Thaz

17 minutes ago, Akhôrahil said:

I'm thinking Furrier for craft skill rather than leatherworking (making leather in antiquity is a bloody awful business, and not something you do out in the wilds), but the idea is the same.

IMG the goto leather/padding equivalent for Orlanthi is actually sheepskin. Perfect for under metal armour (if you are high status) and decently effective for the Fyrd as is. Strong Hat, Shield,  Sheepskin plus Spear and/or Axe and/or Scram(shortsword or dagger) and there ya go. I imagine following the various defeats of the Lunar Armies by 1626 there's a fair amount of Lunar or Tarsh loot floating about as well. 

I do think hunters need some love.

Leather Crafting, Butchery, Peaceful cut, Devise (Trapping in Dark and Storm season!) etc.  Plus their cults do seem a bit weak. I mean I know balance isnt a thing. But still. 

Ok I've read the other thread now and it certainly does imply that just about everyone gets a weekly RP reup _if_ they can take part in a all day worship ceremony.

At this point the limiting factor is availability of a Priest, God Talker or Rune Lord  and available shrine/sanctify spell.

For Players the issue is that each cults weekly holy day is a different day. So If your party is willing to take a weeks downtime in a Town or City with the major temples/shrines then it's not an issue. But it enforces downtime. I've no issue with that. Once you have a worship leading PC it gets even easier if other players are in an allied cult or join up (if allowed) and sanctify on the move (assuming the worship leader is able to keep enough RP to cast it!) but that's rather situational and at least in the campaigns I've seen players have tended to be quite diverse compared to RQ3 and HQ/HW where being all from the same clan is common. We have praxian's, sartarites, esrolians and very few fellow cultists in the 2-3 groups I've observed. And Orlanth and Ernalda are actually pretty rare choices for players. (I have none in the game I GM :- Humakti, LM, Yelmalio/Elmal, Issaries(and will go Gustbran or Heller) and Yinkin. In the game I play in we have one Vingan and another Ernaldan who's actually looking to go shaman. The remainder are Humakti, Stormbull, LM, CA etc). Players tend to gravitate to different cults so they all get their own little niche.

For the world at large:- Bless Crops. Either house-rule it to Priests and God Talkers and RuneLevel only OR 

Looking back at KoDP Computer game:- It's entirely possible to use Magic to improve crops or herds or whatever but it's a major commitment Clan/Tribal of resources to do so. So how does this model into RQG?

Well you need a rune level worship leader who's pretty much going to be nailed down for a while and possibly more importantly you need 10+ worshippers out all day and who can get out and do the casting. Elders would make sense. It's totally worth doing if you can find yourself the appropriate rune level type. I've no issues with that.

The idea that people can't put aside one day a week for no work religion only is very very 21st century. 

I've seen farmers let hay get rained on because working on the sabbath is a sin. 

Or it geeks refuse to do an upgrade out of hours because Saturday and they were orthodox. 

And in glorantha there is an actual honest to gods and goddesses upside!!!!! 

Of course people will take a day off to worship. God's are real. Lookit I can see Orlanth mum right over there. 

Of course.... If you're Storm Bull you ain't aiming to die any other way but with your boots on, axe swinging and a pile of dead chaos around you. 

It just doesn't have to be week 1

If he can pick it up, he can use it. 

42 minutes ago, Rodney Dangerduck said:

Correct.  But, with 13 Associated cults, that's still more than one day a week.  

Except there isn't a single city, including nochet, that has all 13 together. 

So still no. 

1 hour ago, HreshtIronBorne said:

Orlanth has 13 associated cults, 5 of them aren't detailed in the core rulebook. An orlanthi can refill some RP at least twice every week by joining Issaries and Ernalda Minor Holy Days. 

No. You only get rp from associated cults on seasonal and above days 

19 hours ago, Marc said:

Yeah, that works for cults with a Holy Day each week.  According to the RAW though, that's only Babeester Gor, Eiritha( maybe, could just be for priestesses ), Ernalda, and Issaries.  None of the other cults in the core book mention weekly holy days.

This is an important point I think people missed. Honestly I dont think it's a major issue. Combined with David Scott's excellent point about _cost_ of spells your average Orlanthi (culture not cult) is going to have 2-5 RP and only a handful of non common spells. 

