What to do in Seshnela a Fireday evening.

[JRE]

In the interesting  Western Hero Wars Status Quo thread there was a discussion on the themes of a Seshnela game in the opening years of the Hero Wars.

However, few actual game possibilities were discussed, besides the Star Wars rebels / join the evil empire campaign or the fate of the Navigationalist refugees, spreading all over the coasts.

Jeff opened the challenge on returning to Greg Stafford’s initial inspiration, Prince Valiant, but nobody was willing to try.

Although my main interest is further East, New Seshnela and the Malkioni interest me since the 90s, so I will present some ideas for the period 1625-1630. I will break into several pieces, so it is easier to reply than a long essay. I hope this will not be too long.

 

As a campaign arc, the main event in this period is New Seshnela invading Safelster following its victory over Nolos and Pasos, and being pushed back, supposedly by the return of several Archons / Arkats and I suppose shattering the huge personal power of Theoblanc. In the background there will be the first movements of a rulership challenge that will end up with an unknown Talar ruling three Western kingdoms. Although it seems many people expect them to be Loskalm, Seshnela and Safelster, the fact that he invades Safelster makes me think that it is not one of the kingdoms. So, I propose the three kingdoms are Loskalm, Seshnela and Tanisor. We also have the Brithini return, the elven reforestation, and the complex dynamics of Brithini, Vadeli, Waertagi and the Wolf pirates.

In a similar way to Dragon Pass, most players will be expected to represent the resistance against the Evil Empire, while a few will be running a kind of First Order game, with inquisitorial watchers and iron-plated Stormtroopers. But that will happen in Safelster, so it is not our main interest here.

Going to Fronela as wannabe crusaders against War could be fun, but it is not Seshnela.

[JRE]

You could have a political / diplomatic game among the Great Houses of the Kingdom of New Seshnela, including closet heretics, forbidden magics, and inquisitors, but it looks quite hard to do right, and that is the kind of situation Hrestol and Prince Valiant want to leave behind. Not heroic enough.

I see two connected quests, and two follow up series. The first one is to find the True Grail Serpent Crown of Seshnela. That would weaken the position of Guilmarn and Theoblanc, strengthen the faction that gets it, and open the door to the second stage. The search could be expanded by looking for the other original pieces of the regalia. That requires that the current “recreated” set is fake, which I fully support.

The second stage, or the main objective for many, is recreating Seshnela, which requires getting the support of Seshna Likita, dealing somehow with the Luatha, and either physically or spiritually joining the broken pieces of Old Seshnela.

All kind of characters could be behind one or both quests, so it is open to Rokari traditionalists, Castle Coast Old Hrestoli, Navigationalist fugitives, Pithdarian closet hrestoli, arkati or henotheists from Safelster, or trader princes from Maniria. Even a wolf pirate or an Arolanit exile could fit.

Join exciting adventures among the ruins of Old Seshnela and Slontos, meeting all kinds of Elder races, Middle Sea Empire remnants and playing hide and seek with the Luatha. Horrors from the past, robots, dinosaurs, exotic attractive partners, marriage proposals… The challenges could be spiritual, physical, or moral, and will see also the return of the Vadeli and the Brithini. Poor player characters, great villains, and it will be difficult to decide who is the lesser of the two evils. And on the side the political campaign in New Seshnela mentioned above that could be taken in small doses.

To avoid the rootless adventurer syndrome, Old Seshnela could become the new frontier, with refugees from Nolos, Rokari fugitives from the inquisition, and other assorted heretics setting up new strongholds, specially once the players get the support of Seshna and possibly reach an accommodation with the Luatha.

The chosen Talar could play a role like Argrath. Many people have proposed Aamor as a candidate, supposing he survives finding Brithos. He could well be the sponsor of the PCs in their activities in Old Seshnela. Mulliam of Nolos or Porfain of Pasos, if they survive, or other refugees of their families could be good patrons as well.

