Brootse

15 minutes ago, dumuzid said:

Using Call on Stars from the Red Book of Magic you can get spirit magic quite a bit stronger than that.  The spell's write-up mentions spending 4RP to get Bladesharp 8.

For conventional spirit magic, it seems like the only hard limit is how much CHA you have to store spells with.

Yeah, I've wondered about that too. Glorantha Bestiary p. 167-168 state that animal spirits have their CHA amount of spells, and that crustacean spirits have only Protection. On p. 165 on the Random Spirit table an average spirit would have 3d6 CHA. Which would mean that getting a strong Protection spell would be rather easy.

I don't think that I've seen larger than six point spells in official sources. Is that the maximum spirit magic spell level?

On 2/19/2021 at 3:34 PM, Soccercalle said:

Any news about the things we have been waiting for a couple of decades, official RQ rules for Heroquests? We was promised that they would follow soon after the new rules. I think it is great that the Jonstown Compendium gives us scenarios and settings. But I think that Chaosium should prioritize official Heroquest rules and official cult descriptions. That is more important than "the art". I would rather prefer an ugly word-file in 2021 to the most beautiful book ever in 2027 or something.

Yeah. I don't get why they weren't included in the core rules. Heroquests are more integral to games set Glorantha than Sorcery is.

On 2/7/2021 at 7:19 AM, Eff said:

ENC is too much of an abstract value to draw much from it. 1 ENC of gold bullion is worth 600L on average... 1 ENC of gold wheels is worth 2000L. 70% of the value of those coins must be in seigniorage! Or, alternately, 1 ENC of gold bullion is much less gold than in 1 ENC of wheels, because gold bars are much less convenient to handle than coins which can be stuffed into a purse.

Yeah, the ENC system is one of the weaknesses of RQG. The mass of the object depends on its shape. If a 1 ENC metal bar is made into coins its mass is 1kg, if it's made into a sword its mass is 1.5kg, and if it's made into an armor its mass is about 2.5kg. And a sack filled with 10kg of coins is as hard to lift as a person whose mass is 60kg.

And as you said the seigniorage is absurd. In medieval England it and the minting costs were about 10%.

38 minutes ago, Kloster said:

I didn't knew. At least Europe solved this specific problem.

No, there are different gauges in Europe too. But carts aren't trains and don't need ruts. And if there are mainly dirt roads in Pavis and Sun counties, they would be in a bad condition for most of the year, and the ruts, and even the road widths, would be in constant change. The different axle widths causing trouble would only make sense if the roads were stone/brick paved, and if the Sun county used much slimmer carts. Of course Sun county being Sun county, they cause trouble for strangers even for no good reasons.

And carts aren't very important for trade goods transportation anyway. River transportation costs are about 1/8 of road transportation costs, and sea transportation 1/30.

11 hours ago, MOB said:

Yep, that's the point. 

The wheel rut thing is based on how things once were in China, where different provinces had different axle widths, so travelling any long distance tediously required multiple sets of axles.

There might be some vestigial remnants of superior roadways from Pavis's heyday, but in the Zola Fel valley the easiest way to move stuff most of the year is by boat or barge.

Check.

14 minutes ago, Joerg said:

"tends to be independent" doesn't mean there aren't guilds spanning several cities. Boldhome is one of the two cities with large enough Sartarite population to have guilds easily big enough to have wyters. Places like Swenstown and Wilmskirk may have at best two or three (master) practitioners of a single craft. Even with two journeymen and five apprentices each, and a marriage partner, some non-apprenticed children, and some dependent un-apprenticed siblings each these won't be enough to support a shrine.

 

That makes it hard on journeymen who change masters a couple of times before finding a guild willing to let them take over a master's position, or more rarely to carve one out for themselves. They will carry the experience of various guilds, and keep a greater community alive. Having worked in several different cities might even be a requirement to become a master, even if you return to the place of your apprenticehood.

In the case of redsmiths, there may be some guild members in nearby villages contributing to the guild. A good sized village like Garhound may well have a licenced journeyman redsmith or a quite poor and minor master providing for their short term needs.

Guilds don't necessarily have to be single craft specific, eg. in Baltic cities there was one important guild for rich merchants and two to three guilds of lesser importance for other people.

Proper sized cities like Nochet could very well have guilds for glove makers like Paris had, and still have enough people for wyters, but imo smaller cities should have guilds with wider bases.

