Herbalism

[BrentS]

Hi all.

 

One of the players in my soon to commence RQG game will be playing a Chalanna Arroy initiate. I'd wanted to give more depth to the non-magical aspects of her craft.....we feel magic, particularly Rune magic, would be reserved for more serious presentations, just as we wouldn't treat every patient with surgery, and that much of the healer's art would be more holistic in terms of symptom control and management of minor ailments with natural remedies. On a search for references to Gloranthan herbs in these forums, I found that there's not a huge amount to go on. On a broader search I stumbled across an extensive real world and fantasy herbal guide here:

http://www.zioth.com/roleplay/equipment/herbs

It's tailored to D&D and some of the listed effects are too extreme (a herb that reduces damage from falling is a bit silly, unless you land on a huge mat of it 😀.....I'd translate that as a remedy to promote healing of bruising or fractures)......but it does give a fantastically broad array of real and plausible herbal remedies with suitably evocative names, the appearance of the plants and their seasons and zones of growth, which is very useful, rather than me having to invent a Gloranthan herbology from whole cloth. I've linked it here in case others might also find it of use.
 

Brent.

Edited June 30, 2020 by BrentS

[Squaredeal Sten]

There is at least a fragment of an answer in one of the sidebars in the RQ2 book Cults of Prax, page 66.  This indicates that Steve Perrin and Greg Stafford made up at least part of a list of medicinal herbs:

" We made for a campsite at Horngate. I had little left to
trade, and so Norayeep and I searched for healing plants
as we approached, hoping in that way to earn enough to
trade for food. The first day was poor, and all I found were
roots and seeds, out of season. Norayeep found some sticky
Liverleaves, useful in absorbing systemic poison from the
body. The next day, I found a Jang flower, and Norayeep
found some Fingersticks, both useful against wounds, and
she also found some Inipris leaves, which fight the Wasting
Disease. On the third day we gathered more Jang flowers,
some Hairflowers useful against the Shakes, and some rare
Silver Strands, which combat Soul Waste.
Then we turned and hurried north to the oasis hoping to
use these before the week was up.  "

 

Now it would be interesting to know whether there are any other documents using these, (a google search for "Jang, Fingerstick, Inipris"  turns up nothing but Cults of Prax, while searching for two terms brings up other uses of the phrase finger stick and a minor celebrity named Jang.)

It would  also be interesting to discuss what effect these or other herbs might have in game terms, and under what conditions.    Would you treat them as only effective when an adventurer has an appropriate healing skill, do they give a +% bonus to that skill, or how else would you apply them?

PP.68-29 of Cults of Prax, in the Chalana Arroy section,  has a procedure that depends on terrain for number of searches, then rolling for WHAT your find cures, then for "potency" by part of plant and season which also gives the % chance of success.  At a quick reading there seems no link to skills other than finding the herbs and magically refining them. 

It seems to me that if the "potency' of a plant cures that many points (from 1D4 to 1D12)  of damage then for wounds this stuff looks like it can be better than a rune spell, which seems to me to be over-powered for an herbal tea or a poultice.  So I am NOT sure that it will be treated that same way now, 30+ years later, in the much desired and much awaited RQG cults book.  Perhaps if you have a good suggestion now it may affect the content, who knows?  Or it may not be addressed at all in that book.

If I were making it up from scratch, I would use one of these:

•   Have an herb give a % bonus to Treat Wounds, treat disease, or treat poison skill.  
•   Or it might have a Potency against the Potency of a poison or a disease, leading to a roll on the resistance table against the poison's or disease's potency / POW of a disease spirit. 
•   Or perhaps these might be a bonus to the CON or POW, whatever characteristic is being attacked by a disease or a poison, when the victim does a resistance roll.  

But those  might only appeal to me.  What's your opinion?

 

Edited July 5, 2020 by Squaredeal Sten
went farther into the book

[BrentS]

3 hours ago, Squaredeal Sten said:

There is at least a fragment of an answer in one of the sidebars in the RQ2 book Cults of Prax, page 66.  This indicates that Steve Perrin and Greg Stafford made up at least part of a list of medicinal herbs:

" We made for a campsite at Horngate. I had little left to
trade, and so Norayeep and I searched for healing plants
as we approached, hoping in that way to earn enough to
trade for food. The first day was poor, and all I found were
roots and seeds, out of season. Norayeep found some sticky
Liverleaves, useful in absorbing systemic poison from the
body. The next day, I found a Jang flower, and Norayeep
found some Fingersticks, both useful against wounds, and
she also found some Inipris leaves, which fight the Wasting
Disease. On the third day we gathered more Jang flowers,
some Hairflowers useful against the Shakes, and some rare
Silver Strands, which combat Soul Waste.
Then we turned and hurried north to the oasis hoping to
use these before the week was up.  "

 

Now it would be interesting to know whether there are any other documents using these, (a google search for "Jang, Fingerstick, Inipris"  turns up nothing but Cults of Prax, while searching for two terms brings up other uses of the phrase finger stick and a minor celebrity named Jang.)