Recreating Old Seshnela and getting the crown would open the way for rulership of Seshnela, and kicking out Guilmarn and his cronies would add Tanisor. The next arc will see the aftermath of Loskalm’s War on War and the strength of the West focused on Fronela, ideally ending with the three kingdoms joined together. Depending on any potential civil war in Tanisor, and the powers of the true regalia, consolidating Fronela may take place before or after Tanisor.

I would not make one of the players the Talar, as he is bound to be tightly bound to the official timeline, like Argrath, including several recorded defeats, though he could well survive both crises. At that point Western characters should be invested in Central Genertela through both Maniria-Kethaela and the Janube river.

Another event that should remain on the background is the Elven reforestation, but it can provide a lot of traction in sunken Slontos and Maniria.

[JRE]

There are two main follow ups. One follows the Talar and the action will move to Fronela, while Seshnela consolidates and expands into New Seshnela / Tanisor. I do not know if Rokarism survives the Arkati heroquest attack as a major religion, or if the unified kingdoms return to some form of hrestolism. My own preference is for a shameless Seshnelan effort to return to the glory of the Middle Sea Empire, making them Old Hrestoli flavored, rejecting the Sharp Abiding Book for the full book. Not enough time to get the whole Godlearner set, as we have an appointment with destiny in a few years, but enough for renewed conflict with Safelster and the Arkati, and probably renewed difficulties with our dear friends the Brithini and the Vadeli. So action in Tanisor, conflicts with the increasing Arkati power, and some kind of significant change in Loskalm and up the Janube.

The second one would be a Sea campaign, where characters either try to recreate the trade position of the Quinpolic league for the new kingdom, trying to recover the glories of the Middle Sea Empire, or just enjoy playing an exploration / piracy game. A good excuse to visit faraway places, meet interesting people, and kill them. A variant of this, that I call Tomb Raiders, is to use the experience gained in Seshnela and Slontos, and move to Jrustela, either as a Seshnelan colonization / exploitation effort, or as amateur archaeologists / pillagers. It would be a pity if no player character ever sees the wonder of the Curustus capstan or meets Timinits.

Remember the Brithini prophecy:

“Three things for a Hero War: courage, desperation, and free men”.

Hrestoli Men of-all and Navigationalist fugitives seem the best choice here. And revenge is a strong motivator. Guilmarn and Theoblanc win in 1622-23. But I doubt they will make it into the 1630s.

[scott-martin]

I love this. 

Having taken a step back (in order to get a running start on a leap) I think Seshnela has its choice of dramatic roles in the terminal third age. The land, its human resources and mythic history can be used as a reservoir of exotic ideas and materials for the Dragon Pass hero war. People are driven east and their abilities are put to work. Whatever independent agenda they follow is not recorded in the documents we currently have. Meanwhile your tomb raiders and other opportunistic outsiders are raiding the area for secrets to deploy back home. Not much of this makes it into the Dragon Pass chronicles, which suggests that like many of the more interesting people fleeing Rokarist tyranny a lot of it actually ends up elsewhere, in somebody else's hero war we don't know about yet.

A Hero War finds a use for things. While it's superficially tempting to imagine western resources flowing into the Lunar war effort, it's just too awkward a fit unless you look north beyond the Janube. The larger diaspora seems to flee along the more southerly corridors into Nochet and the islands, but there isn't a lot of documentation of Argrath finding a use for these people and their magic. They must go somewhere else.

I think they ultimately go home to play out the real Seshnelan hero war, which is fought on the domestic symbolic territory in order to reveal the land to itself. In this version, the saga plays out a lot like the old Sartarite campaign, with exiles scattering across strange lands and gathering experience and resources along the way to make their return convincing. Some of these strange lands are foreign countries: the wreckage of Malkonwal, Black Horse Country, the apostate enclaves scattered hither and yon, the vast sleep of Umathela. Others are in the past now, buried treasure underfoot. A lot of these people are actually within the Wolf Pirates right now and so will feed into that epic, far from Argrath and the Moon.