11 minutes ago, Joerg said:

RQ3 Sun County mentions the different axle lenght which makes the wheel ruts inside Sun County unsuitable for the standard Dragon Pass/Luar wheel ruts. (p.9, under the heading of Trade)

Do stone paved roads have standardized wheel ruts? I have seen a Celtic to Medieval dirt road in Bavaria cut through a hill slope extension in several separate man-made little valleys, but no trace of wheel ruts there. The main dirt road leading from Denmark towards the vicinity of Hamburg was about half a mile wide, except at the gate (or later gap) at Danneverk.

A road paved in soft stone might well develop a more permanent impression of wheel ruts. (So does the ramp leading into my garage, tiled with s-shaped stones about 10 inch long. Those ruts are rather rounded in vertical profile, though, and a different axle length wouldn't be a problem.)

Yeah, that wheel rut thing in Sun county seems quite strange to me.

Does Pavis county or Sun county have any stone-paved roads?

17 hours ago, Ladygolem said:

Multiple elders per guild?

Half the adult urban population in a guild of some kind doesn't seem to crazy, honestly. People in cities are either going to be some kind of skilled worker or soldiers/priests/administrators/adventurers, because otherwise they'd be farmers living in rural areas. A fifty/fifty split between the two doesn't sound too crazy at first glance.

50% of adults being guild members or dependants sounds good, but only if there are more guilds than the ones mentioned.

6 minutes ago, David Scott said:

Not as far as I can see in the three core Pavis books. Brygga is an Ernalda initiate. You're thinking of "Brygga Scissortongue is holding surreptitious Orlanth worship in her home on Rich Hill - general rumor." Where as an Ernalda initiate, she would be participating as a lay member.

If there are no more guilds, what do the other guild elders do? And would the members of those guilds have half of the adult population as members?

1 hour ago, David Scott said:

TLDR - No.

Looking at the Guilds in the three core Pavis books, it's clear they are occupational and semi-political groups. There is of course a spillover into the cults present and some of the guilds appear to be the city version of a normal cult. This is clear in at least the Alchemists, Bronze, Merchant, River & Stonemasons guilds (note that if there is a legal alchemists guild, my belief is that it's still a front for the Lanbril cult, Pavis is too small for two alchemist guilds). The high priest of the cult is likely to have a wyter and so and by association so do those guilds. The other guilds, I would say no. They are headed by initiates of other cults (Hallarax is likely a Donandar cultist or similar, as well as a Zola Fel initiate). Depending on who is head of what will confer a wyter to the guild. For Example when Valerina leaves Pavis, an issaries priest will likely take over, who may well have a wyter. 

Format Cult (associated cult) - Head of guild (cult membership) - Wyter?

Alchemists’ Guild (Lanbril) - Yes, Lanbril.

Bronze Workers guild (Gustbran)- Kalf Haldelson (priest of Gustbran) - Yes, Gustbran.

Cloth and Leather Workers guild - Byrgga Scissortongue (Ernalda Initiate) - Currently no.

Jeweler’s Guild - Kolli the Portly (Flintnail Initiate) - Currently no.

Merchant Guild (Issaries and Etyries) - Valerina the Peddler (priestess of Etyries) - Yes Etyries.

Minstrel’s Guild - Hallarax the Singer - - Maybe of Donandar based on Hallarax's cult status.

Riverman’s Guild (Zola Fel) - Hallarax the Singer - Yes, Zola Fel.

Stonemason guild (Flintnail) Ginkizzie (priest of Flintnail) - Yes, Flintnail.

Tanners Guild - unknown.

Thieves’ Guild (Lanbril) - Yes, Lanbril.

Weapon-masters - Derenx the Handsome (Humakt initiate) - Currently no.

Thanks! Are there other guilds in Pavis? Wasn't Brygga an Orlanth worshipper?

14 minutes ago, Joerg said:

I don't think that's a requirement, either. A clan wyter has a connection to the children of the clan, probably after a formal presentation of the child to the clan and the wyter, but certainly without the infant sacrificing a point of POW. (A droplet of blood might be involved, though, or a piece of the umbilical, or...)

But what exactly enables a wyter to target an individual as a member of its community?

Mp sacrifice perhaps?

22 minutes ago, Joerg said:

In standard Sartarite cities like Jonstown or Wilmskirk, guilds take the role of clans and temples when it comes to land ownership inside the city walls. I suppose that New Pavis doesn't differ much in this regard, although the Pavis Cult with its Second Age traditions will have had its say.

