WOW Style Vehicles

[Atgxtg]

Sorry this is a response to an older post. I'm just getting caught up. You dont

do impales against undead either. This would tell me it is only against living targets.

Rod

:thumb:

Man you made my life easier.

[Atgxtg]

Ah. I see your point - that is annoying.

Clearly as you say some sort of penetration rule is in order, not directly linked to damage done. Do you know what the new rules say, out of interest? Anything?

As far as I know, nothing yet. BRP was orginal designed for handling man to man (or man to troll, elf to duck) battles and the rules make sense in that light. For instnace if a spear point or bullet finds a chink in the armor it strike a soft body underneth. On the other hand if the same bullet that finds a chink would come up against a not soft soft chassis and proably more armor.

But getting rid of the impales vs. helps. I think I'll come up with a special cuess chart through. That way character could shoot out the lights, tires and other surface features.

Probably do something similar for critical. Maybe leave a slight chance of a "magic bullet" getting in through a eye slit or some such and doing to damage inside, but for the most part the probabilities are just to low to work.

And I guess that's the issue: how close to real-world modelling do you want to get? If you want something that's extremely accurate, I think you may have to go down the "penetration rating" route - I very much doubt there's any close analogue between the BRP rules and real-world penetration and armour resistances. Things can get pretty complicated very quickly doing that of course, which may dampen some of BRP's innate elegance. I guess it's the old playability vs realism conflict.

Perhaps you could achieve a quick and dirty win by simply saying that "personal weapons" do not ignore "vehicular armour" on a critical? You could even define "personal weapons" as "melee weapons and firearms with less than .50 caliber, or some such. It gets ugly quick, though... I think I'd personally go for playability over realism, and chuck in some GM fiat at moments of creaky "unrealistic" moments.

It doesn't have to be perfectly real. But I don't want to see APC crews gunned down by guys toting Uzis. At least not unless they are on top of the APC firing through a hatch.

Yeah, it CAN get very complicated. Especially since Penetration drops over range., something that BRP ignores, not to mention the effects of impales and what not. Part of the problem is the overall scale. With a Sword or pistol in BRP is you barely manage to penetrate the foes AP you do a point or two. With tank guns, the energy is so great that if you "just barely" penetrate the tank's AP there is probably enough energy left over to wipe out the crew, with superheated plasma or radioactive metal flying around.

But I think I can get something that is playable without getting to complicated.

Here is what I thinking of doing:

1)No Impales: If weapons can't impale vehicles that would be a big plus. (Thanks 3D6. BTW, I've got to use that name for a droid the next time I run Star Wars!).

1B)- Ony allow an impale if the initial damage penetrates the armor?

2) No crirticals. Same reason as #1.

3) AP rounds will get increased damage for Penetration purposes but reduced damage afterwards. For instance an Armor Piercing 9mm bullet might go from 1D10 to 2D8, but any damage that gets through is cut in half. A 50 caliber AP round might do 4D8+6, but also half actual damage through armor.

4) A Hit Location Chart. That way damage could be assigned to things like Handling, passengers, fuel tanks and such. Non penetrating surface hits could shoot out tires, lights, mess up a track, etc.

5) Big damage doers, like tank guns could use a mutiplier for damage. For instance a Tank GUn that would do 20D6 damage could roll 2D6x10 or 4D6x5. It is easier to roll and add up, plus better matched up with how hits against vehicles work. A hit that gets atwo points through the AP is getting 10 points through!

6) Maybe no vehicle Hit Points! Rather the damage gives penalties depending on what is hit. SIZ will factor in as to how much damage is needed to get the penalty. For instance every 5 points of damage through a car might mean a 10%penalty, while a tank might need 10 points for the same penalty.

[Shaira]

But getting rid of the impales vs. helps. I think I'll come up with a special cuess chart through. That way character could shoot out the lights, tires and other surface features.

Probably do something similar for critical. Maybe leave a slight chance of a "magic bullet" getting in through a eye slit or some such and doing to damage inside, but for the most part the probabilities are just to low to work.

