Kloster

I like number 1 and 2, much less the others, but this is a nice try.

Runequestement votre,

Kloster

My personal preference goest to 5-6 players.

Our current RQ3 campaign has currently 10 players, but most sessions have only around 6 players, as age and family considerations are taking their toll.

Runequestement votre,

Kloster

Just me being lazy and using Excel to quickly approximate the values. Sorry if it offends. (I used the “power” function to the power of .33 – obviously this is only a quick approximation of the true value – but it shows the trend). Since this problem only comes up in my games once every few years, and since I usually game with scientists (and corresponding graduate students), in the past we have just done “back of a napkin” calculations in game and gone with that.

Some players complain having to divide by 5 (for specials), others calculate cubic root on the fly!!!

That's life.

Apart to that, and not being a demolition expert, the rule I've learned in the army (were I was briefly exposed to explosives usage) was roughly doubling the damage for increasing the charge by a factor 8 to 10 (depending on the type of charge and what was to be blown). This is why it is more useful to use several small charges than 1 big.

Runequestement votre,

Kloster

This is the reason why for years I've used doubles as fumbles and crits. roll a double under your skill its a crit, roll a double over your skill its a fumble. Easy and quick, works like a charm.

If your score is below 100%, true.

If it is over 100%, it is not.

Runequestement votre,

Kloster

...

Neither of these can be counted on in the case of a RPG; in particular, expecting players not to use their character's abilities to the fullest is a very bad bet.

...

Complete agreement here.

...

I've also seen people either be seriously annoyed by Rifts for just that reason, or to simply avoid taking the weaker OCCs when the stronger were in play.

...

I think for most groups some semblance of it _is_ a requisite if you want to get a game that's actually fun for all involved. Like most things in gaming, there are always exceptions.

Ditto.

Runequestement votre,

Kloster

Whilst it makes some sense to mechanically make non-lethal the default condition for a supers game, if playing in a 'with great powers comes great responsibility' style, then arguably making the players think and make choices is very much in keeping with the silver age onwards.

This is an issue I have with the likes of Hero, M&M and MEGS - that since the default is pretty non-lethal to a greater or lesser extent in each case, then there is litlte impetus to recognise the need to act responsibly since the mechanics save the characters from serious repercussions, instead of the characters saving themselves by acting responsibly.

In essence the rules allow the players/PC's to abdicate any responsibility since there is no need to have any mechanically.

I would say not (completely) true for Champions/Hero, because characters (with their hit points and armor) can almost be killed only by killing attacks, but standard humans are killed in 1 shot by the average result of a beginning character standard attack.

Runequestement votre,

Kloster

MEGS was the game engine for DC Heroes then later Blood of Heroes, and in terms of point buy systems my favourite simply due to its mechanical elegance. Its weakness was similar to that of Hero: high end functionality was fine, but gradation at low levels was minimal.

I know there has been several DC games. The only one I have (and have played) is the one from Mayfair, with it's pure logarythmic system (+1 equals a doubling in efficiency).

Runequestement votre,

Kloster

...

Really? there are two or three spot rules that seem to handle this function already, at least as I see it.

...

Those spot rules can come close, but I see 2 problems:

- In All Golden and silver age, and most bronze age comics, the non lethal combat is the rule, not the exception, and if you want to model those genre, the rules should show this.

- As Nightshade explained, players tend to stay simple and will probably NOT use those spot rules.

...

Given the variable growth and mechanical functioning efficiency is a complicated issue - starting efficiency vs efficiency after considerable experience for example, so comapring starting characters would not be a fair comparison necessarily, and efficiciency could be balanced in the area of charcter growth rather than massive rule change to the power systems.

...

I am not asking for a massive rule change to the power systems. I'm 'only' saying the superpower section has to be extended to better cover the vast range of powers used by supers in the comics, and the ratio of efficiency between the different power systems has to be reconsidered. I should have added 'or the other (=non super powers) systems should be ignored as non genre'.

...

Are you not simply creating a GURPS/MEGS/Hero/M&M wannabe then?

...

No, I don't think so. BRP has a distinctive feeling and will (and should) not be a wannabe of anything. By the way, I don't know MEGS.

