Godlearner

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Perhaps they stick to sorcery, but they still worship gods, in their peculiar way.

Sure, they drop a point of POW for all common divine and 1 special spell and have a chance for DI. Makes sense to me.

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i expect an old scholar sorcerer as more % than POW x 5 in read write and in spells he dedicated his life, that is for the age

and the major advantage of sorcery is  the opposite of spirit magic :  you are less limited, in duration, range, power.

 

Exactly, but not the young sorcerer. IMO, a sorcerer adventurer will need as much POW expended and previous experience as an average Priest.  Using Sorcery as Spirit Magic is possible, you would have to cast it before the fight start and pretty much without using Intensity. But, the difficulty there is a limited selection of spells based on the Rune/Technique mastery. Techniques are less of the problem since taking Command gives access to all the others, but Elemental  and other runes make things restrictive.

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the young sorcerer (a pc for example) is not efficient in fight, at least less efficient than any young warrior.

Young sorcerer? There is no such thing. The requirements are prohibitive. For 3 to 5 POW you could cast somewhat similar spells as spirit magic at x2 times the cost and in at least 2 rounds and your chance to cast is equal to the lesser of the spell % or you Read/Write skill which are both likely to be lower than your POW x5.

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it's always going to feel a little hacky and will occupy a much different space than either spirit or rune magic in the party.

But it does not have to. You can make it 'playable' and still have it " system for old men in schools and towers". It obviously takes time and a lot magic points, but it should not feel like to use it you need to hack off one of your limbs and spin in a circle for a minute before casting a spell. 

28 minutes ago, Richard S. said:

Sorry to say, but I highly doubt you'll influence much, both because a lot of these flaws and gaps have already been brought up before, and also because I believe Jeff already has a mostly complete manuscript for western sorcery and the invisible god.

I must say, that since its inception it seems that Sorcery was meant to fail as a magic system system for PCs. I hope what Jeff puts out changes my opinion.

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There's a perfectly simple way around that - have the character design a Sorcery Spell Matrix Enchantment spell - based off the Magic Point Matrix Enchantment.

Sure, then why not keep the entirety of the Sorcery rules from RQ3. Its basically the same at the core, with out the Arts, but including Mastery of Runes and Techniques.

3 hours ago, French Desperate WindChild said:

we have no true/full  sorcery rules, only rules to start LM with "weird magic"

I would say there is only one conclusion : there is no good answer about sorcery enchantment.

People can extrapolate (what is the cost, etc...) reading sorcery inscription and spirit/rune enchantment but there is a risk that extrapolation could be refuted by official rules  when they will be published.

 

 

 

I am hoping to influence the official rules before they are released, by pointing out gaps and flaws in what is available.

45 minutes ago, Kloster said:

In fact, an inscription is a Sorcery spell matrix that is usable only by it's maker, but that don't need a spell to be created. 

You mean that is does not need a separate spell to be created.

The enchanter, who must know the spell, must sacrifice 1 point of POW to create the inscription.

This is exactly what stops it from being a matrix.

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Spirit magic gets used less. The character without allied spirits go to combat usually with only one spell on.

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Same here. I'm wondering if going back to the old 5mn would restore the previous level of magic usage.

 

Yes, Rune Magic is a lot more common. With combats being short, people go all out. 

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Actually I was quite surprised to see Vasana start with a 10MP storage enchantment in the players RQG book, such an item was definitively 'Rune Lord level' before. 

Very much a YGWV thing. Most of the games I played in have PCs with at least 15 extraneous magic points, either from spirits of magic point matrices. Same for NPCs who are initiates or above.  

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You could maybe put the effect of a sorcery spell into a potion with another spell, like using a sorcery spell to brew a potion that taps the SIZ of whoever drinks it, but because of how intellectual sorcery is I don't believe that you can condense and bottle up the knowledge of a spell for anyone to use.