That's one reason why I am talking about omnibus guilds. Looking at Wilmskirk, which is known for its many crafters and artisans, it is quite likely that those crafters and artisans are organized in something resembling a clan with occupational "bloodlines", where the various occupation speciality groups contribute to a guild ring which then fields a guild master (lika that Flatnose guy from Sartar High Council) for the city ring (or in that case, even the city rex aka mayor).

Which means that Brygga Scissortongue, as the mayor, would have the Orlanth Rex cult behind her (at least when the Lunars don't suppress it).

The Swordmasters may be an adjunct to the local, regional or "national" (supra-tribal, e.g. Sartarite) temple of Humakt, and the Horsemasters an adjunct to Elmal (which Monrogh may or may not have carried over to Yelmalio, but certainly not to the Zola Fel Valley Sun Dome Temple which doesn't really have horses).

Not every craftsman will be part of the Sartarite mother guilds - I would imagine that a majority of the tanners in Pavis have a Beast Nomad background. Same with butchers and other such nomad-adjacent skills. Question is, are they (forced to be) members of the local guild?

In RQG's POW economy, demanding a POW sacrifice to join a wyter should at least be rewarded with a chance to regain POW from those worship services. (A similar argument can be done for Spirit Cult membership, or hero worship.) Or one can leave these POW donations and returns alone, and find some other measurable criterion for this increased form of belonging.

Yeah, there were some threads on the forums a while ago, and iirc mayors and such are in Orlanth Rex.

The weaponmasters in Pavis come from cults that are hostile to each other, so my guess is that the guild exists only to keep track of the weaponmasters, and they don't really form a community as such.

The tanners are officially in a guild, and looking at the HQ Pavis book, they only work in Badside, but don't live there. I put the butchers in the same guild to bolster its numbers.

I don't think that every worshipper is required to sacrifice POW to join a wyter. In my Wolf pirate campaign it was a requirement in the group's ship to keep up the wyter's POW.

One of the problems about the Pavis guilds is that there are too many of them for such a small place, which is a common fantasy trope. At least if we look at the numbers on HQ Pavis Gateway to Adventure p. 152. There are 25 guild elders in the town, and since Hallarax is the elder of two guilds, there are at least 26 guilds. Wyters need at least 50 worshippers, and only half of the adults are in guilds as full members or dependants, so unless children are recruited, there wouldn't be enough people to give wyters enough worshippers. And even if most of the unnamed guilds were axed, some of the guilds from official sources like eg. the Jewelers Guild would still be too small to have enough worshippers for a wyter.

Imo guilds should definitely have wyters. But I also think that communities smaller than 50 people should exist too.

Do all guilds in Pavis have a wyter?

2 hours ago, Jape_Vicho said:

Well, 00 does not mean a hard prohibition, but if you want to talk realistic a Dululz would not be able to ride a horse, as most of the work you need to do in order to ride it is done with the legs, and Durulz's are too short for that. Ofc ducks themselves are not realistic and you can do whaterver you wish. What I would do is give him other equipement to make up for that, maybe a cool enchanted canoe, a powerful iron sword or something like that. Otoh a duck should be able to ride a chariot, even though he might need to stand upon a tool in order to see anything, or maybe his chariot is drawn by animals smaller than a horse.

It could be done in mahout style. One driver, one noble warrior, perhaps a tail gunner too.

The duck thane could also have two slaves and a shield:

10 hours ago, HreshtIronBorne said:

I have some players that wanted to roll up some Noble Durulz. The equipment list has two riding animals but, the Bestiary has Ducks with 00 as their Ride skill. Are Ducks incapable of riding animals, or is it just uncommon for them? Can they ride giant frogs like the newtlings in Prax? (I seem to remember newtlings in traskers somewhere.)

 

The other skill that shows up is Drive chariot, which i think would also be rad for ducks. Maybe some sorta lizard drawn chariot or something?

Perhaps one like this:

Maybe the priests are just lazy buggers and you have to serve in their household for a week.

2 minutes ago, Dragon said:

Why are we worried about getting bound spirits to become lay members or initiates in order to learn new spirit magic spells?

This is a thread about munchkinnery! The much easier answer is in RQG: RiG. page 368. "Any adventurer defeating a spirit in combat may gain one of its spirit magic spells (player’s pick). If the spirit possesses a variable point spell, the adventurer may gain possession of as many points in the spell as the spirit possesses."

