Kloster

4 hours ago, lordabdul said:

Whatever price per POW we can come up with is the price for the entire business of making an X points enchantment. That's not necessarily the price paid directly to the person sacrificing these points of POW. These people are just, at best, assistants, and they're taking an appropriately low percentage of that price (the enchanter has final word on how that money is allocated).

On this, I can not agree. The 200L/point I spoke is only for the POW. It does not include the cost of the object, nor the cost of the enchant itself. This is why I spoke of base price.

4 hours ago, lordabdul said:

If you consider a weapon making store, the blacksmith will take a high percentage of the price of a sword per point of damage, while the kid who pumps the furnace will only get a few coins. Similarly, the person who helps the master enchanter do their rituals (by sacrificing POW or cleaning the workbench or whatever) will also only get a few coins. The real mastery is in orchestrating the multi-POW-point enchantment, not in giving a point of POW per se. Anybody can sacrifice a point of POW, so it's cheap, of course. Common sense and extrapolation of the setting can therefore align... but see below for another option, however.

I figure that poor people may come by the local temple to donate POW and get a few coins, especially in the week before a holy day. Enchanters may have to adjust their contracting schedule accordingly, where if you order a special magical item, you get it after the next holy day. It would happen even if the enchanter was alone (since they also have to recover their own points), but by having volunteers from the local community, they can take on a few additional orders and spread a bit of wealth. Another common practice might be that the person who ordered the magical object has an appointment to come and provide most of the POW sacrifice in order to get a discount. I also assume that some places in the West make that an expected social obligation, whether it's via an Invisible God worship ceremony or something else.. like donating blood at the local blood blank. Of course, in those places, it might be framed differently because the enchanter would probably keep the benefits (and magical items) to themselves.

Agreed. Good ideas.

4 hours ago, lordabdul said:

Another possible small tweak (which still fits the rules nicely) is to say that the people donating POW have to also know enchantment rituals, since they are participating in one. That way, you could only coerce Rune Masters and other people with access to enchantments... that suddenly becomes a lot harder to get free POW points from other people.

Not RAW, but good ideas.

4 hours ago, lordabdul said:

So as an example (with converted prices), and assuming I didn't make a mistake: a Bladesharp 4 Broadsword would be 50 L (price of the sword) plus 200 L * 50% = 100 L (for the spell) plus 500 L for "additional labour", which gives a grand total of 650 L.

Yes. In fact here, you are in line with my base price story.

4 hours ago, lordabdul said:

Interestingly, Griffin Mountain mentions that such a cool blade would most likely be decorated with silver and gems, and the total price would typically exceed 1000 L in this case. That's good flavour stuff, IMHO, where if you have magical item stores, the prices would be inflated because all the items are "flashy". And if a PC wants to pay the minimum by putting a big spell on a normal item, they would get a judgemental look from the enchanter.

Yes, of course. In addition, the flashy objects will attract attention to thieves, authority, brigands and others.

6 hours ago, Godlearner said:

Or casting it ahead of time to prevent an opponent from casting a similar level Countermagic, Shimmer or Protection?

This is an old classic: Casting a low level spell  that is incompatible with other you know or suspect your target has. In line with casting fanaticism on an opponent (to forbid him casting protection spells), especially if he is mounted (not against Praxians, of course). The target has to dispel/dismiss your spell before casting his own spells. But beware, somebody that receives an unwanted Spirit Screen knows that an ambush has started, so this has to be the last step of ambush prep, just before or better simultaneously with the range attacks.

As far as I have understood, there is no POW vs POW, because you target an area. This is why you can just walk away (if you are still alive, of course).

On 5/4/2020 at 9:26 AM, PhilHibbs said:

If it's in a matrix, it's POWx5, not a rune. So if you need a spell that you have a poor rune rating in, pop it in a matrix. Gets around the CHA limit on RP as well.

A bit of thread necromancy. While rereading the thread, I found this (perfectly valid) comment by Phil. You can go further, because if you put an attack condition (RQG p250), there is no roll. The Spell is just cast, but not by you. The no roll rule is not explicitly written, but as nobody is casting the spell, nobody can roll for it. And this is how it worked in RQ3 (iirc).

Another one: If you bind a spirit in a matrix or dominate it for a long duration and have him possess an animal, you can bring him to a cult ceremony and ask him to spend 1 MP. Given time, he will become a Lay member, and you can ask the priest to teach him spells. Then, having the spirit in a matrix, you are able to use those spells without having them count for your CHA allowance (and of course, you can use it's MP). Going further, you could even have him become initiated and having Rune spells (but you still have to use your own RP to cast them).