It would  also be interesting to discuss what effect these or other herbs might have in game terms, and under what conditions.    Would you treat them as only effective when an adventurer has an appropriate healing skill, do they give a +% bonus to that skill, or how else would you apply them?

PP.68-29 of Cults of Prax, in the Chalana Arroy section,  has a procedure that depends on terrain for number of searches, then rolling for WHAT your find cures, then for "potency" by part of plant and season which also gives the % chance of success.  At a quick reading there seems no link to skills other than finding the herbs and magically refining them. 

It seems to me that if the "potency' of a plant cures that many points (from 1D4 to 1D12)  of damage then for wounds this stuff looks like it can be better than a rune spell, which seems to me to be over-powered for an herbal tea or a poultice.  So I am NOT sure that it will be treated that same way now, 30+ years later, in the much desired and much awaited RQG cults book.  Perhaps if you have a good suggestion now it may affect the content, who knows?  Or it may not be addressed at all in that book.

If I were making it up from scratch, I would use one of these:

•   Have an herb give a % bonus to Treat Wounds, treat disease, or treat poison skill.  
•   Or it might have a Potency against the Potency of a poison or a disease, leading to a roll on the resistance table against the poison's or disease's potency / POW of a disease spirit. 
•   Or perhaps these might be a bonus to the CON or POW, whatever characteristic is being attacked by a disease or a poison, when the victim does a resistance roll.  

But those  might only appeal to me.  What's your opinion?

 

Yes, thanks, I knew about those excerpts from the journal of Biturian Varosh. 

I think herbal remedies should be less dramatic and less immediate than magic but still important and effective. A significant part of our modern western pharmacology is not directly curative, but supportive of patient host factors. e.g. most antibiotics we use are bacteriostatic rather than bacteriocidal.....they slow bacterial growth rather than directly kill, giving patient immune mediation a chance to do its job.

Given that, I really like your first and third suggestions.....successful herbal use adding to a healing skill like an augment, or bolstering the patient's POW or CON for purposes of disease resistance rolls.

Brent.

[Sir_Godspeed]

In the Witcher, you can only take a certain amount of potions before they become toxic. This is a game mechanic to avoid players binging potions before a battle to become stupidly overpowered. 

Not sure if a toxicity dosage thing could be worked into RQ. Something like your character being able to heal a bit, and get something that increases hearing, but taking more than that would be harmful for the body. 

Admittedly, this could perhaps also just be balanced by making stuff scarcer, which would be up to the GM.

[BrentS]

1 hour ago, Sir_Godspeed said:

In the Witcher, you can only take a certain amount of potions before they become toxic. This is a game mechanic to avoid players binging potions before a battle to become stupidly overpowered. 

Not sure if a toxicity dosage thing could be worked into RQ. Something like your character being able to heal a bit, and get something that increases hearing, but taking more than that would be harmful for the body. 

Admittedly, this could perhaps also just be balanced by making stuff scarcer, which would be up to the GM.

This is true of all pharmacology, with variable therapeutic ranges for each drug , and lack of efficacy or toxicity beyond each extreme of that range. The same would be true for herbal remedies, although in the real world that therapeutic range is much broader than it is for manufactured drugs. With a few exceptions, herbals have such low levels of active compound that you would have to suffocate the patient beneath a truckload of leaves before they would come to harm.

My preference in Glorantha would be to have real but low level therapeutic effects for herbal remedies, subtle augments of healer skills or host resistance or recovery rates, as suggested above. At toxic levels all pharmacologicals become poisons. Harm could come from abuse or accidental overdose (a fumble on the Treat Disease or Plant Lore roll?). Sedatives and stimulants, which I would consider to include sensory enhancers such as those increasing auditory acuity, would also be likely to be addictive. Glorantha already has hazia but there must be others. My Chalanna Arroy Initiate would understand this in principle. As her cult directive is to cause no harm to other living beings, she would get a warning if it looked like she were being treated as a meth cook. I will also limit the availability of those stronger herbals.

Brent.

[Squaredeal Sten]

A little thread necromancy here -

As of Dec, 2021 the reference situation has changed: There are two newly published Runequest books with sections on healing herbs - and other botanical finds:

Red Book of Magic p.72, Healing Plants

Weapons & Equipment pp. 30-32, Herbs and Plants - and the Jang flower is in it!

Now for some Real World healing herbs - actually fruit - fruits you didn't know about -  I just stumbled on this one: fig sap! 