If an adventurer can do it, anyone can. And every living being has a spirit. So just have the priest summon a cult spirit with the spell you want, command your bound spirit to engage in spirit combat (or with a priest who knows the spell) and defeat said spirit. You may need some buffing spells e.g. Spirit Screen, Spirit Block. If your priest doesn't agree, go talk to the local shaman about a spirit with the spell. An hour for a summons, a few rolls, and voila, your bound spirit learns the spell. Why bother with wasting a whole week?

I do note that the quote above and the context in that section is not specific about whether 'defeating' requires the spirit to be driven to 0 MP or simply to have one round where the learning spirit is a 'winner' and the defeated spirit is a 'loser'. I suspect it is the former, as it seems to be clarified in 'Reaching 0 Magic Points'. "Any adventurer defeating a spirit in combat may learn its magic, forcing it to teach them any spells it knows,..." That context is pretty clear that it is at 0 MP.

Which, of course, makes you wonder about the requirement that learning a spell from a priest requires a week. The week is supposed to involve teaching you how to cast the spell, and making foci. But if that was really necessary, then an adventurer who drove a spirit to 0 MP and gained possession of as many points in the spell as the spirit possesses, could not actually USE said spell. It would take up CHA, but you couldn't cast it, because you didn't spend a whole week learning how and making foci.

 

Yeah, I've wondered about the week too. RQ3's rules were much more logical.

23 minutes ago, Dragon said:

This seems to be in the spirit of the game. I recall in Snake Pipe Hollow that the broo Disease Master had inflated his temple to a larger size by getting the mass of mindless Disease Spirits to count as worshippers (they only have POW). So, Umbroli should likewise qualify. Note: I have the RQ2 and RQ3 versions of SPH, so YGMV.

Official scenarios rarely have enough worshippers for the shrines and temples in them. The Snakepipe Hollow is a nice exception that has an explanation for it. So it's definitely in the spirit of the game to inflate the worshipper numbers with spirits and the like. Eg. elementals, former worshippers' souls, etc.

2 hours ago, Joerg said:

So, are elementals initiated? And will they donate POW? Do you have to summon them in order for them to worship, or do they show up anyway (like that storm of subservient spirits observed by Biturian at Pairing Stones)?

Wouldn't the elementals technically be parts of the elemental gods? They wouldn't worship themselves, but they would be drawn to where Air/Earth etc. are worshipped.

On 6/27/2020 at 7:27 PM, HreshtIronBorne said:

With the latest ruling from the Rules Questions Thread spells can be defensively boosted with MP. Which adds a whole layer of complexity to determining and dismantling magical defenses. Instead of a Humakti with 100 MP in storage casting one bonkers Sword Trance he is in fact incentivised to spend at least a handful of MP to bolster each spell. I would spend 10(5 RP worth) or 12(RP worth) per spell to beef them up to withstand Dispel 8s or Dismiss 4s. This eats up large chunks of resources rather quickly but, it doesn ensure that one spell stays up. 

 

I alao think this is sort of self balancing, someone brought up in another thread that a year long Extension of Shield 13 with a buttload of MP for dispel resist is amazing and almost impossible for an individual opponent to deal with. It ALSO basically remove your ability to be healed fast enough to not die or lose a limb, or maybe even be healed at all.

Hadn't read this thread in a while, but while browsing I saw this post. Powerful Shield spells pumped full of mps are p. much impossible to dispel, but they don't make the characters immortal. In my campaign a pc Sword of Humakt who had both Shield and Sword Trance on, was hit by a critical arrow, and would have died if his allied spirit hadn't succeeded in a divine intervention with its last rp by rolling 01. If your players routinely use powerful spells, and you want to keep the combat exciting, make the antagonists use missile weapons and tactics. Then even bandits/militia/trollkins can be challenging opponents for Rune Lords.

57 minutes ago, Akhôrahil said:

If we believe in the QA thread, repeating crossbows are impressively advanced. I always pictured them like the Chinese type, with a top-loaded gravity-feeding magazine that you need to insert bolts into one at a time by hand, but according to Scotty, they are loaded with actual bolt-clips into an internal magazine mechanism, en bloc or even stripper-clip style. If we go by this reasoning, dwarves ought to be more than capable of creating, say, a belt-fed and waterwheel-powered fully automatic crossbow as well (although this would by necessity be a static installation).

The mobile version could have water elementals.