1 hour ago, OxygenO2 said:

"Learning" a rune spell is not so much learning any specific phrases or gestures, as it's about going through the rituals, prayers and sacrifices to set up a "contract" with your deity. "I give you a piece of my soul and you will grant me some of your power when I call for it, letting you act through me in the world of time". Casting a rune spell is then just calling out to your deity and hope for an answer.

This is exactly (in other words) what I explained to players in our RQ3 campaign. For Rune spells, you are not the one that is casting the spell, you are requesting your god to perform his magic, in exchange of a part of your self. This explained why the percentage was 95%, gods being gods. Even if the rules have changed (in a good way), the explanation is still what I gave to my players when we tested RQG.

38 minutes ago, soltakss said:

I am not sure if it is specifically stated, but is definitely implied. 

This of course valid for all the common spells, at the very least. So, yes, it is definitely implied.

47 minutes ago, Godlearner said:

Yeah, but then you have a situation of "please voluntary donate POW or we kill your wife". 

This is why I prefer 'POW not given fully voluntarily is corrupted'. This avoids much problems like this one.

31 minutes ago, Akhôrahil said:

I would personally say that it’s being very heavily (and heavy-handedly) retconned as a couple of decades’ worth of HW/HQ material is being excised.

In that case, your 'fork' word is correct. Better than my 'reboot'.

32 minutes ago, Akhôrahil said:

When would you argue Glorantha was rebooted? I don't see it. However, it has definitely been forked, which is kinda unusual. We now have parallel continuities.

The reboot I was thinking of is Herowars. You can call that a Fork, it is also fine for me: Both means it is not the same thing anymore, even if having the same origin.

19 minutes ago, Akhôrahil said:

And even if there are changes, later publications in the same system of canon can overwrite/retcon earlier stuff (I'm assuming there are actual contradictions between Thunder Rebels and S:KoH), while still being one maintained canon. For instance, mainstream (non-cinematic, non-Ultimate, and so on) Earth-616 in Marvel continuity has seen more retcons than Glorantha could ever dream of, but it's still one system of canon. While the DC Universe is not, as it has been fully rebooted any number of times by now.

Exactly. DC Universe has been rebooted (Remember 'Crisis on Infinite Earth'), Marvel Universe has been rebooted. And Glorantha has been rebooted. I don't know anything of the evolution during HW/HQ period, but RQ Glorantha and HW Glorantha are clearly (for me) not the same world. As it is the same name put on something quite similar that appear later, it can be called a reboot.

27 minutes ago, Godlearner said:

As pointed out, it is too open to abuse. All you need to do is Dominate/Command/Control spell and you are sitting on a POW mine.

And I am not even mention just plain old fashion coercion.

As I explained earlier (and was explained before by Jeff), this does not work. POW has to be given fully voluntarily. Iirc, the explanation war that otherwise, the POW is corrupted and can not be used. He explicitly ruled out POW given under Dominate/Command/Control spells.

16 minutes ago, PhilHibbs said:

Ok, fine, if you want to do that. But it really sounds like people are complaining about things that they are choosing to do.

I am not complaining. I am just explaining what I understand of the rules and of their consequences. But on that specific point, I never complained.

And in fact, it is fine for me.

2 minutes ago, Godlearner said:

Yeap, this piece I have inked out of my book as an editing mistake.

Why? (just curious)

21 minutes ago, Orlanthatemyhamster said:

What should the player who has Hate [Lunars] 100% do? The game gives/encourages people to have these strong passions, but then says, but you have to play 'nice' !

That is a big part of my problem with the passions.

2 hours ago, Joerg said:

Stickpickers don't usually get access to "Enchant" magics, that's restricted to runemasters who by definition are of a higher social standing or shamans who have a different, but also elevated standing. I don't see any stickpicker sorcerers happen.

They don't need to have access to said magic. They only need tohave somebody that has access to said magic has access to them (RAW).

2 hours ago, Joerg said:

One thing a GM might want to consider is letting people donate POW to pay off weregeld or ransom, but not at a rate of 200L per point of POW - those are for high ranking specialist magicians like rune masters whose time and POW regeneration is way more valuable than a mere troubleshooter PC's, and yet more than a stickpicker's.

I did point out that IMO low ranking clansfolk are likely to be magical folk to get a day or two in the course of the year, and that they are likely to spend a significant amount of POW for those moments of respect and glory. They might even be treated like adventurers or at least sidekicks of adventurers wrt POW gains etc., but that may at best lift them up from destitute to poor standard of living. And as soon as that happens, they are no longer stickpickers, so that silly situation doesn't crop up.

Holy folk usually create magic items tied to their cult, which makes them loanable to cult members, but not really sellable, or usable in a ransom or weregeld situation. Neither would their spending of rune points or casting of one-use rune magic be counted at adventurers' buying prices.