Yes, we are talking semantics here, the effect of a sorcery spell can be stored in potion.

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Inscriptions are just like any other enchantment in that regard. They give a lot of long-term benefits, but they're expensive as all hell.

Agreed, but the difference, at least according to the current rules, is that an Inscription is only usable to the sorcerer who made it.

12 hours ago, Richard S. said:

Grimoires, the cornerstone of sorcery, are going to be covered when proper Malkioni sorcery does, though that book is unfortunately pretty far down the road. It seems like they'll probably just be books that give knowledge of spells, possibly even a straight +% bonus if they're anything like the skill books Jeff posted about a while back. Another option is that they're books of inscriptions. As for sorcery "matrices", that's basically what inscriptions are, an external place to hold spells so they don't take up space in your noggin. And yes, like with other enchantments you can spend extra POW to mess with who can use them (though in this case the default is "caster", not "everyone", so each extra point would expand the pool rather than shrinking it, though even at "everyone" level only a sorcerer could actually use it). Spirits probably can't hold spells, since the sorcerer either needs to have it in their mind or be able to read it (it is a literacy-based discipline). Scrolls would probably be forms of inscriptions, though they wouldn't be one-use unless the inscribing sorcerer somehow worked that into the enchantment. You can't put sorcery spells into potions, though doubtless there's several spells out there that deal with alchemy and making potions.

The Inscriptions currently can be made into anything and are usable only by the sorcerer who made them. Having them be expanded into matrixes for additional POW is a bit lame. Sorcery is already very POW intensive.

If the grimoires give knowledge of spells and possibly even a straight +% bonus that would be what is really needed (IMO).

Spirits not holding spells is something I always felt was correct; at best it is incomplete knowledge. Perhaps one can learn a spell from a spirit, but that you would still rely on ones abilities to cast it.

In regard to scroll, I would really like to see them and have sorcerers the ability to make them without use of POW. Perhaps have them count against the casters CHA until used?

If one can put a Spirit spell or a Rune spell into a potion, one should be able to put a Sorcery spell into one. (IMO)

The rule book specifies that sorcery spells can be inscribed into an item, but these are only usable by the sorcerer who created them. Are there any other way to store a sorcery spell? Are there sorcery matrixes? Can a spirit have a knowledge of a spell for  a sorcerer to cast? Are there such things as precast one-use sorcery spells, like scroll or a potion? Are there actual Grimoires, or spell books? 

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Adulthood initiation is a different thing from initiating to a god. The initiation you go through when passing into adulthood is best thought of as "pantheon initiation", after which you are now a lay member of the cultural god(s). If you want to go further, you can dedicate yourself to an individual god, but it comes with much more responsibility (in heroquest, it was abstracted as a 30% time commitment as opposed to the 10% time commitment of a lay member).

 Yes, I am well aware of the meaning. I do not agree with the "first step into the priesthood" idea. It can be the first step, but it does not have to.

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 person's life that most average humans won't bother taking regardless of where they live

I see it the other way. Most humans become initiates during the coming of age ceremony, except in the West.

I asked this exact question before and your suggestion is basically 'YGWV'.

On 2/26/2021 at 2:15 PM, ChrisJ said:

I just finished running an all sorc mini campaign - I kept all the other rules for INT the same but set starting Free INT to max human INT (AKA 21).  Worked out pretty well.  Apart from the weekly castings most spells averaged about 14 pts of intensity due to the long casting times.  Two of the Sorcerers had INT 16 - the big impact to these sorc was that they could only have 5 Runes/Techniques, so they had to select their runes carefully, and expect to cast using extra MP for some spells.

I am adding a homebrew rule that that Magi would also use their racial max INT to determine the number of runes/techniques they can master.

ChrisJ, I agree with you that it is very confusing and need some clear examples using three runes/techniques spell.

