Question about Opposing skills in CoC 7E

[shockvalue]

If I understand CoC 7e correctly, the difficulty of a skill is set by the skill of the person opposing the roll. If the opposing person's skill is <50, it's Standard difficulty; 50-90, Hard difficulty (1/2 chance); and if they're over 90%, it's Extreme difficulty (1/5 chance).

Further, it seems that the idea is to have the Investigators do the rolling. So, if an Investigator thief is trying a Stealth roll, a guard's Listen roll sets the difficulty. Conversely, if an NPC thief is sneaking past an Investigator, the Investigator makes a Listen roll with the difficulty set by the thief's Stealth skill.

Nice and elegant, for sure. But it creates some oddness, I think? If an Investigator thief with a Stealth of 60% is trying to sneak post a guard with a Listen of 60%, then the Investigator's chance of successfully sneaking is 30% (1/2 of 60).

But if the situation is reversed and the Investigator is the guard, then the Investigator rolls their Listen, with only a 30% chance of success, which means the NPC thief has a 70% of successfully sneaking.

Is that right? Or am I wrong about the player always being the one who rolls? (In which case, who rolls: Stealth with a difficulty set by the opposing Listen, or visa versa?)

[Psullie]

Remember that COC focuses on the Investigators point of view. In your example all that matters is 'does the investigator hear the guard', for simplicity the Keeper assumes a standard success and so only focuses on the Investigators. You could, for added drama, use an opposed roll where both roll and compare results. But this should only be used when it adds to the game.

[klecser]

See this thread: 

 

There are only certain conditions under which Opposed rolls occur. Stealth and Listen are examples of a skill that specifies how difficulty levels are set by an opponent's skill level. Note that for most skill checks, whether or not you feel that there is someone in counterbalance to the situation, you just set a difficulty level based upon the circumstances.  True "opposed rolls," where the difficulty becomes whatever level of success the NPC rolled, are things like combat or spell-generated opposed POW rolls. If a player wants to "do a thing" with a skill or characteristic, they are the only ones doing the rolling, unless the rules specify otherwise.

8 hours ago, shockvalue said:

So, if an Investigator thief is trying a Stealth roll, a guard's Listen roll sets the difficulty.

The guard's Listen skill level, not their roll, sets the difficulty.

From the rulebook:

"Regular difficulty: hearing something approaching
you (with a Stealth skill of below 50); eavesdropping
on a nearby conversation.

Hard difficulty: hearing something creep up on you
(with a Stealth skill of 50 to 89); eavesdropping on
whispered conversation."

The guard isn't even rolling. An "opposed roll" in the game happens when antagonists to each other both roll dice (combat, POW, STR). The Investigator is the only one making a roll in this case. If the guard is 50+ in Listen, and the investigator isn't, the Stealth roll difficulty is harder. 

8 hours ago, shockvalue said:

But if the situation is reversed and the Investigator is the guard, then the Investigator rolls their Listen, with only a 30% chance of success, which means the NPC thief has a 70% of successfully sneaking.

In this case, the Keeper just rolls for the investigator in secret. That makes sense. Would you tell an investigator "someone is trying to sneak past you, roll Listen." Nope. Under these circumstances, the Keeper asks for the investigator's Listen and Spot Hidden skills at the start of their "guard period." Ideally an investigator would never know whether a Keeper rolled or not. It is narratively appropriate to have "fog of war" over the actions of the NPC. I'd rule the difficulty in this particular case as being Regular because both the Investigator is good at Listening, and the NPC is good at Stealthing. Their skill levels balance each other. Jumping something to Hard difficulty happens when there is an imbalance of skill.

Call of Cthulhu encourages Keepers to adjudicate situations in the ways that make the most sense. Yes, you will encounter situations in which the rules do not give you a definitive way of calling something. But the key here is that all of the individual rule suggestions are all true simultaneously. Yes, the rules say that 50+ sets higher difficulties for some skills. Yes, the rules say that "investigators should be the ones doing the rolling." Yes, the rules specify certain circumstances in which "opposed rolls" happen. Your example isn't one of them. When you combine those together with a situation that has two 50+ skills that are interacting but the investigator is the one rolling, there is no "higher skill," so Regular is the difficulty, in my view.

Hopefully that helps!  

Edited January 26, 2021 by klecser

[Psullie]

1 hour ago, klecser said:

In this case, the Keeper just rolls for the investigator in secret.

