Size stat

[werecorpse]

So in the same way that App can be a dump stat Siz can be a god stat. I propose getting rid of it and making 

HP con + Str 

damage Str + Dex /6

knockdown maybe con?

I think it improves the value of Dex which is a semi dump stat but doesn’t make any stat op?

thoughts?

[Ringan]

You might find this thread from the old boards interesting: Nerfing SIZ

[Morien]

48 minutes ago, werecorpse said:

I think it improves the value of Dex which is a semi dump stat but doesn’t make any stat op?

So STR now would give you HP, Healing Rate, Movement and Damage? 🙂 STR was already at least the second most useful stat, after SIZ, and this would enhance STR more and do nothing for APP. At the same time, this would nerf SIZ too much, IMHO. I agree that DEX would definitely benefit from this change, though, even though I don't quite agree with it, either.

I forget if these are already mentioned in the old thread Ringan linked (I would not be surprised), but some suggestions:

Knockdown score = (SIZ+DEX)/2 [boosts DEX, weakens SIZ]
Healing Rate = CON/5 [boosts CON, weakens STR]

Both are rather easy changes, and you can justify them easily enough.
 

Edited December 8, 2021 by Morien

[werecorpse]

Thanks

[werecorpse]

I always thought importance went Siz by a mile, then con just ahead of strength, then a fair way behind are Dex then App.
 

App is not relevant in the discussion because it’s use is unrelated to combat. I like some of the making App more useful suggestions in other threads but I’m not addressing that here. I have tended to use App a lot in social stuff it’s the one stat that really matters in that aspect of the game so players making it a dump stat are boosting their combat sure but they take a big hit over all. 
 

My suggestion is purely looking at the 4 stats that affect combat. it gets rid of the uber stat but maybe it doesn’t make the other three sufficiently close. On another level it also has the advantage in the out of combat sense of being able to visualise your powerful knight without them being a hulking giant. 
 

A good question is what is the order of importance in combat of the derived stats? 
I would say HP then damage though they are pretty close (I go back and forth on these), then major wound, then knockdown, then healing rate, then movement. 
so make strength relevant in Damage, HP, movement 1,2, 5 &6

con relevant in HP, major wound & healing rate 1, 3,5

Make dex relevant in damage, knockdown and movement , 2, 4 & 6

It does look like Str is too useful though I’ve tended to find movement something that’s hand waved and healing rate of little significance but maybe take it out of healing rate: make it just con?

 

 

[Morien]

2 hours ago, werecorpse said:

A good question is what is the order of importance in combat of the derived stats? 

I would say HP then damage though they are pretty close (I go back and forth on these), then major wound, then knockdown, then healing rate, then movement.

I'd rank them probably like:
1. Damage (rolled every time you hit an opponent; low damage might mean you can't hurt the opponent while high damage allows you to end fights quickly, on your own terms)
2. Knockdown (comes up every other time when you get hit or more often if it is low or enemy's damage is high, low Knockdown means you are spending a lot of the fight at a disadvantage)
3. Major Wound (the one thing that can end the fight in a single blow AND cost you stat points; however, usually a 'high enough' CON is all you need)
4. HP (if it comes down to who has a couple of hit points more, something has gone wrong already)
---- (bit of a gap here)
5. Healing Rate (if going by the book; in our house-rules, successful First Aid heals Healing Rate, not 1d3, and this makes Healing Rate significantly more useful, bumping it up to 4th place; that being said, HR 3 is MUCH better than HR 2 even with normal rules, and has saved some lives from the dreaded Degradation)
6. Movement (because it is usually handwaved away or you are sitting on your horse)

So, using the current rules:
SIZ: 1, 2, and 4.
DEX: 2 (but high SIZ means you seldom have to roll DEX; a point in SIZ is MUCH better than a point in DEX), and 6
STR: 1, 5, 6
CON: 3, 4 and 5

This is pretty much what I tend to see in PKs' statlines:
SIZ: 16-18 (at least until MWs and Aging start working on them)
DEX: 8-11
STR: 15-18 (to get that sweet sweet 6d6 damage, and maybe a point of extra; THEN you can raise CON)
CON: 14+ (we have a couple of players who are absolutely paranoid about MWs, and try to max out CON; granted, it does mean that they almost never take a MW)

So yeah, I can see the point that even with my suggested changes, SIZ is still the King and DEX is the dump stat, but it does weaken SIZ and gives DEX a chance to do what it was meant to do: matter in Knockdown. If CON gets Healing Rate, I think it would become the second-most important stat, with the players starting to think in terms of 5d6 and high CON (HR 4 would be super useful with our house-rules), or 6d6 and only moderate CON. As I said above, currently it is 'get 6d6 first, and then raise CON'. I could see that shifting to 'start with high CON and 5d6, and then raise STR until you get 6d6'.

[Voord 99]

This may be because my players are relatively new to the game and aren’t the type to worry about optimization in any case.  