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Unless otherwise specified in the spell description, it costs 1 additional magic point to increase the intensity of a spell by one level; or double the amount of magic points if it uses a Rune or technique that the sorcerer has not mastered. 

This is how I am reading it:

If the sorcerer has mastered all of them, then the cost appears to be 1+1+1 MPs and +1 MP per intensity

If the sorcerer has mastered two of them, then the cost is 1+1+2 MPs and +4 MPs per intensity

If the sorcerer has mastered only one, then the cost is 1+2+2 MPs and +5 MPs per intensity

If the sorcerer has mastered none, then the cost is 2+2+2 MPs and +6 MPs per intensity

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1 if all the runes and techniques in the spell are mastered and 2 if any of the runes and techniques in the spell are unmastered

I would love this interpretation because the cost would then be:

If the sorcerer has mastered all of them, then the cost appears to be 1+1+1 MPs and +1 MP per intensity

If the sorcerer has mastered two of them, then the cost is 1+1+2 MPs and +2 MPs per intensity

If the sorcerer has mastered only one, then the cost is 1+2+2 MPs and +2 MPs per intensity

If the sorcerer has mastered none, then the cost is 2+2+2 MPs and +2 MPs per intensity

Yes, but this way you can do both.

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As for MP cost - all the PC's had MP matrix or Spirits in POW storage Crystals.  Only 1 of them had a TAP spell (the Macabean had a Tap Moonlight spell similar in Power to the steal Breath spell - although my interpretation of that spell is that the duration only applies to how long excess MP remain available, and only 1d6 comes per round up to the limit of the number of d6 indicated by intensity).

Absolutely. MPs for Sorcerers are a must. That is why I added this spell in the JC Denarius the Minter supplement 

AID (Magic, Command)

2 pt (Ranged, Instant)

If successful in casting this spell, the caster transfers magic points equal to the spells Intensity to the target of the spell. These magic points can replenish any spent by the target and any additional, above the targets POW, will stick around dissipating at a rate of 1 magic point per 10 minutes. These additional magic points are not added to POW for purposes of defense or offense but can be used to cast spells by the target.

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using a 3 Rune/Technique spell  with at least one rune un-mastered is 4MP+42MP

Unless otherwise specified in the spell description, it costs 1 additional magic point to increase the intensity of a spell by one level; or double the amount of magic points if it uses a Rune or technique that the sorcerer has not mastered. 

Based on some interpretations it would 4MP + 28MP. But your point on spell casting in combat is well taken. This is where bound spirits and spirit magic matrices come into play in a big way.  The only way to cast a Sorcery spell in combat would be a two rune/technique spell and with an Intensity of 5 and that would take two rounds.

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I kept all the other rules for INT the same but set starting Free INT to max human INT (AKA 21)

That would be another way to equalize.

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Two of the Sorcerers had INT 16 - the big impact to these sorc was that they could only have 5 Runes/Techniques

Why would this be a limit?

EDIT: Never mind:

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For each point of INT above 13, the sorcerer can learn one more Rune or one more technique. 

2 minutes ago, French Desperate WindChild said:

5% chance

And Impales 20% chance

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Yes, they can, ... with a probability of casting the spell of roughly 20%, compared to the 50-90% the master has.

Does not really matter since these spells will be cast ahead of time with duration going into days, weeks and longer.

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Depends on the armor: Broadsword is 1D8+1. That means an average damage of 4.5+1-2.5=3. That means somebody with 4 AP will be often be hit, but rarely be wounded by the 8 STR 8 SIZ master, and 4 AP is easy to get.

The armor is not going to matter as the criticals will bypass it

7 hours ago, Runeblogger said:

I think experienced sorcerers will have created inscriptions for all the spells they know so they can use their full INT to cast them.

Sure, and if they have an INT of 14 they are always behind the curve. Its still possible for a novice sorcerer to cast a bigger spell than an Archmage.

A  size 8 and str 8 weapon master will still beat a size 18 and str 18 novice every time.