18 minutes ago, Jon Hunter said:

Where we don't change the number of initiates in the world to justify the system. 

I don't think this has anything to do with your other points. Frankly I'm going to leave that as 'that would be a ecumenical matter' and note that it appears no matter what the official policy is everyone seems to be writing and playing with the same levels of magical availability as we've ever seen. 

That aside this seems to be a solution in search of a problem. There is no issue with Glorantha being highly magical and as has, I think, been shown in this discussion there isn't a huge amount of Rune Magic being thrown about. Even with Seasonal Top Ups it's really not a big deal and players should tread cautiously as most adults will have access to a 2-5 points depending on age and status. The GOOD point about common rune magic is that it means those are a given. As such your average sheep herder is quite likely to have access to something scary should the Trolls/Lunars/MurderhoboPC's try anything and not just the much more regularly cast Bless Crops and Heal Wound style spells that he's actively going to use which is the danger of your version. It's the magical equivalent of the farmer having a shotgun under the bed which discourages robbery. 

End of the day YGMV but I don't see the need to tweak what we're seeing in published form or what I'm writing. 

I suspect that the reasons for Brother Dog not being a herder is simply thematic.

Greg and co were very influenced by the American plains and the Cowboys and Native Americans being with herds of animals. Generally speaking Native Americans didn't use dogs to hunt larger game or to herd and dogs have never been much of a feature for Cowboys or Gaucho's because as you say they eat meat.

Quite a few Great Plains Tribes _did_ eat Dog.

Quite a few tribes used camp dogs as guard dogs. And that makes a lot of sense for Prax. 

I was referring to Apple Lane being missing a chunk of its elders/authority figures/people you'd expect to have more RP and that this is also true for some of the Scenario's in PP rather than the general innate/rp situation....but I believe that also is true (for the bits I've seen at the stage they were at that time)  

15 minutes ago, Akhôrahil said:

This simply isn't true. What's presented in the scenarios is that average fyrdmen, average herders (age 21+, like PCs) and average cattle raiders - that is, average Orlanthi men - have 3 Rune Points. It's remarkably consistent.

I'm not getting into Canon wars with the Chaosium staff and writers :- However IMG in Sartar and in Prax at least the majority of the adult population are in fact initiated* and have a few RP. Elders may have more but of course there's been a serious war and famine recently so there might not be many elders about.  This is reflected in Apple Lane where we're missing a Thane and Merchant and Red-Smith and Weaponsmaster. Also in at least some of the forthcoming Pegasus Plateau I believe. 

*Of course there are a fair few Shamanistic faiths about, especially in Prax. 

6 minutes ago, Akhôrahil said:

Yes for Rune Lords ("A Rune Lord can replenish Rune points by leading holy day sacrifices, and by performing other sacrifices to the god"), no for Initiates.

This can work in a pinch - an independent or tribal god-talker comes to visit the shrine now and then to maintain it and lead worship.

And remember you only get pow gain rolls for _leading_ worship. So for example there are at least 3 Ernalda priestesses in Clearwine (according to TSR) so they will be motivated to get out of town and lead worship elsewhere rather than just taking turns leading services back at home. At least outside of Storm/Dark season because who the heck wants to be on the road preaching to hillbillies when it's cold enough to freeze the water out of cider....

The Lunar's (and likely others) also made extensive use of Mercenaries who vary in formation, discipline and composition (From Tusk Rider Warbands to groups like The Company of the Manticore described in The Smoking Ruins)  

22 minutes ago, Akhôrahil said:

It's not just the holy place itself - you need someone to officiate the worship. If you're in a cult like Yinkin or Odayla, you may well not have even one God-Talker in the clan.

Which leads to the following points

a)Can an innate or RuneLord lead worship in the absence of Priest or God-talker (Note you may have a God-Talker who is also Priest of one of the Big Cults) (This was asked but not answered in Rune Points a while ago)

b) People may travel about to lead worship doing a round of clan Tula's etc. Especially for bigger cults (this doesn't help your Hunters much but I could see a lone Hunter Priest covering many tulas)

c)Places like Blue Boar Fort are where old hunters go to pass their days. Your more likely to find a God-talker or Priest there so visiting to pay your respects on a HHD or SHD and attend worship makes sense, especially for Hunters who are by nature fairly mobile and self sufficient. 