" Figs have many uses for humans as well as for insects, birds, and animals. Their milky latex contains medicinal properties, and in the Amazon, villagers administer a teaspoon to cure stomach parasites in children. According to indigenous people in French Guiana, Colombia, and Brazil, the same sticky latex can cure cuts, fractures, and abscesses. In Nepal, Ficus benghalensis leaves, bark, and roots are used to treat more than 20 ailments; this useful banyan is also used in India to treat a wide variety of disorders ranging from tooth decay to hemorrhoids, diabetes, and constipation. At one time, figs were grown for rubber latex in India and parts of Africa. Probably the most famous fig is F. religiosa, or the Bo tree, native to India and Southeast Asia, thought to be the canopy under which Buddha received enlightenment. This is one of several species that in India and Asia dominates the center of many rural villages as an important spiritual gathering site.  "  https://nautil.us/issue/111/spotlight/the-incredible-fig?utm_source=pocket-newtab

so if we want to incorporate that into our campaigns....

Edited December 28, 2021 by Squaredeal Sten
Jang

[Darius West]

This is a great idea for a topic. Sorry for not contributing sooner BrentS.

Here are a few herbs I use in my Prax campaign, and elsewhere if appropriate...

Axolberries

Sour and strong tasting  berries that ripen in Earth Season, that serve a number of culinary and medicinal purposes in Prax.  Axolberries are used to deaden the taste of the drug stigummay and stop those who consume it from retching.  The berries are also used to add a tartness to dishes that require it.  Axolberries seem to be very good at fighting certain illnesses, in particular, the Blotches, and diseases of the teeth, offering +2 to the relevant characteristic for purposes of disease resistance rolls.  They have uses in medicines made by the Chalana Arroy Cult and are considered a Healing Herb.

Dust Grapes

This fruit of  ground creeper also known as “serpent noose” is often harvested for its fiber which is decent for rope making when boiled and stripped.  Its fruit when aged, dust grapes, can be mistaken for tight packed balls of animal dung pellets, yet have no aroma, and a flavor like cherries.  The roots of this plant produce a yellow dye, and the dust grapes produce a red dye.  It is possible to produce alcohol from dust grapes, but it stains your mouth purple and actually kills your ability to taste anything for hours and is mildly poisonous (POT 2 Poison).  It is very good for rubbing on bruises however, if you don’t mind them becoming strange lurid colors, and will add +1 to healing rate for wounds from crushing attacks.  hey have uses in medicines made by the Chalana Arroy Cult and are considered a Healing Herb.

Prax Onion

The Prax Onion is smaller than domestic onions grown elsewhere and is a very hardy and resilient bulb plant that grows in the Eiritha Hills, the Eastern foothills of the Stormwalks and in Shadows Dance.  It also grows in the Tunneled Hills of the Chaos Wastes.  The bulbs are small, normally the size of a man’s thumbnail, but they grow in clumps and are plentiful, and grow back quite swiftly.  The leaves are good animal fodder, and can be sliced up to add mild onion flavor to dishes.  Prax onion is used with a great many dishes, and they are often foraged in large numbers and pickled in brine, though they keep for about half a season before rotting (or drying out). Typically Prax onions are fried in oil to make them caramelize.  Prax onion has good antiseptic medicinal properties, and can be eaten raw in small quantities to treat the Shakes, Creeping Chills or Thunder Lung, to gain a +2 CON bonus, or as a soup to treat any illness with a +1 CON bonus.  Prax onions are associated with the goddess Nanya who is one of the Daughters of Genert.  They have uses in medicines made by the Chalana Arroy Cult and are considered a Healing Herb.

Sun Witch's Sleeve

This ragged looking herb grows in arid rocky places, and looks a little like the filthy and discarded lacework from a rich lady’s garment.  It is gray in color and has tiny yellow flowers.  If dried and crushed up it has an aromatic and complex smell and flavor reminiscent of oregano, and is good for driving away spirits, as the smoke offends and poisons spirits.  The smoke from this plant, when burned, pervades the nearby spirit plane in the vicinity, and spirits must resist a 12 point attack or lose 1d3 Magic Points.  They cannot fight the smoke, and the smell of it is offensive to them, encouraging them to depart the area.

Old Friend

This is a perennial and fast growing weed of Glorantha, having travelled the world, likely with the God Learners on their ships, if not traded far and wide by Issaries merchants in the First Age.  Old Friend has a soft, broad downy leaf that is fibrous and doesn’t tear easily. The down of the leaf is actually its seeds. Old Friend is used for wiping bottoms, and in the process of doing so, its seeds get the nutrients it needs to grow more Old Friend.  Old Friend does need more water than is commonly available in Prax, and hence it is mainly found growing at Oases, or the banks of rivers, and seasonal rivers.  As a water-rich plant, grazing animals like to eat Old Friend’s succulent leaves, and propagate it in their dung.  If picked and allowed to dry, Old Friend can be burned to produce a very smoky fire, which sometimes has signaling value.  The down of Old Friend can be scraped and collected in a laborious process that produces a pinch of material per leaf, and can be used to season with a mild taste which has a gentle nutty bittersweet flavor, with hints of pepper, citrus and anise.  The leaf itself is safe for humans to consume but has little to no taste, and has very little nutritional value, but has plenty of water content.  Praxians are not at all squeamish about eating a plant normally reserved for wiping bottoms, especially if they are thirsty.