[jajagappa]

It occurs to me that whereas Dragon Pass/Peloria is about the conflict between the Moon/Sky vs. Storm gods (with dragons thrown in), the conflict in the West epitomizes the struggle between Humans (mortal/immortal) vs. the Gods.

After all, from the fragment of Argrath and the Devil we learn:  "And he said “There is only one secret now, and that is what we have done. The world will remain as it is now, without interference from any god or goddess. Now it is a free world, of humankind, for humankind, and ruled by humankind.”"

And the fall of the gods (or separation of the Gods World) says that the Westerners (whether Malkioni or Brithini) did triumph - their spells separated the worlds forever.

[JRE]

13 hours ago, scott-martin said:

I love this. 

Having taken a step back (in order to get a running start on a leap) I think Seshnela has its choice of dramatic roles in the terminal third age. The land, its human resources and mythic history can be used as a reservoir of exotic ideas and materials for the Dragon Pass hero war. People are driven east and their abilities are put to work. Whatever independent agenda they follow is not recorded in the documents we currently have. Meanwhile your tomb raiders and other opportunistic outsiders are raiding the area for secrets to deploy back home. Not much of this makes it into the Dragon Pass chronicles, which suggests that like many of the more interesting people fleeing Rokarist tyranny a lot of it actually ends up elsewhere, in somebody else's hero war we don't know about yet.

A Hero War finds a use for things. While it's superficially tempting to imagine western resources flowing into the Lunar war effort, it's just too awkward a fit unless you look north beyond the Janube. The larger diaspora seems to flee along the more southerly corridors into Nochet and the islands, but there isn't a lot of documentation of Argrath finding a use for these people and their magic. They must go somewhere else.

I think they ultimately go home to play out the real Seshnelan hero war, which is fought on the domestic symbolic territory in order to reveal the land to itself. In this version, the saga plays out a lot like the old Sartarite campaign, with exiles scattering across strange lands and gathering experience and resources along the way to make their return convincing. Some of these strange lands are foreign countries: the wreckage of Malkonwal, Black Horse Country, the apostate enclaves scattered hither and yon, the vast sleep of Umathela. Others are in the past now, buried treasure underfoot. A lot of these people are actually within the Wolf Pirates right now and so will feed into that epic, far from Argrath and the Moon.

I think the thematic themes are first the unification of the mortal Malkioni, the conflict with the three "elder" Malkioni races, bunching the Waertagi with the Vadeli and the Brithini, and then their war moves East, with the East pushing back, both the Lunar empire in Fronela and the Lanksti in Ralios. The information we have shows the Wersterners beaten, but not necessarily out, and the Flood will hit them worse than Central Genertela. At this scale both Guilmarn and the Kingdom of War appear as sideshows, but I agree that the recovery of Seshnela and the unification of the West, a new attempt to reestablish a kingdom of logic, is the main western drive.

However we may well have a hidden effect here. Organized magic and magical associations are western, and if Sartar can compete for years with the population of the Empire it needs an influx of competent magicians and people. Mularik is probably the first of many, and I am sure Westerners will associate the Red Moon with Gbaji, and join the war against the Lunars. We know of the Three kingdoms pressuring Arrolia. It would not be difficult to assume that they are also sending support and volunteers to Kethaela, and from there onwards against the Empire. It would be ironic if Ardinyar's victory in Ralios actually helps the Monster Empire by avoiding a new front through Dorastor, or more  resources through Kethaela. We will probably have to wait and play it out, if we live so long...

As for effect, we also have the Far East and Pamaltela, and that will absorb also a lot Western people. We still have the potential of Tolat's red sword, and the conflict with Waertagi and Vadeli will spill all over the world. 

And the poor elves. A plot years on the making and humans probably will restore the status quo in a few years, though that may be what pushes Nida in alliance with the Three Kingdoms. 

