft wouldn't be terribly difficult to convert to BRP. I would definitely be interested in that type of setting for BRP.

Considering this day an age it wouldn't have to look far for inspiration.

"FYI I have the modern firearms system that I used in Rubble and Ruin available in the download sections. There are Modern and WWII. Many people tell me they like these rules. "

Many compliments on the rules ... In fact I am about to spec out my RL 6.8mm M4 for my modern BRP Shadow Warriors Campaign.

No doubt the majority of the adventures where crawls and combat oriented. But with the recent "Shadow Warrior" theme in the movies from the Borne trilogy to the Body of Lies the stressing of field craft and information collection is coming into vogue. Back in the early to mid eighties what did you expect for 32 pages for $6.00. Besides at 12 years of age back then I was more a wanna-be commando then. My sidenote about TS/SI is for me just didn't capture the feel.

BRP to me is the ideal system to capture "update" of old Top Secret.

Presently I have everything from old TS save modules TS005 - Operation: Orient Express & TS006 - Operation: Ace of Clubs. I am hoping to have a complete collection soon.

According to legend there was 7 other piglets when this one was chased down by Arthur. So the random traits could cover the offspring.