...

It is funny, but after 20 years of Champions, GURPS and MEGS, I feel I am stepping in the other direction - it really is different strokes for different folks.

...

True. Good luck and have a good time.

...

I have not yet used BRP as a supers game but I plan to, and my opinion may change after I have tried to do so. My view is that there is value in the BRP powers systems, and it is the skills systm that i want to emphasize as so many supers games are lacking in this area. I feel the powers systems simply need appropriate expansion, and that BRP can or should be utilised for its differences rather than similarities to the various point-buy games. The training rules seem an intriguing alternative to the flat experience point increase of point-buy. But that is just one view.

I have used it (in the days of WoW, then Superworld boxed set).

I agree there is value in the power system, and in addition to this, it works.

No comments about the skill system, because I think BRP has the best, bar none.

No comments on the rest. As already pointed, different people, different views (This one is not mine, but is valid), different choices.

Runequestement votre,

Kloster

Ironically, that's often the reason people use Hero for everything, too; it just tends to run into problems toward the other end of the spectrum, because on the whole its much easier to knock out than kill people with it, barring special rules (and this becomes extremely noticeable when any significant body armor is present).

...

True. With Hero, barring the most powerful standard attacks, only killing attacks have a chance to kill a character, and in super settings, those are quite rare.

...

Hero's skill system isn't particularly bad, when compared with RPGs as a whole, but it shows what it is--something that was added to the system somewhat as an afterthought.

...

Agreed.

...

That's the challenge for anyone trying to use BRP for a conventional supers game, even a low powered one. As I said, Superworld had its own solution; there was a fairly large gap between unconsciousness and dying (the character's Con score in fact, something most designs had at a relatively high level) and gave even those who went past that a Luck roll (with a 1% penalty for every point of damage past negative Con) to survive. Given the Extra Hit Points power was cheap and effective (it gave 2 hit points per power point spent), you were usually only in danger if you happened to get brought to a low level by one hit and then got hit very badly again (and this if you had no armor/protection, which wasn't a particularly common build, since even a modest amount would reduce the likelyhood of a really bad blowthrough here).

But most of these mechanisms aren't present in BRP as-is; as A says above, it shows the difference between a game crafted (at least to some degree) for the genre, and a general purpose system.

This isn't a problem unique to BRP; 3rd Edition GURPS Supers was somewhat notorious among Supers game fans for not being a good fit for most supers settings, partly because GURPS is also rather gritty by nature; on a different front, until M&M came along, D20 supers games had been, to say the least, underwhelming.

Same for me (except the comment about GURPS 3, because I've never played this one).

Runequestement votre,

Kloster

Page 124 says that if you lose your grimoire you can try once per day to remember spells not currently committed to memory. "Failure on this roll means that your character does not recall any useful information". I can read this two ways-- either that spell is lost for good, or you can try to remember the same spell again the next day.

What's the general consensus here?

My understanding is that you can try again the next day. But, as a GM, my ruling would be that it depends on the setting.

Runequestement votre,

Kloster

Well, there's a couple of reasons someone could want a BRP supers game:

1. They want to use, essentially, one basic system for everything. Lots of people don't like to have to use widely varied systems for different genres and settings.

...

Even if I am a big Champions fan, count me on this point.

...

2. They like aspects of the system that have nothing to do with the way damage and powers are handled, such as the skill system.

...

Count me also in this group. BRP has probably the best Role playing skill system I have ever used. Hero has definitely not.

...

And as a comment, it doesn't do much good to just have the PCs avoid being lethal if the NPCs aren't doing the same (and there's no in-setting reason for them to do so in many superhero stories; that's why its a convention that it just always works out that way).

...

This is purely a genre question. Spiderman is able too punch through a Safe door, and should thus be able to punch through the body of any goon he meets. I am not sure he has ever killed one. Same for Batman (or worse Superman).

...

This isn't a problem just limited to superheroes; its present in any genre/setting where low lethality is the order of the day without there being any in-world reason for it to be true. Its just particularly stark in the superhero setting because the power level compounds the problem.

Completely agree here (except that for me, non lethality is in-genre for most super hero settings. Punisher and Wolverine are exceptions, not the rule (and Wolverine is killing, but is still 4 colors).