 

[JRE]

12 hours ago, jajagappa said:

It occurs to me that whereas Dragon Pass/Peloria is about the conflict between the Moon/Sky vs. Storm gods (with dragons thrown in), the conflict in the West epitomizes the struggle between Humans (mortal/immortal) vs. the Gods.

After all, from the fragment of Argrath and the Devil we learn:  "And he said “There is only one secret now, and that is what we have done. The world will remain as it is now, without interference from any god or goddess. Now it is a free world, of humankind, for humankind, and ruled by humankind.”"

And the fall of the gods (or separation of the Gods World) says that the Westerners (whether Malkioni or Brithini) did triumph - their spells separated the worlds forever.

I am not sure it was their action as such, but I am sure it was their techniques, if you consider the God Learners building on Arkat's secrets, and everybody trying to exploit them bringing up the fall of the gods. Though I am sure that Brithos defeat / destruction will also cause some doomsday Zzabur's surprise to go off. And I hope we all agree Brithos has to go...

Paraphrasing Gibson, the fall of the gods is already here, it is just unevenly distributed.

That quote of Argrath and the Devil influenced a lot my Dumb theories musings.

[Brian Duguid]

13 hours ago, jajagappa said:

After all, from the fragment of Argrath and the Devil we learn:  "And he said “There is only one secret now, and that is what we have done. The world will remain as it is now, without interference from any god or goddess. Now it is a free world, of humankind, for humankind, and ruled by humankind.”"

And the fall of the gods (or separation of the Gods World) says that the Westerners (whether Malkioni or Brithini) did triumph - their spells separated the worlds forever.

This is a perspective on the future of the theist cultures in Glorantha. What of the animists? Are they to be dismissed as theists-lite (big spirits considered to be the same as little gods); or is there a possibility that the future described in KoS is not about the loss of the deities, but about the elimination of human obedience to divine or priestly dictate? If it's the latter, there may be a space for the animist cultures to hold a different status in the brave new world.

[JRE]

I doubt we will get an official version of Fourth Age Glorantha, so it will be your choice. King of Sartar may not be true, or the disconnect may be temporary, like the Windstop or the Syndics Ban, broken by some heroes (PCs). Or it may become a conflict between sorcerers and animists, with central Glorantha devastated by the aftermath of the war (Magic Fallout). Or maybe all magic slowly fades away as the runes stop supplying power and the world becomes a round ball floating in space and the sun is now a ball of plasma really far away. 

The godless future is actively proposed by some Malkioni factions, and they will be working towards it. So that will affect the situation in Seshnela. If Brithini and their godless allies succeed, Rune magic could be weaker in the area, or have something like the death of Orlanth affecting more gods. Maybe they send spies and agents to Dragon Pass to learn how the Lunars killed Orlanth, trying to reproduce the effect at a larger scale. That objective could be enough to have brithini and vadeli working together, a frightening perspective.

The New Hrestoli solution to the Kingdom of War may be of that kind, cutting the KoW access to their gods, but cutting off all access to beneficial gods as well, and it becomes a kind of nuclear solution used in the Hero Wars. If that effect cuts off also Joy and Solace, that means that the Hrestoli revelation is somehow divine, and that may well tear apart the whole New Hrestoli movement, as well as making the Fourth age bleaker.

We have some guideposts, but the text is not written, so unlike Sartar in 1622, here you can influence the future, if you write something attractive and fun. 

Edited April 7, 2022 by JRE
Some extra ideas...

[Brian Duguid]

Yes, I'm much less interested in the overall outcome hinted at by KoS than I am in the different factions and drivers that contribute towards it. And the animists always get pushed to the edge of our Gloranthan consciousness just as they get pushed to the edges of civilisation in game.

