Kloster

18 minutes ago, PhilHibbs said:

Could a creature with natural skin armour wear woad?

Of course. You can't wear other armor, but natural armor is not worn.

19 minutes ago, PhilHibbs said:

I don't think so, magic items are a game mechanical representation and so are appropriately dealt with in a game system forum. The economics of magical items in RuneQuest are very different to HQ or 13G or KoDP.

I agree with you but the last question (the one I was answering) was about loitering corpses after a battle.

I think this should be purely cultural and depends mostly on the cults. I don't think we have much info on the subject in any RQ supplement. Perhaps is it better to ask the question on the Glorantha forum.

RQ3 is using skill for category of weapons: The 77% you have in broadsword is the same you have with all the 1H swords and you gain nothing for weapons belonging to other categories.

RQG is giving you half your skill in your best weapons in all the other weapons of the same category, and nothing for weapons belonging to other categories.

When playing RQG, I use RQG rule. For all other BRP games, I am using RQ3 rule.

7 minutes ago, coffeemancer said:

does it say that they got all their gear back? or does it mention  just one heroic trojan having his arms returned with him?

From memory, Homer doesn't wrote about the rank and files, but only of the heroes, whatever the side, but they were recovered with their stuff (armor, weapons and regalia).

Hector's funerals lasted several days, during which a truce was in place. For Achilles's ones, games were organized, and Achilles's armor has been disputed between Odysseus and Ajax, meaning it had been recovered with the body. His spear has also been recovered and was brought to Athena's temple.

2 hours ago, coffeemancer said:

sounds like something from modern times. In ye olden days the loser would recieve their dead naked or in their undershirts as even clothing was valuable as loot.

In fact, this is very 'bronze age'. You can find truce for recovering dead bodies and other things in Homer and some egyptian writing (I think I read something like that in a book about the battle of Kadesh).

2 hours ago, coffeemancer said:

Also consider that returning any gear to the enemy can needlessly prolong the war

If it is a sacred activity, you don't care. Illyad describes a 10 years war, and greeks accepted an extra length of war if it allowed them to recover the dead bodies and perform the rituals.

4 hours ago, Shiningbrow said:

Just on the topic of getting NPCs to donate their POW - what would the actual player (PC) say to them? I don't think it should be as meta-gamey as "I'd like you to give me some of your POW"...

I would say something like "Do you accept to participate in my enchant activities if I give you 10 cows in exchange? It would engage you to act as if you wanted to worship Orlanth to learn a spell from me. You would receive the cows instead of the spell.".

14 hours ago, Godlearner said:

They Tap Chaos to destroy the Chaos Rune and become chaotic due to their inability, eventually, to contain the chaotic energies within ... because of the tapped Chaos.

That's more or less what I have understood. Thanks.

Not having the guide, but re re rereading GoG and this forum:

2 hours ago, lordabdul said:

Note that, from what I understand from the Guide, casting Tap-based spells isn't immoral or evil per se. It looks to me like what the majority of Malkioni schools are doing is purposefully limiting their Tapping powers by not learning the Tapping technique itself. But they can still cast Tap-based spells by deriving Tapping knowledge from the other techqniques.... GtG v1 p48:

"However, the principle is inherent in Malkioni philosophy and is easily derived from the logical techniques the Malkioni use to summon, command, or combine Runes."

This is what I have understood.

2 hours ago, lordabdul said:

In effect (and in terms of RQG rules), they are limiting themselves to twice the casting time and twice the MP spend, so as to not get power-hungry and be tempted by the dark side, so to speak. On the same page, the example Debaldan School of Water Sorcery seems to teach Tap Water to its sorcerers, but without teaching the Tapping technique itself: they probably teach Tap Water through using, say, the Command technique or whatever, at double cost. In comparison,

Same.

2 hours ago, lordabdul said:

I get the feeling that the Boristi and Galvosti (p151) do teach Tapping itself (since these schools are "Tappers" and specifically referred to as "heresies of Malkionism") but I'm not sure...

According to GoG, yes, those may tap. Borists may tap chaos beings and Galvosti may tap non Malkioni.