I like to have the players to roll all the time, even when they don't ask and when it's not important - after a while they can't tell if they failed or if there actually was nothing - or even if I have them rolling for something coming up in the next scene - also nothing like the added dread when an Investigator knows they failed a Listen roll 😁

[klecser]

1 minute ago, Psullie said:

I like to have the players to roll all the time, even when they don't ask and when it's not important - after a while they can't tell if they failed or if there actually was nothing - or even if I have them rolling for something coming up in the next scene - also nothing like the added dread when an Investigator knows they failed a Listen roll 😁

Yep, this is another way to do it. Different groups react differently to "secret rolling" versus "spam rolling." Both are ways to manage fog-of-war!  

[Grimmshade]

I read that other discussion, and without bringing the heat again, I'd say it all balances out pretty well considering the rules are a toolkit and the options available. You can push a roll that's not specifically an opposed roll, so your chance of winning at Chess with 90% skill vs a 50% skill person increase a lot. Also, you only roll when it helps the drama. In a general non-dramatic situation, the 90% chess player should beat the 50% chess player because it doesn't matter. The rules also state to go ahead and use Opposed rolls for whatever you feel it makes sense for (once you're familiar with how they work.) 

Also, the interpretation of a failed roll is a bit up to the GM/players. Maybe the 90% vs 50% is a tie on a regular failed roll. Maybe the chess game just goes longer, or gets interrupted with no clear winner. Depends on the situation and what the player is trying to get out of it.

Just my take on it. I like having options, with the basic option being very quick at the table.

Edited January 26, 2021 by Grimmshade

[klecser]

31 minutes ago, Grimmshade said:

Also, the interpretation of a failed roll is a bit up to the GM/players. Maybe the 90% vs 50% is a tie on a regular failed roll. Maybe the chess game just goes longer, or gets interrupted with no clear winner. Depends on the situation and what the player is trying to get out of it.

Well said. This is also the reason why many of us disagree with the assertion made by Trail that Gumshoe "solves" the "problem" of failed skill checks grinding an investigation to a halt and making it not continuable. It was never a problem that needed solving. Interpreting critical check outcomes can determine the time it takes to find a clue, or simply indicate that it isn't found at that location. A Keeper interpreting a check result as straight success or failure is a Keeper adaptation problem, not a systemic mechanics problem. And that is the key for this thread: All Keepers can improve at the speed and decision-making they use to interpret rolls in the moment. 

[Grimmshade]

I like the simplicity of the RAW. By that I don't mean the opposed difficulty system (which seems to be the "problem" here), because reading the section on game rules, that's not the entirety RAW. I mean the dice options given in the Keeper's rulebook of choosing to use the opposed difficulties (with push options), or an opposed roll (with bonus/penalty options), or simply not rolling because its not really dramatic. 

For an unimportant chess game, I'll just say the higher skill wins. For an important chess game I'll go with opposed rolls (especially since chess can stalemate). For seeing if you can end a chess game fast enough to get to your meeting with Ernst Stavro Blofeld, I might go with the opposed difficulty roll, because pushing in that situation would be really fun.

Maybe a good general rule would be: If the opponents skill is less than 50, then just make a standard roll. If the opponents skill is 50 or higher, use opposed rolls.

[shockvalue]

On 1/26/2021 at 6:52 AM, klecser said:

 

The guard's Listen skill level, not their roll, sets the difficulty.

From the rulebook:

"Regular difficulty: hearing something approaching
you (with a Stealth skill of below 50); eavesdropping
on a nearby conversation.

Hard difficulty: hearing something creep up on you
(with a Stealth skill of 50 to 89); eavesdropping on
whispered conversation."

The guard isn't even rolling. An "opposed roll" in the game happens when antagonists to each other both roll dice (combat, POW, STR). The Investigator is the only one making a roll in this case. If the guard is 50+ in Listen, and the investigator isn't, the Stealth roll difficulty is harder. 

Yes, thank you.  That was a clumsy choice of words on my part, but I did understand that's how the rules work.

[Grimmshade]

1 hour ago, Tranquillitas Ordinis said:

but compared to the "opposed rolls" mechanics they loose (I think important) certainty of winning against weak NPCs with skill below 10.

I thank you for immortalizing me in a math problem.

The main reason I may go with The Combined System D of Honorable Grimmshade is due to simplicity against weak opponents. (just roll and be done.)