I think this sounds cool. BTW - I'm getting a bit confused with the use of "Impale" and "Critical", probably because Stormbringer uses them one way round and RQ3 does them the other - lord knows what BRP will do! I'll refer to the 20% of skill score or under as "Special Success" and 5% of skill score or under as "Critical Success" - the old RQ3 jargon, I think. At least then I know what I'm talking about ;-)

I was looking at Ringworld again. They don't have Criticals, just Specials, and no Special Attack automatically penetrates armour. However, the following Special Attacks exist:

- Unarmed Special: Either choose Hit Location, or do Double Damage

- Archaic Melee Weapon Special: Does double damage

- Archaic Ranged Weapon Special: Either choose Hit Location, or do Double Damage

- Handgun, Projectile Special: Choose Hit Location

- Handgun, Energy Special: Do Maximum Damage, or choose Hit Location

- Heavy Weapon, Projectile Special: Choose Hit Location

- Heavy Weapon, Energy Special: Do Maximum Damage, or choose Hit Location

- Ship-mounted Weapons System Special: Choose Hit Location

So, a bit clunky, but essentially working to even out some anomalies (ie in Ringworld it's impossible for a pistol to shoot through a tank).

Yeah, it CAN get very complicated. Especially since Penetration drops over range., something that BRP ignores, not to mention the effects of impales and what not. Part of the problem is the overall scale. With a Sword or pistol in BRP is you barely manage to penetrate the foes AP you do a point or two. With tank guns, the energy is so great that if you "just barely" penetrate the tank's AP there is probably enough energy left over to wipe out the crew, with superheated plasma or radioactive metal flying around.

Ringworld did a certain amount of damage reduction with range, depending on weapon, which effectively results in reduced penetration. For example, the "Pneumorifle", effectively a high-powered airgun which does 2D6 damage per bullet, suffers a -3 to rolled damage for each 100m after the first 300m. Again, it's a bit clunky, but does allow you to manage penetration drop-off on a per weapon basis, which is useful.

But I think I can get something that is playable without getting to complicated.

Absolutely! Definitely looking forwards to seeing these rules - especially if you can scale up to Starships too >:->

Here is what I thinking of doing:

1)No Impales: If weapons can't impale vehicles that would be a big plus. (Thanks 3D6. BTW, I've got to use that name for a droid the next time I run Star Wars!).

1B)- Ony allow an impale if the initial damage penetrates the armor?

2) No crirticals. Same reason as #1.

As per the Ringworld stuff above, it's nice to have the fine-tuning of a "Special Success" without the unreality of armour-avoidance. Just up the AP of a vehicle so you can't saw it in half with a pocket knife

3) AP rounds will get increased damage for Penetration purposes but reduced damage afterwards. For instance an Armor Piercing 9mm bullet might go from 1D10 to 2D8, but any damage that gets through is cut in half. A 50 caliber AP round might do 4D8+6, but also half actual damage through armor.

This is good. You could also reduce the effective armour for an AP round for a similar effect.

4) A Hit Location Chart. That way damage could be assigned to things like Handling, passengers, fuel tanks and such. Non penetrating surface hits could shoot out tires, lights, mess up a track, etc.

I think this is crucial. Cribbing shamelessly from Ringworld again, they had a Hit Location chart for each vehicle in the same way they had for creatures, exact same format with D20 roll, AP/HP. Also, some of the locations get an asterisk: this means if you hit them, "make luck rolls to see if the crew is hit" - if you're hit, you take the available damage to on of your hit locations. Needless to say, this could wipe out a party very neatly in some cases...

5) Big damage doers, like tank guns could use a mutiplier for damage. For instance a Tank GUn that would do 20D6 damage could roll 2D6x10 or 4D6x5. It is easier to roll and add up, plus better matched up with how hits against vehicles work. A hit that gets atwo points through the AP is getting 10 points through!

Yowza! That's gonna hurt... I think you'd have to define this as a "High Explosive" type ammo, that sort of thing, though - it does sound very lethal!

6) Maybe no vehicle Hit Points! Rather the damage gives penalties depending on what is hit. SIZ will factor in as to how much damage is needed to get the penalty. For instance every 5 points of damage through a car might mean a 10%penalty, while a tank might need 10 points for the same penalty.

I'm a bit less enthusiastic about this, to be honest. I think you need to keep the Hit Points so you maintain the overall BRP paradigm and modularity - and minimise any learning curve. Regarding the penalties you mention, perhaps you could tie those into how many HP are lost in a given Hit Location - sort of equivalent to the old "Functionally Incapacitated" rules for going to negative HP in a leg, etc.

Just my two-penn'orth!