3 hours ago, Godlearner said:

Tapping is the sorcerous conversion of a local manifestation of a Rune into raw magical energy, which then can be used by the sorcerer to power other spells. For example, a sorcerer learned in the Stasis Rune, might tap the Stasis out of a rock, reducing it to dust, or another might tap the Life out of a tree, killing the orchard to get magical power. Most Malkioni, except the Brithini, Vadeli, and Waertagi, consider Tapping to be immoral and evil.

Thanks. Is there anything about what are thinking non Malkioni?

30 minutes ago, PhilHibbs said:

180° out I'm afraid, they can tap chaos because they are chaotic. Or vice versa.

Possible. The only think I seem to remember (apart of the part in GoG) is that others think they may be corrupted by using magical energy coming from chaos by their tapping, but I may be wrong. The anti chaos stuff is purely my personal reading.

3 hours ago, lordabdul said:

I haven't found any source linking Tapping to Chaos? It's considered immoral and evil, sure, but not Chaotic AFAICT.

The only link to Chaos I know of is the Borists that can only Tap chaos beings, making them anti-chaos.

9 hours ago, Godlearner said:

This is the one sorcery spell that did not have this, others all had either Intensity vs something or POW vs something rolls.

You are right, nothing is written. We nonetheless have it played with the POW vs POW roll, which, combined with Touch range, means they were rarely used.

25 minutes ago, Runeblogger said:

Because you are destroying Air for your own gain, which is the same as advancing entropy little by little.

In that case, you are speaking of Tap Air (and I quite agree), but we were speaking of Tap in a more generic way. On steal Breath (=Tap Air), could it be seen as 'asking Orlanth to give you some energy'?

1 hour ago, Godlearner said:

Don't remember, but from when I first started playing Tapping was considered tied to Chaos in my play group.

It was not in mine (hence my question). It was considered evil (as described in GoG), but not Chaos.

1 hour ago, Godlearner said:

Perhaps it was because it was so permanent and had no POW vs POW roll.

As we played (and continue to play) that all attack spells have a POW vs POW except when noted differently (Sunspear for example).

1 hour ago, Godlearner said:

It was one of the most hated spells by players. 

Same for us.

14 minutes ago, lordabdul said:

but yes, they're not overpriced when you consider the amount of content in there, but they're definitely expensive

That's exactly my point, and is the reason I continue to use as reference the RQ3 products that don't cost me anything now because everything has been purchased between '86 and '95. I am not complaining about the price. From what I have heard here, it is worth it. I just can not afford it.

Just as an explanation, the cost of the guide, plus S&H cost is about for me equivalent to 2 weeks of food for me and my family (and I have an above average french salary).

1 minute ago, lordabdul said:

Ah I see, sorry I had missed that. So yeah in that case you may only have to do some research for the grand-parents' era.

Yes, that's what I think.

2 minutes ago, lordabdul said:

Yeah I think that line about monsters' experience is what cemented the very symmetrical and simulationist take that many old RQ players have.

Completely true for me.

3 minutes ago, lordabdul said:

Other mainly took from it that "monsters are people too".

Also true. That means they have lovers passions, interests,... and are managed by the same rules.

4 minutes ago, lordabdul said:

But as for mook NPCs, I would consider the rules to be different if you consider, say, not tracking separate injuries, not playing with hit locations for the little guys (or hand-waving them narratively), and so on.

For mooks, we always had reduced stats and skill sets, but most of the GM have kept the localized wounds.

6 minutes ago, lordabdul said:

Sure but at least you can get the Guide's PDFs.

A bit expensive for a pdf, and the books are far too expensive for my budget.

6 minutes ago, lordabdul said:

Nobody can get RQ3 books except via (sometimes expensive) second hand market.

Of course. We just purchased 30 years ago. For new players, the guide is the right choice and RQ3 is not.

7 minutes ago, lordabdul said:

My point is merely that we should remember to keep these forums friendly to newcomers.

Completely agree here.

30 minutes ago, lordabdul said:

Nobody should go looking for RQ3 rules unless they used to play that game and have the boxes around the house.