I am curious what you mean in the above quote about skills below 10. I'm just wondering if you are referencing a rule I'm forgetting.

[shockvalue]

I *may* have found an alternative that I can live with:

* The PC rolls skill.  If they roll over their base skill value, they fail (regardless of the opponent's skill)

* If the PC's roll succeed, the NPC opponent rolls.  If the NPC rolls over their base skill value, the PC wins.

* If both succeed, compare the actual values rolled by the PC and the NPC - the highest roll wins 

(i.e. the blackjack method - highest roll without going over wins)

So, if an Investigator has a Stealth of 60 and a guard has a Listen of 50, and the Investigator rolls a 25 and the guard rolls a 10, the Investigator succeeded in their Stealth attempt.

I don't know how to build a graph like Tranquilitis Ordinis, but I wrote an anydice script that can calculate this for whatever values you want to put it.  (It's a little clunky - it kept breaking unless I explicitly included "d100" as a variable in the script.)

https://anydice.com/program/20267

 

In general, this definitely advantages high skill PCs when they're up against high skill NPCs.  It slightly disadvantages PCs vs low-skill NPCs (but see below as an option for NPCs below 50% skill).

Example:  A PC at 90% vs an opponent with a 40% skill.  In RAW, the PC would have a 90% chance of success.  Under this system, it would be 82%.
However, that same 90% PC vs an opponent with a 50% would only have a 45% chance of success under RAW.  Under this system, it would be 77%.
And vs an opponent with a 90% opposing skill, the PC would have a 50% chance of success (rather than the 18% by RAW).

 

Potential add-ons and considerations that I haven't explored fully:

* If you need the PC's success level, you can still just look at if the PC rolled under their Hard or Extreme skill values.  In the example above, the Investigator would have rolled a Hard Success with their roll of 25 vs their skill of 60.

* For simplicity in the game, if the opponent's skill is less than 50, just simply have the PC roll (only) as per normal.  The percentage chances don't change much at those levels.  Given that most NPCs seem to have lower levels of skill, this means that play proceeds as quickly as in RAW.  It's only when an NPC has a notable level of skill that you'd take the time for the extra roll.

* I don't know how this balances out with Push rolls and Luck.  It may be that it advantages PC too much, reducing the need for Push and Luck as balancing mechanisms.

Edited January 27, 2021 by shockvalue

[Grimmshade]

That's basically the system Delta Green uses, iirc, for opposed rolls. (Highest roll that still succeeds wins)

[Aethel]

I think this is a bit of a storm in a teacup, from the 7th ed. rules:

Quote

Outside of Combat, the Keeper should avoid using Opposed Rolls between non-player characters and investigators. However once a Keeper is accustomed to these rules, he or she may wish to use an opposed roll where they feel it will enhance the drama.

So opposed rolls are quite voluntary and if not liked ignore on the whole?

How I run the "sneaking" past a guard scenario. 

• Is the guard a "mook" then a successful investigator roll always succeeds, but this may be very hard due to lighting, skill or position.
• Is the guard a "named character" then I roll for the NPC and look for the level of success. Each level of success will be a penalty dice for the investigator.

Good roleplaying will always trump mechanics in my opinion, and even in combat this applies.

[Grimmshade]

39 minutes ago, Aethel said:

I think this is a bit of a storm in a teacup, from the 7th ed. rules:

So opposed rolls are quite voluntary and if not liked ignore on the whole?

How I run the "sneaking" past a guard scenario. 

• Is the guard a "mook" then a successful investigator roll always succeeds, but this may be very hard due to lighting, skill or position.
• Is the guard a "named character" then I roll for the NPC and look for the level of success. Each level of success will be a penalty dice for the investigator.

Good roleplaying will always trump mechanics in my opinion, and even in combat this applies.

Yeah, this is basically what I've been saying. The book gives you the option as part of the RAW to just use opposed rolls for everything. It's not like the Opposed Difficulty option is the only way the rules work. Don't like it, always use opposed rolls... just like the rules say.

[Aethel]

Another thought - I quite like the roleplaying consequences of both sides failing - thinking of IRL this is not unknown and would make for memorable moments. 

"one day we'll look back on this, cough nervously and change the subject"

The roleplaying is the heart the dice art structure, as others have said good roleplaying and planning should reduce or remove dice.