I have a very high-level campaign outline sketched out for an attempted revival of the Serpent Beast Alliance, off the back of the resurgence of draconic powers in central Genertela, and whatever links there may be between dragons, serpents, and the various descendants of Hykim/Mikyh. Similarly I have a short outline for what the Hsunchen tribes are up to in Fronela, noting that for the northernmost Rathori in 1625, it has been only 5 waking years since the start of the Syndics Ban: the conflict between the White Bear Empire and Loskalm is something fresh in their minds, not ancient history. For some of the older Rathori, they will still see Loskalm very much as Snodal's realm. The Kingdom of Loskalm may see themselves fighting the Kingdom of War, but there will be other forces at play, especially once the terrain gets reforested and the Glacier moves.

Getting a little away from Seshnela I guess, but there I have an underlying curiosity about serpents as a cross-cutting theme.

Edited April 7, 2022 by Brian Duguid

[jajagappa]

4 hours ago, Brian Duguid said:

This is a perspective on the future of the theist cultures in Glorantha. What of the animists? Are they to be dismissed as theists-lite (big spirits considered to be the same as little gods); or is there a possibility that the future described in KoS is not about the loss of the deities, but about the elimination of human obedience to divine or priestly dictate?

Likely the Humanists/Rationalists of the West find the powers of the gods far more threatening and far more difficult to control.  Cutting off the link between the theists and their gods (except through well controlled sorcery) proves the power of the Invisible God and the triumph of Rationalism.

The spirits on the other hand appear far easier to control (and perhaps enslave) for the needs of the zzaburi.  But separating the shaman from the fetch and the Spirit World is less straightforward.  In Guilmarn's Seshnela, I'd expect the zzaburi to direct "witch-hunters" against the shamans and drive them to the fringes of society.

But that's simply a possible outcome in the West.  What occurs elsewhere (Prax, Pent, Pamaltela) is likely very different.

[JRE]

I agree there is surely a link between the Serpent Beast Alliance and the Serpent kingdom, though the Serpent kings really pushed back the Pendali and other hsunchen. I do not see the dragon link, except really back into the Godtime, and the West has always been somehow Dragon empty. I wonder if it has something to do with Alakoring Dragonbreaker's success. Maybe if you kill a True Dragon, even its memory disappears.

Or maybe Zzabur has a quite effective Command Dragon spell, and Dragons have kept a safe distance from Brithos since before Time. Another explanation where the Waertagi got their ships, why they are still friendly with the Brithini after the Closing and why nobody in Time has seen a Sea Dragon without Waertagi...

In the breaking of the Moon, the help from the West, Ardinyar and the Storm Dragon, they did not really come from the West (considering the Crater), it was South West,. So not much Dragon energy in the West, in my opinion.

[Brian Duguid]

4 hours ago, JRE said:

I do not see the dragon link, except really back into the Godtime, and the West has always been somehow Dragon empty.

From Well of Daliath, "Hykim and Mikyh are sometimes reputed to be the children of the earth and a dragon ... Hykim is usually shown as a draconic creature ..."

It was deep within the Orggee Snake Caves that the dragons / pseudo-dragons Hykim and Mikyh gave birth to the world, in northern Vustria. The site remains sacred to the Serpent Beast shamans.

Lake Felster was carved out of the earth by a war by the storm gods against the "Serpent-Beasts of Hykim", perhaps some echo of Orlanth vs Aroka further east.

Snakes, serpents, ancestral dragons, children of the earth. Throughout the west, the Hsunchen are even named the Hykimi, emphasising the beast-people's ancient lineage back to their ancestral dragon. Perhaps any relationship to the Likitae or the Serpent Kings is merely coincidental, although note the presence at Ylream's ceremony (Guide page 409) of representatives of the Rathori, Alekki, Damali, Basmoli/Pendali, Tawari and others (playing fast and loose, yes). As the text below the picture says "The Serpent Kings ruled in a time when the difference between man and beast was not as great as it is now" - beep! Paging the Hykimi!

Yes, none of that explains the conflict between the Serpent Kings and the Hykimi / Serpent Beast Alliance, I know, can't have everything.