Runequestement votre,

Kloster

Could I interest you in Fuzion? It's new-ish, it's from HERO and RTalsorian and ties in EASILY to a % system. Check out Champions:New Millenium

Fuzion - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

It's free!

TranzFuzion

This is/was my starting point...BRP + Fuzion = what I like...

...and I eagerly await the hate :thumb:

-STS

I've put my hand on Champions: New Millenium as soon as it has been available in France (about 1 year delay with US one), after a discussion with Mike Pondsmith when he came in Geneva for a Con we organized at that time.

The universe presented is nice. Less 4 collors than the standard Champions universe, but nice nonetheless.

I am much less impressed by the system, It is lacking the possibilities of the Hero system, but is bringing too much complexity to the Interlock system.

Those systems have been designed for modelling different kind of games and don't mix correctly.

Runequestement votre,

Kloster

Yeah, it is kind of ironic-- but 5th edition Hero came out in 2004 (I may be thinking of the revised edition). That's just it-- the system has been revised and refined, brought up to date. As long as subsequent editions of a game system truly improve upon itself (as opposed to say 4th edition D&D--sorry, my prejudice) I think they're a good thing. BRP is still kind of where it was in the late 70s. Don't get me wrong--it gets by on its own personality, and I'll take a unrefined BRP over a refined Hero System any day.

2004 is 5th revised, but the elements cited are already present in 1st ed Champions. I agree for the last comment, except for the Super genre (MY prejudice).

Runequestement votre,

Kloster

I've got my 5th Edition Hero System book out and ready for reference. I guess my biggest and first question is-- how much do I break BRP apart before I (try to) put it back together again?

Right now I'm just doing my best to achieve a firm understanding of BRP as it stands now, with all of its optional components. And understand how all of its facets work with each other.

It completely depends on your goal.

If you want a BRP Hero system able to reproduce all or almost all the aspects of the Super genre, you will have first to vastly expand the range of powers, add a complete non lethal combat system and reconsider the ratio of efficiency between the different power systems. Then, the creation system can (should) be modified to a point based one. This probably leads to a change in the experience system (to comply with the point system).

Those are some of the points (alongside with the availability of supplements) that made me shift from Superworld to Champions some 25 years ago.

Runequestement votre,

Kloster

That's just it, the style of play is everything. If you are looking to run a fairely realistic camapign with heroes who are only slightly more than human, BRP works grreat. Use one or more of the "hero point" and you can get a good system for running characters like Batman, Captain America, Daredevil, Iron Fist, THe Question, the Spirit, the Green Hornet, maybe even up to the level of Spider-Man.

But that is not the style used in a typical comic, especially for a group of heroes. Nor is it the style that the typical Super RPG gamer going to expect. To compete with games like M&M, BRP will need a the style of play/paradigm similar to that of Justice League or the Avengers.

Heroes Unlimited proved just how unfun, "gritty & realistic supers" can be, with the PCs wanted on manslaughter charges after each adventure.

But if the players are clued in, you can do some pretty cool stuff with BRP Superpowers. Just expect the occasional punch to crtical and cripple or possibly even kill somebody.

Totally agree.

Runequestement votre,

Kloster

Yeah, as much as I love realism I understand how other people can go for more cinematic games. With Hero System they accomplish that with basically two kinds of hit points Stun and Body. By default most attacks do stun and maybe a little Body at the same time, but you're far more likely to get knocked out before you get killed. Unless you encourage everyone to make characters with Killing Attacks, that do more Body damage, and subsequently live up to their name. I think a similar optional system could be created for BRP, maybe using fatigue. No doubt about it, it's a lot of work. In order to bring BRP 'up to date' with more modern 'generic' RPG systems, someone is going to have to break the bones of the entire system and reset them. It's not going to happen anytime soon, if it all, and probably would be met with some animosity. But I think it's totally possible--then I'm a hopeless romantic :happy:

As Champions/Hero has been published in 1981 (IIRC), I find amusing to see it listed in the 'modern generic systems'.

Apart to that, I fully agree with this analysis.