I bet it is possible to get clandestine castings of rune magics at prices wildly different from listed prices. The cost for an aldryami spell for plant growth from an Issaries merchant (via Spell Trading) may be a lot higher than trading for some directly with your own Issaries magic or that of your Issaries retainer.

 

Retainers' services are bound to cost less than hiring folk just for a single service. There are other costs, as having a retainer is a long term expense that goes into pension territory. On the other hand, a person who has retainers will in all likelihood also have retired retainers to take care of, or their dependents in case those retainers lost their lives during service. Maybe it's a zero sum difference in the end, but creating possible story elements for players and GMs to exploit. (And I love "building" style games, whether in role-playing or in computer games.)

I fully agree on this (no comments on 13G, about which I don't know anything).

7 minutes ago, Akhôrahil said:

Yes. There are at least four Gloranthas going by different canons.

1. Guide to Glorantha canon. This is the minimalistic (as much as anything that big can be minimalistic) canon. It’s probably the most official one. Much of the Stafford Library is almost-canon here.
2. RuneQuest canon. This makes some changes to Guide canon, perhaps most  noticeably with regards to the runes. It likes to completely ignore HeroQuest material. Rules effects on the world are significant.
3. HeroQuest canon. This differs a lot from RuneQuest canon, especially with regards to cults and magic, and its Orlanthi are more Celto-Germanic. The system, being free-form and narrative, pushes unusually few rules effects on the world.
4. 13th Age canon. This one is pretty bonkers, has a setting that does not easily map to any other known HeroWars future, and is unusually ”loose”.

You go further than I do (but as I don't have the guide, this is logical). Apart to this, I fully agree.

6 hours ago, Godlearner said:

There is no way to "donate" POW. The person would have to have skills and spells to do so. The closest thing to it would be Tapping someone, or performing a ritual sacrifice on someone. Both seem to be chaotic.

RAW, there are at least 3 ways I can think of:

- Giving POW to a wyter.

- Giving POW to a god (and taking RP in exchange).

- Giving POW to an enchant in progress.

6 hours ago, kirinyaga said:

consider POW cannot be given and stored, it has to be used for enchantement, during a ceremony. And the enchanter has to spend 1POW, s/he won't enchant a matrix every week.

So, episodically, peoples having both the know-how and a large amount of money may gather a few poors from a compatible culture/pantheon, happening to have a few POW to spare at that time, s/he trusts enough not to mess with the long and delicate ceremony. I think it's probably easy to find 1-3 POW to buy if you invest some time to do a bit of communication a couple seasons ahead. Probably easier in cities. Enchanters will also probably favor less peoples giving more POW than the opposite.

This is exactly what I described: Few donors and few buyers, but both exist.

4 hours ago, PhilHibbs said:

This is very much in the "extrapolating Glorantha from the RuneQuest rules" hole.

If you can extrapolate Glorantha from RuneQuest, then you can extrapolate Glorantha from HeroQuest, and you can extrapolate Glorantha from 13th Age in Glorantha.

Yes, and if you don't play HQ, nor 13G,it is the only one that matters for you.

4 hours ago, PhilHibbs said:

Are there therefore three very different Gloranthas?

Yes. I never bothered buying anything for HW, and I don't know anything about 13G but the Glorantha I felt from reading Herowars is completely different from the one I felt reading RQ (both 2 and 3).

4 hours ago, PhilHibbs said:

Well, there are as many different Gloranthas as there are GMs, possible more. So sure, if you WANT to extrapolate your Glorantha from RQG, there's nothing stopping you from doing so. But there's also nothing forcing you to do so either.

Agreed on both.

4 hours ago, PhilHibbs said:

Feel free to tell us hilarious stories about the crazy consequences of the extrapolations that you have chosen to make, but don't expect anyone to take any notice of them for their own games. And if your GM is making crazy extrapolations and hitting your characters over the head with them, then have a polite word about them maybe not being such a jerk.

I don't feel his extrapolations are crazy. This is how he understand the rules and how they describe the world functions. So they matters. My readings are not the same as his, but they also modify the way I perceive Glorantha and how it works.

3 hours ago, Brootse said:

No, RAW in the current edition state that anyone can donate POW for enchantments. I don't allow that in my campaign, since it leads to silly situations like stickpickers having sellable property worth of 2000L.

It is not worth 2000L because nobody would accept to sell more than 1 POW, especially if that amounts to 5 years of income.

36 minutes ago, Akhôrahil said:

Agree, you could just say "you can buy your freedom for X points of POW, and I will even set you up a starting fund".

Yes, it can occur.

30 minutes ago, Akhôrahil said:

One point of POW versus starvation isn't exactly a hard choice.