As me and the various groups I've been part of have probably 10 complete RQ3 sets (i have 1 AH complete set, 1 GW complete set and 1 complete Oriflam set), but none of us has the guide, this is the only reference we can use.

2 minutes ago, PhilHibbs said:

"Only people could be tapped in RQ3, Tapping was considered bad in RQ3, Therefore only tapping people is bad", seriously?

This is not what I wrote, nor promote. What I say is that if we apply the RQ3 restrictions, Tapping people is forbidden for most sorcerors and we don't know for the rest. Everything else that has been told for now is coming from non RQ sources.

5 minutes ago, PhilHibbs said:

I didn't know where those lines were from, I'm re-quoting them from having heard them referenced in several conversations. They may not be "canon", but they have entered the Gloranthan vernacular. And it's just an explanation of why Tap is considered bad, not whether or not it is considered bad, which it certainly is by the majority of mainstream sorcerers. It occupies a similar space as necromancy in most schools of thought.

Pete Metcalph answered the question. And as I have already explained, I like them, and am not trying to avoid them. As you say, "And it's just an explanation of why Tap is considered bad, not whether or not it is considered bad, which it certainly is by the majority of mainstream sorcerers." but is says it for Malkioni (more properly most of them). It says nothing for non Malkioni that don't know anything and would probably  not care about Malkion's and Zzabur's teachings.

18 minutes ago, Godlearner said:

Aeolians - basically Orlanthi and would not use any Tapping as it is considered Chaos.

Why is it considered Chaos by Orlanthi (we agree Aeolians are slightly special Orlanthi)?

19 minutes ago, Godlearner said:

Arkati - would not use Tapping as they would view it as going down a slippery slope towards Chaos.

Same, why consider it linked to chaos?

20 minutes ago, Godlearner said:

Lunars - already have an association with Chaos, so its more of the individual choice. I would say there are schools which accept it, and other which do not. In fact I see internal conflict between these aka Hong Kong martial arts movies.

This I like (the rest, I don't dislike, but I don't see why it would be seen as linked to chaos).

16 minutes ago, metcalph said:

On the topic of Tap, it stems from Zzabur's revival of the Cosmos.  It is thus organically part of their sorcery and cannot be forbidden.

Social rules prohibiting the use of Tap in Dragon Pass look to me a non-starter as there's no large community of sorcerers* to make the rules.  A sorcerer by himself (such as Urvantarn) can do whatever he wants without philosophical sanction (ie punishments imposed by his fellows as opposed to an outraged populace).  Since nobody has Worship Invisible God, tapping is almost essential knowledge.

This is more how I understand it: There is no social stigmata on actions most (almost all) people don't know it exists.

18 minutes ago, metcalph said:

There are the Lunars of course but since they are close to chaos, they are unlikely to have rules against it (and would actively promote steal breath to freak out the Orlanthi).  

*There are sorcerers in the Holy Country and Black Horse County but they are not very numerous.

Completely agree here.

24 minutes ago, lordabdul said:

The people who handle NPCs using different rules than the PCs, vs those who unify the two. Obviously, a special Chaotic ability granted by a Thanatar heroquest is going to be hard to get for a PC, but "unification" in this case still means "sure you can try... you may not like who you become, though!" (i.e.: the option is available, even if undesirable). Meanwhile, people who handle NPCs with different rules have many different (often good) reasons and methods for this. I assume that a common one is using simplified mook stats and damage rules to speed up large combat, for instance (asymmetric systems that bake this into the rules include Savage Worlds or Numenera... I wish RQG had some official support for it, and I strongly think that the published adventures showing full NPC stat blocks is a huge mistake and a bad example). These kinds of asymmetrical rules can't be applied to the PCs as per point 1, but others kind of special NPC rules can: special weapon stats, unique magic items, heroquest gifts, house rules for new schools of magic, etc.

I think one of the great strength of RQ was that it has always been symmetrical (I remember the 'Monsters have experience too'). But I don't consider having simplified NPCs to be asymmetrical: The rules are still the same.