I think perhaps in the West here be dragons after all, it's just that dragons / serpents express differently in different places. cf. the East for further contrast.

[Snugz]

For re-uniting the shattered land of Seshnela w/its people + energy via Seshna Likita, one thing I thought of is that the giant iron spikes that the Luathans drove into the ground at the shattering need to be removed, and that is a great quest for heroes to do. The spikes may literally bind Seshna Likita in slumber/imprisonment; keeping her powers away from pesky humans. The spikes are sure to be heavily guarded (and hard to find) and most likely the heroes must negotiate (heroquest?) some way of the Luathans letting them remove them; or helping them; but I'd think it wouldn't go well if the Luathans remained opposed. And how would the spikes be removed? Finding a special song to sing them out? Magic tongs? A powerful gnome? Finding a dragon to pull them out? Sounds like fun.

[JRE]

I had forgotten about the spikes, but it fits very well with the theme. I would make the method different and suitable to who controls the area. I would add other teams, so the players will need to extract a few, but not all of them, using different methods. Diplomacy and swimming / dancing with Mermen, gifts of magic seeds for elves, and a magic trial and old-fashioned wrestling with beast men, for instance. And the actual extraction, also with different solutions, from a dwarven iron gobbler to an old middle sea empire automaton, or a team of giant serpents and an unbreakable rope... As long as the players have fun, there can be as many or as few spikes as desired, and the PCs may end up visiting all the Kanthor islands. 

A way to expand the quest all over the world, once they wake Seshna Likita, is for her to request they bring Herjan the Raider back, so he can atone for Froalar's death..

[jajagappa]

1 hour ago, Snugz said:

For re-uniting the shattered land of Seshnela w/its people + energy via Seshna Likita, one thing I thought of is that the giant iron spikes that the Luathans drove into the ground at the shattering need to be removed, and that is a great quest for heroes to do.

There's some interesting polarities in Seshnela, either of which seem playable.

On the one hand, we have disparate groups who are looking to reunite the shattered land and re-energize Seshna Likita.  These are likely those who see the King of Seshnela as a tyrant-conqueror aided by evil zzaburi inquisitors who must be toppled.

Then we have the King of Seshnela and the zzaburi.  If we cast them in something of the guise of King David or Solomon, aided by right-thinking priests, then they are searching out and driving back the pagan krjalki who seek to sacrifice to and resurrect the Devil while restoring Rightness to the land. 

The Luathans and their spikes are an interesting sidenote.  What is their goal, or motivation?  How do they fit vs. the Brithini/Vadeli?  Will they take further action, and if so, on who's behalf?

[JRE]

“Three things for a Hero War: courage, desperation, and free men”.

It is clear who I am partial to. But I agree the Royalists are suitably different from the Lunars to be a refreshing change as opponents.

I would play that the Luathans are fed up and want someone to fulfill some prophecy or preset conditions so their watch is over and they can return home. Nobody knows this, so I would have the PCs being the first lucky / courageous enough to talk with them and discover the requirements. Which may well be (IMG) to find and deliver to them the original copy of The Abiding Book, which would be a very difficult choice for any Malkioni.

Lots of fetching quests, like in a bad Computer RPG, but I am just thinking of the potential of the geomancy spell. 

[jajagappa]

3 hours ago, JRE said:

I would play that the Luathans are fed up and want someone to fulfill some prophecy or preset conditions so their watch is over and they can return home. Nobody knows this, so I would have the PCs being the first lucky / courageous enough to talk with them and discover the requirements.

Of course, the truth may be that the Luathans came to kill the Devil, and did so, driving the iron spike through its heart.  They continue their watch to ensure no one pulls it out (at least until they are satisfied that some particular conditions have been met, e.g. the "heart" of the Devil, perhaps represented as some aspect or figure of the Middle Sea Empire, is permanently dead and has passed through the Gates of Dusk).