This is exactly the point I was speaking of: For 1 point, you get 5 to 10 years of cost of living for you and your family. This is why I can easily envision people doing it. I don't think many people would accept, and I am not sure there are many buyers (even for enchanters, 200L is also quite a high amount of cash) , but if we accept that the rule exists, the phenomenon also has to exist.

22 minutes ago, Brootse said:

Why is a male slave's price only 100L, if an average male slave has 2000L worth of POW?

Because he can not be forced to provide this POW. Only a voluntary person can. This is how I play it, after a thread where Jeff (iirc) explained that you can not force a spirit to contribute to an enchant, even with control / dominate spells. I will apply the same rule to humans / trolls / ducks and others. Let's say the non complete voluntary gift corrupts the POW, making it unusable.

2 minutes ago, Akhôrahil said:

Also, such empires might not make it entirely voluntary whether to provide your POW to the national coffers.

In that case, it would not be the PSE (POW stock Exchange), but the PRS (POW Recovery Service).

Just now, Akhôrahil said:

I could, in the Lunar Empire. Institutionalized POW selling seems like a natural outgrowth of the whole thing.

Not thought about that. In fact, Kralorela could also, after rethinking.

11 minutes ago, Akhôrahil said:

That’s one part of it, but another is that If we think that these rules actually describe how the world works, then it stands to reason that selling POW would be something that happens. The large supply (but unclear demand) makes me think you should be able to buy POW spends at well under 200 L per point.

I don't think the offer would be so high. Between the Rune Points, the gifts to Wyters and some diseases, not counting all the people that would not accept selling part of their POW (like I would not , if given choice, sell a part of my body), the enchanters will not have access to a so high number of sellers. And I can't envision (except for jokes) a POW Stock Exchange.

17 minutes ago, French Desperate WindChild said:

well the GM has a big job then to avoid munchkinnery

Easy: Don't provide too many sellers.

2 minutes ago, Akhôrahil said:

Anyone can contribute POW to an enchantment. This is by far the easiest way to spend your POW for someone else.

Yes. This point is very important: The enchanter has to provide at least 1 point of POW, but all others can be contributed by anybody. And, as some people are today selling a kidney, I perfectly envision someone requesting a payment in exchange of participating a bit of his self to an enchant, if this allows several years of income for him and his family. I don't think they would be numerous, but they would exist. On the other side, I also find normal for the enchanter to compensate for the help he is receiving in his work.

30 minutes ago, French Desperate WindChild said:

- that means more material, so more time for chaosium (stop adding work before god and goddess please !) and bigger prices for customers

- that means more complexity : darkness spell in sundome, easy, moon spell in lunar empire, easy what about darkness spell in sartar ? wait it depends on the tradition of this clan and this one. what about spirit tradition in the west ? for rokari, this salfester sect, not this one, the other behind, etc..

Agreed. We could still have broad strokes, like 'Tap technique is restricted to Borists and Brithinis'. Joerg copied us a warning that was in HQ, that would have been useful and sufficient in that case.

32 minutes ago, French Desperate WindChild said:

people (gloranthan people) who used to cast a spell (the cult spells more or less) accept this spell (and those doing about the same) as good spell (but that doesn't mean using this spell is always considered as a good spell)

people who fear / hate the people using this exotic spell consider this spell (and the "affiliate") as an evil spell

people who don't know the spell at all will react depending the situation:

• the caster is bad with them, this magic is evil.
• the caster is good with them, let's try this new magic. (but "them" is not all the country, maybe the local potentat will consider it as "bad for him" to see his farmers helped bu this strangers)
• the caster is neutral with them, well it depends the culture : lunar seems to be tolerant when sartartite (in %) will consider you as a bad sorcerer (what I don't know is of course bad things)

Good proposal.

34 minutes ago, French Desperate WindChild said:

the main issue here is I ( I,the gm) may be wrong to any interpretation.

Right. This is why at least basic info is needed. For the rest, Everybody's Glorantha Must Vary.

36 minutes ago, French Desperate WindChild said:

Not because they are not interesting places, but because that is a very large scope to cover with high level of quality and unfortunately, chaosium didn't prove me they are able to produce 50 000 pages per year (and they don't have to, they do their business, it is not a claim)

Completely agree here.

P.S. I didn't put a like to your post because I am out of stock, but: 'Like'

4 hours ago, Akhôrahil said:

The Emperor electrocuting you seems worse than either, yet no-one claims that frying an enemy with Lightning is particularly evil.

This is one of the point I was raising: Some spells have social stigmata, and some not. It should be written in the spell or technique description, as people, depending on their homeland or religion, or ..., will not all have the same restrictions. Without this information, all those spells have to be equally considered evil (by modern standard) or acceptable (by older time standards).