[Atgxtg]

I would love to handle damage reduction over range, but either than a 1/2, 1/4 approach it gets clunky. Still double damage for most anti-tank gunt at close range is quite realistic. The penetration values give are not at the muzzle but 2000km down range (or more for ship weapons, and yeah I have started work on the Iowa-class Battleship).

As for the 20D6 or 2D6x10 damage for an Tank round. That is actually based on an 120mm AP round used in the M1A2, than can penetrate 700mm+ of armor. Of course that sort of damage would penetrate Dragons pretty effectively too. I needed that sort of damage to get it to work with the 70 point armor of the M1A2. (The good news is that it is designed to fire at tanks, so anything smaller that SIZ 90 or so would be tougher to hit).

I supposed I could half AP values for AP weapons. I know BRP is going to separate different Armor types too. I might be able to do that without crits & specials, but need to check the weapon damages closely. Basically since a 120mm explosive tank round is doing 15D6 I need to rate the other stuff accordingly. Plus, I really think the 120mm round should be a "Dragon Slayer" in RQ terms so I need to give it at least 40-50 damage to do the job, even if I half the dragon's AP.

Hit Locations: It was an Idea. I'll probably stick with the normal hit locations, although I think I'm going with a different approach for armor. I think I want to do AP by facing, rather than by hit location. So if you are shooting at the side of an APC you need to get through the side armor, and so on.

Basically I need to separate between internal and external hits. Stuff inside get the vehicle APs, stuff outside get it own.

[Nightshade]

:thumb:

Man you made my life easier.

I should note undead are also generally assumed to have no critical locations, so deep penetration doesn't matter. Not sure that's equally accurate with a vehicle.

Its certainly incredibly wierd that undead do that directly given the way impales interact with armor, though. But then, maybe impales should have only done extra damage after armor from day one. But that creates its own complexities.

[Atgxtg]

I should note undead are also generally assumed to have no critical locations, so deep penetration doesn't matter. Not sure that's equally accurate with a vehicle.

Its certainly incredibly wierd that undead do that directly given the way impales interact with armor, though. But then, maybe impales should have only done extra damage after armor from day one. But that creates its own complexities.

True. I'm serious considering revamping impales to getting the extra damage IF it gets through armor. Maybe even tweaking criticals to 3 or 4 times damage with APs.

[Triff]

CR have some ammo with an armor penetrating value. Certain ammo might f.ex. have +4 AP penetration (ignoring 4 AP), and would then "ignore" 4 points. This could at least be partially applied to caliber meant for armor penetration.

SGL.

[Atgxtg]

CR have some ammo with an armor penetrating value. Certain ammo might f.ex. have +4 AP penetration (ignoring 4 AP), and would then "ignore" 4 points. This could at least be partially applied to caliber meant for armor penetration.

SGL.

CR? What is CR?

BTW, that is just the approach I swiped/used. Give weapons a + to PEN. About 4 AP seems to match up right with the performance of most AP rounds, too. Usually combined with a drop in the damage die (AP rounds tend to do less damage, since they will usually leave small holes and even over penetrate, only dumping some of their energy into the target).

Once I figure out what AP/weapon damage scale to use (I've got three that fit the data points given,so far), I should be able to get the quick conversion rules polished off enough for a first draft/test.

The plan is to get the quick write up/conversion for real vehicles, then the vehicle modification rules (so you can turn a car into a super vehicle), and finally newer, better vehicle desgin system that is "reverse" engineered from the previous two texts.

Oh, and someone along the line put up some starship design rules. I managed to get the scaling worked out between character SIZ and starship SIZ. (I had to refresh my memory on natural logs (ln) to do it, but I did it. And all the crunchy math is hidden behind the scenes. +1 one hull = +8 Size= x2 mass. It will make working out movement simple.).

The spaceship stuff should work as follows:

Pick a Hull rating;

Find out how many spaces said hull rating gives you;

Then fill up the spaces with components.

[Enpeze]

CR? What is CR?

Cthulhu Rising I guess.

[Atgxtg]

Cthulhu Rising I guess.

Ahh. Yes, that sounds right. Thanks.

[Triff]

CR? What is CR?

Cthulhu Rising yes. Gamed my first CR scenario yesterday.

SGL.

[Jarulf]

Hey, mr Triff! Will we get a report?

[Enpeze]

Cthulhu Rising yes. Gamed my first CR scenario yesterday.

SGL.

and? How was it?

[Triff]

Okay-okay! Coming soon in the Gamer's Cavern!

SGL.