Runequestement votre,

Kloster

That was the main reason I stopped playing Hero! That and the template character was always a striker with a CAK and Full Life Support! Boring.

I am going for a Punisher/Watchmen type feel.

-STS

You've never read anything from the 'Dark Champions' line, don't you?

I am NOT using it especially because of this feel.

When I play a Super game, I do it for the Uebermensh feel, not to see almost ordinary men transformed in mindless killers by the access to a big armory.

But if you look on a Punisher style, this is your game.

Runequestement votre,

Kloster

I think that with work, BRP could equal M&M. I have a personal preference for 'point-buy' systems like M&M, GURPS, and HERO System, and suspect (probably based upon my prejudice) that an optional BRP point-based system would help. More importantly though, someone needs to come up with a more detailed selection of powers and power modifiers. Just my humble opinion.

I've begun work on a point-buy system modeled after GURPS and HERO System, though whether I ever finish it is another thing all together...

A good point based creation system to look upon is the one from James Bond 007 (Victory Games). But Champions, the father of all Super Hero and grand father of all point based systems is a good choice.

Runequestement votre,

Kloster

Nice. Too bad I can't play anymore both Interstates games.

You should play Car Wars. Your version of the universe (very Mad Maxian) is closed to the 'Chassis and Crossbow' model, originally described in the Dueltrack supplement.

Runequestement votre,

Kloster

Waouh!!!!

I've been since long a fan of the UFO game, but your text is simply brilliant.

I love it. Reading your post makes me wanting to reinstall it (once I will have finished my current run of Fallout 2).

Runequestement votre,

Kloster

Hi, thanks for the response. I've been looking at page 172, comparing damage vs. CON on the resistance table. Ah, I see now that the attack is nonlethal. Makes a big difference...

This comes from P51 of RQ III player book.

There is no real damage and the victim recovers from stun with a CON x 1 roll during the bookkeeping phase of any subsequent round.

Runequestement votre,

Kloster

Hi,

Don't underestimate the cost of learning a new system. Most players were basically butt-kicking or powergaming; D&D is good for that and there was nothing that was clearly better for that until World of Warcraft came along.

Also, it is harder to create a character for BRP {{any form} than for D&D. I know, I've done it a lot of times in both systems.

So you have to learn a new system, learn to GM a new system, etc. At the end of the process, you have a game that, if you are interested in butt kicking or powergaming, is not actually more fun than D&D. So BRP was pretty likely to end up taking over only those parts of the market that were interested in storytelling, wargaming, or method acting. This is a fairly small portion of the market, which BRP had to share with other competitors.

Oh, true. I originally believed tha this small portion will increase as the original players matured, but I now tend to think it is decreasing. We always see the same figures to the non-D&D tables, as D&D tables see a continuous flow of new players.

Runequestement votre,

Kloster

Both rules could actually pretty easily be combined:

"Any win on the POW vs. POW table, as the active or passive part, under stressed conditions, is awarded with a POW gain check, up until a character has reached its normal species maximum POW (18 for humans). After that a POW gain check is only awarded in situations similar to the one stipulated above, where a character has a success chance of 50% or less."

Actually I think I might start using this rule!

:beetle:

I like it and will propose it to my GM.

By the way, we currently allow POW checks for any win, wether active or passive.

Runequestement votre,

Kloster

Hello,

Once I can get a hand on it (that is once my flgs in Geneva gets it), we plan to:

- try to convert our current RQIII campaign to it.

- probably try to adapt the current CoC campaigns.

Super games will probably stick to Champions. For modern games, I don't know. I know we have a ringworld fan (both the books and the game), so we will perhaps see a resurgence.

Runequestement votre,

Kloster

Are halberds really that big? I always thought they were about 5-6 feet long. Kinda like a staff. (isn't a 10' pole standard dungeon delving equipment?) Also, are there rules for half-swording?

On dungeons, it always bothered me that they always had nice tall ceilings. Think how nasty goblins or kobolds would be if they're homes only had a 4 foot tall ceiling. Fighting while crawling ... ouch.

Aaron

The one I have seen have a 10 to 12 feet haft (3.0 to 3.5 meters for us non imperial).

Runequestement votre,

Kloster