7 minutes ago, Akhôrahil said:

1d6 Rune Points seasonally mostly keeps new PCs going (assuming one adventure per season). When they start to accumulate more, they really need access to proper Cult worship. Which is good, because it's obvious plot fodder.

Agreed. However it rather answers the OP "How to deal with this much rune magic?".  It's really not an issue. 

The Cults book content is done as it's been previewed and a few people have 'Beta' copies from Con's. Layout and Art and Printing of course take time.

It's tricky balancing core product like GM Guide and Cults (and the magic book) with the demand for playable content (Like the GM's pack and TSR) and world description. Not everyone is a old hand with tons of back catalogue of scenarios and adventures and world description to run. I think the balance is about right. Besides us Grognards there are a LOT of people coming either fresh to the fold or coming back to it after a long hiatus who dont have their old books. 

If I were starting fresh now the Colymar based campaign of GM pack and TSR is a good place to start (although I might well just use Griffin Mountain and circle back to Sartar and Prax in due course once the Grand Sartar Campaign is out).    

I'll stick my head over the wall and say Hi as well.

DomT I'm a member of Beer with Teeth and also a long time gamer/GM. In particular RQ and CoC and the like. Heck I was on the old Digest but dropped out in the HW/HQ days as it was simply wasn't my thing (even if I helped fund the first version).

Active on the FB page as well.  

10 minutes ago, Akhôrahil said:

Also, Associated Cult status is your friend. Most of the smaller cults have a big Associated Cult. 

That only gets you RP refresh on Seasonal Holy days mind not weekly (if the big associated cult has weekly holy days, as previously pointed out most do not.

I'd also expect Priests to do a fair bit of travelling. So for example Clearwine and Runegate have temples and multiple priests at each (According to the Smoking Ruins quite a few). So both to service the outlying population and scoop up POW rolls the clergy are going to trek out to places like Apple Lane (at least in good weather of Fire, Earth and maybe Storm) to conduct worship for the laity and initiates who dont have a local priest.  At least IMG.  Or the rural types are going to treck in to take part in the big ceremonies. Without Spoiling The Smoking Ruins there is a big Oralnth/Ernaldan ritual described that various bigwigs may or may not take part in described. This sort of thing could easily draw in people from outlying Clans of the Tribe. 

6 minutes ago, Akhôrahil said:

 the rules say "In many cults, initiates may not become shamans or sorcerers", but then, this isn't actually in any cult description as far as I can tell. 

 

Yup and of course some Spirit cults may be allied to more traditional cults. I can see major restrictions on Sorcery ...but the line between shaminism and the divine gets really blured.

As you say, I guess the Cults book or the GM guide may clear this up.  

I'd agree with akhôrahil , observational evidence suggests otherwise at least in Sartar.

I'd also add that travel to your local town or city was common enough in Earth's ancient times. Greek Plays are full of references to yokels bringing firewood or charcoal into town to sell and in fact it was a major part of their economy as urbanites had no other source of fuel. Poor people not being able to afford fuel to heat their homes and having to hang out at the bath house to keep warm for example. Rich people having their tenants or slaves collect firewood or make charcoal of it and then haul it to town to fuel their own homes and to sell the excess was a major source of income. Food and fuel has to come from somewhere. 

6 hours ago, Diana Probst said:

That town 2 days away, where we're not part of the community?

I can see adventurers doing that, sure.  Not so much other people.  Humans don't act in their own economic interest in the real world.  Why expect fantasy to be different?

I don't think it's common, weekly affair, but looking at Sartar then I simply don't belive people don't go into town now and then. 

For a start it would require a huge increase in hauliers shifting agricultural products to the market. 

It'll probably be a big event in their lives going to the big town but a few trips in your life.... Of course. 

I mean if you're saying a apple Lane farmer never goes to clearwine or rune gate I'm not buying it. 

Fyrd members certainly do on occasion. 

Tarsh War also gives unit descriptions etc from a bit earlier

I'd put it at medieval equivalent rather than bronze age. Frankly Medical care and crops etc are quite good in comparison to bronze age or even medieval. 

heck I know people wishing for gloranthan level health care NOW