But I find that using the 6e Quickstart rule of declaring actions in combat in inverse DEX order can do a little — not saying that it does a lot — to make DEX a bit more meaningful, largely in situations in which you have multiple opponents.   This depends to an extent on random Trait rolls determining exactly what an opponent does, so that it’s not too predictable.  Is that Saxon that the PK knocked down going to be sensible and fight defensively while they get up, or are they feeling heroic/aggressive and going to force the PK to fight two opponents this round?  Or is that one going to run away, so that, if you have a higher DEX, you know that you only have one actual opponent if you ignore the one who’s fleeing?

More varied combat options would add to this effect, but I know they’re hard to design.

At any rate, I’m finding that my players are actually giving their characters reasonable if not stellar DEX. 12-13ish.  It might be that they just dislike the idea of slow, clumsy characters, though.

Edited December 8, 2021 by Voord 99

[Oleksandr]

4th edition had use for DEX in the form of feint... (if i remember correctly, Paladin has this option too)

[Mugen]

16 hours ago, Voord 99 said:

This may be because my players are relatively new to the game and aren’t the type to worry about optimization in any case.  

But I find that using the 6e Quickstart rule of declaring actions in combat in inverse DEX order can do a little — not saying that it does a lot — to make DEX a bit more meaningful, largely in situations in which you have multiple opponents. 

It's also important to make decisions concerning offensive or defensive stances.

[Voord 99]

That’s true, although in practice that hasn’t come up as much in our game.  It’s tended to be “Can I ignore one opponent or not?”  But that may be a matter of me not being imaginative enough about the choices that I have opponents make.

I’ll be interested to see how this aspect of the 6e combat rules interacts with what 6e does with the optional combat tactics.  They were modified significantly between 3e/4e and 5e, so I imagine they may be tweaked again.   For instance, if one went back to 3e’s “Defensive and Uncontrolled cancel each other out,” then you’d be giving the higher-DEX character a straightforward veto on those tactics (nice and easy to explain), as long as they want to force a normal opposed roll.  

But let’s assume that nothing changes  (and we are talking about one opponent only).

• Opponent fights normally: Sir Dexterous can respond with Uncontrolled or Defensive.  Not very useful.  I think this is most useful late in the game?  If armor is very good, as taking an opponent’s attack in return for +10 might be acceptable against an average opponent — if your DEX is high enough that you’re not that worried about Knockdown.  Most situations in which you’d fight Defensively are situations in which you’d do so no matter what your opponent chose to do.  
• Opponent fights Defensively: Sir Dexterous can respond with Uncontrolled.  Both have +10, so tied criticals not unlikely.  But if they don’t, only Sir Dexterous can do damage, and they have a decent chance of it being critical damage.  This has some use, e.g. in situations in which Sir Dexterous wants to finish off an opponent so that they can go to the aid of a comrade.  At any rate, it makes Defensive less viable for the other person.  They’re probably better off accepting normal combat against Sir Dexterous.
• Opponent’s attack is Uncontrolled: 1) Sir Dexterous can fight Defensively, if they want to stall, although it’s not a great option, as they can’t do damage.  2) They can go Uncontrolled themselves,  +10 to both, resolved simultaneously.  3) Or just fight normally, as they would most likely have done in any case.  This is where I think it’s really hurting Sir Dexterous that they probably have lower damage than Sir Big, especially if they are fighting Sir Big.  Their most appealing counter is probably (3), but the effectiveness of (3) is dependent on damage.

It looks to me as if, if you wanted to enhance this effect, one thing to explore is if one can provide Sir Dexterous with an option that makes it a very bad idea for Sir Big to try an Uncontrolled Attack, that his faster and more cunning opponent will just exploit his recklessness.  

Some version of Double Feint in which you have enhanced Knockdown?  (Has the same problem as the existing Double Feint, in that it’s probably a little too good, meaning that the cost of failing the DEX roll needs to be high or it needs to have a significant negative modifier — creating the difficulty that caused Mr. Stafford to remove Double Feint.)  

One possibility might be that Double Feint normally only allows you to bypass your opponent’s shield (which makes a certain narrative sense) — but if they’re not getting shield protection anyway, as with All-Out Attack, Double Feint has an enhanced effect?  

(EDIT: I am also assuming here that whatever one did with Double Feint, DEX would not be modified by armor.)

 

Edited December 9, 2021 by Voord 99

[Mugen]

@Voord 99In my games, players loved fighting Defensively. But that was when the rules allowed it to deal normal damage on a critical...

Also, Uncontrolled and Defensive cancelled each other. One of my players chose to reach 20 in DEX for fun, and used Double Feint a lot.

Edited December 9, 2021 by Mugen

[Voord 99]

This wouldn’t do much, but I don’t think there’s a reason not to allow a critical DEX roll to prevent knockdown even when the damage is 2xSIZ.

EDIT: Another thought.  Battle narratives in medieval romance sometimes feature an unhorsed knight springing quickly to their feet.  How about opposed DEX rolls to get up from knockdown by a mounted opponent too quickly to be attacked, so that it’s only -5/+5?

Edited December 9, 2021 by Voord 99