Ywain As a PC (GPC Spoilers)

[SaxBasilisk]

My group ran through the events of 501. One long trip north, a character with Lustful of 18, Morgan, a childbirth roll... and Morgan le Fay is having twins!

As I like to tell my players, "Nothing could go wrong with this decision."

The second child will be a girl and a potential sorcerer... so that makes Ywain a potential PK.

1) Would you let the player play Ywain? (I'm inclined to say yes.)

2) From a character creation perspective, it's unlikely that the biological father will have much of a chance to instill the child with traits and passions. Is that how you'd create him as well?

3) Are there particular events you think are inevitable or desirable to happen to Ywain? I'm definitely getting him involved in his mother's attempt to kill his stepfather, and being evicted from court later. Part of the difficulty here is that I'm not as well read on the various depictions of Ywain in various sources, so reading suggestions are welcome.

[Voord 99]

Yvain/Ywain/Uwaine is really important in earlier versions, but tends to fade in stature in Malory, some of which is probably because he’s closely attached to Gawain.  Most importantly, Yvain is the main character of one of Chrétien’s most famous and most admired poems (and my personal favorite, in fact).   That’s definitely where I’d start reading.  There’s an important variant of the same story (Owain or The Lady of the Fountain) in the Mabinogion, also well worth reading.

That Yvain is probably not so suitable for being a PK — he has a very specific trajectory that explores the tension between the demands of married love on the one hand and the pull of chivalrous society on the other that, while it’s thematically inspiring for Pendragon (at least for me), couldn’t be imposed point-for-point on a player without colossal railroading.  Also, that Yvain is liable to seem overpowered compared to other PKs, both in the sense of being an amazing fighter (with his own lion), and, socially, in that he’s one of the most central and important members of Arthur’s court and has a superclose personal relationship with Gawain.

One interesting detail, though, is that in the Vulgate there are two Yvains, the main one and  his half-brother, Yvain the Bastard (who has a rather different origin story than your PK — he has the same father, but different mother).  (All IIRC!  My copy is on the other side of the Atlantic.)  So what the hell, why not three Yvains? 🙂

Edited July 13, 2021 by Voord 99

[Leingod]

3 hours ago, Voord 99 said:

ne interesting detail, though, is that in the Vulgate there are two Yvains, the main one and  his half-brother, Yvain the Bastard (who has a rather different origin story than your PK — he has the same father, but different mother).  (All IIRC!  My copy is on the other side of the Atlantic.)

You do indeed recall correctly, "Yvain the Bastard" is the son of Urien by his seneschal's wife.

Meanwhile, the original Owain is also attributed a twin sister named Morfydd (or Morvydd), who is mentioned in several Welsh Triads as the lover of Cynon son of Clydno, later made into a different character called Colgrevance or Calogrenant and turned into Yvain's cousin.

[Morien]

14 hours ago, Voord 99 said:

Also, that Yvain is liable to seem overpowered compared to other PKs, both in the sense of being an amazing fighter (with his own lion), and, socially, in that he’s one of the most central and important members of Arthur’s court and has a superclose personal relationship with Gawain.

Not to mention the de jure king of Gorre, once Uriens dies.

17 hours ago, SaxBasilisk said:

1) Would you let the player play Ywain? (I'm inclined to say yes.)

No.

We actually had a similar thing in our campaign in 511, with Margawse... There was quite heavy speculation that one of the PKs was actually the father of Mordred, and the campaign left that ambiguous, as in no point was Mordred's descent from Arthur mentioned (a departure from GPC); instead, Mordred claimed the throne via his status as Arthur's nephew and the Regent of Britain, thinking both Arthur and Gawaine had died in a battle against Lancelot.

There was never any push for Mordred to be a PK, nor was I offering it as an option.

17 hours ago, SaxBasilisk said:

2) From a character creation perspective, it's unlikely that the biological father will have much of a chance to instill the child with traits and passions. Is that how you'd create him as well?

As said, I would not allow him to be a PK, so this question would not come up. There is also the point that no doubt Morgan had a wedding night with Uriens soon afterwards, so who is to say who is the actual biological father?

But speaking of this more generally, you can go either the nature or the nurture method. Tor obviously is more the 'nature' example: he is Pellinore's bastard, and clearly favors his biological father not only in stature but also in personality as well; 'blood will tell'. Whereas his legal father, the shepherd, is a much more timid soul. Since I don't want to get bogged down with such details as a GM, especially as the PKs have a tendency to die before their children are all grown up (with some exceptions), I just use whichever parent was the PK and give them a break on the Famous Traits and Passions, and that is it. Keeps it simple for me.

Edited July 14, 2021 by Morien

[Voord 99]

5 hours ago, Morien said:

 Tor obviously is more the 'nature' example: he is Pellinore's bastard, and clearly favors his biological father not only in stature but also in personality as well; 'blood will tell'. Whereas his legal father, the shepherd, is a much more timid soul. 

Which is the point of those sorts of Fair Unknown and adjacent stories — they were about cementing the idea that people with noble blood were inherently morally better than other people and that was why they deserved to be who they were, socially, as a matter of birth.  Sir Tor is one of my favorite examples for how different the mentality is: the fact that he’s sired when Pellinore commits a horrific sexual assault (from a modern perspective) on a commoner means nothing, and the focus is on how, thanks to his real father having been a great knight and a king, Tor is innately knightly in character.  

One of the things that interests me about Pendragon is what it keeps and doesn’t keep from medieval thinking.   (This is not a criticism, just an observation.)  There’s a lot of attention to taking a more modern perspective on gender; on the other hand, one is expected to keep strictly to the sources’ perspective on class for the most part, minus the more obviously offensive things like Pellinore’s sexual assault.

Modern schlocky and not very good — but culturally interesting — televisual Arthuriana often goes out of its way not to take the same line on class as the sources.  Both First Knight and the BBC’s Merlin chose to make Lancelot more relatable to modern audiences by making him not aristocratic and someone who achieves equal stature with nobles by means of talent and hard work.  Which speaks to our modern myths of meritocracy as justifying the way things are.  

Wouldn’t be appropriate for my current game, but it’d be an interesting Pendragon variant that relaxed medieval reality in that direction and had Arthur’s reign be “unhistorically” egalitarian, and had Mordred be the leader of an aristocratic backlash against Arthur’s promotion of talented commoners.

 

Edited July 14, 2021 by Voord 99