10 minutes ago, lordabdul said:

As for the OP, one thing to make a good custom Family History for character creation is to just grab a few PDFs (the Guide, the Sourcebook, and Wyrm Footnotes are a good start), and do searches for both the culture and places, and a long batch of searches for each year in the time span that should be covered by the tables. Half the time you'll find important events that are already covered by the RQG rulebook, but the other half of the time you'll find some smaller, localized events or ideas that will help you spice things up for that character.

Culturally speaking, I think the Carmanians have been around for so long, with so much mixing with Dara Happans and Lunars and so on, that you have a rather broad range of options between belonging to some kind of "pure, traditionalist" family (Pelandan?), and belonging to a family with a mixed background and an equally mixed tradition.

Thanks. Thanks. Thanks.

10 minutes ago, lordabdul said:

If you want to avoid bringing sorcery rules in the game, your player's character could be a Humakti-worshipping romanak ("landless warrior") who has a Carmanian twist on his cult, such as a complement of Invisible God worship, slightly different Rune Magic and iconography, and so on.

A kind of Ronin. I like the idea. It can be fun.

11 minutes ago, lordabdul said:

I'm genuinely curious how you're going to bring a Carmanian into your game, assuming it's set in good ol' Sartar/Prax as per the rulebook default.

Like I have already explained, my player wants to play a descendant of the Carmanian settlers in Prax. His family is thus in Prax since 15 years and he came there very young. I will use for him the Praxian history, and as suggested, the Lunar Tarsh cultural package (replacing Tarshite language by Carmanian). For the most important parent and grand parent, I still don't know if we'll stay on the Lunar Tarsh history or if we try to build one for Carmania and lunar heartland.

My old Carmanian character was a Lunar officer whose family ended on the loosing side of a dart war. As a result, he had been 'promoted' as commanding in second of the Lunar garrison in Corflu. Of course, the 'River of Craddles' campaign started during his travel from Pavis to Corflu.

I have not yet though to another reason to (logically) have a Carmanian character in Dragon Pass / Prax, but I am sure there was some in the various regiments and college of magic that were destroyed in Whitewall siege and the Dragonrise. Some may still be there.

2 minutes ago, Godlearner said:

Sounds like useable frame work until a official material is released

Yes, agreed, it is usable for Brithini, Galvosti and Borists. If we apply this and with current RQG rules, that means Brithini can freely use Tap Body, Borists can only use it versus chaotic beings and Galvosti versus non Malkioni. Hrestoli and Rokari should not be able to use it. We know nothing about it's use by Aeolians, Arkati and Lunars, nor anything about Steal Breath use (because those 2 spells are the only one using Tap technique we know now). As RQG is centered on Dragon Pass, that means we know about nothing on this for the vast majority of the sorcerors covered by the rules.

6 hours ago, PhilHibbs said:

"Do not destroy that which you love"

"Love that which the Invisible God created

5 hours ago, Kloster said:

By the way, where have you found those lines?

51 minutes ago, metcalph said:

They are from the How the West was One freeform. I doubt they are part of current Malkionism. 

By the way: Not RQ and not official, but I like them.

4 minutes ago, Godlearner said:

The restrictions are on the use and what is considered to be a perversion of power, and those do apply no matter the rule system.  

Please check my previous post. If we apply RQ3's tapping restrictions (GoG p45), Hrestoli and Rokari are not allowed to tap, Brithini, Borists and Galvosti may tap people with restrictions (and we don't know anything about tapping non living things) and we don't know anything for others, especially non malkioni. And the only usage of tap spells in an official RQ product I remember is in 'Griffin Island', which is non Gloranthan.

I will also redirect you to Pete Metcalph's answer:

45 minutes ago, metcalph said:

They are from the How the West was One freeform. I doubt they are part of current Malkionism. 

30 minutes ago, metcalph said:

They are from the How the West was One freeform.

Thanks for the info. As far as I know, this is not a RQ product.

32 minutes ago, metcalph said:

I doubt they are part of current Malkionism. 

This, I don't know but I believe you. In fact those changes are part of what makes the new supplements needed for us old RQ players.