StevenGEmsley Posted July 20, 2023 Share Posted July 20, 2023 (edited) Obviously the old WFRP was heavily based on the Holy Roman Empire; in the aesthetic, the political structure, the technological level. I've been very impressed with A R Kavli's Renaissance : 1520 supplement, and my players are enthused, but want a fantasy game. I have all the Enemy Within books for 1st Edition WFRP, but have never run it. For anyone familiar with it (I'm yet to reread it), would it suffer overly much from replacing the machinations of Chaos with Satanic cults and setting it in the Holy Roman Empire instead of the Old World, with the place names changed and the serial numbers filed off? Cthulhu cults are also an option... Edited July 20, 2023 by StevenGEmsley 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Butters Posted July 20, 2023 Share Posted July 20, 2023 I think it would be a relatively painless fit just some work on how the cults are portrayed and even then that shouldn't be too hard as all evil cults corrupt for similar reasons the pursuit of power. It's been a while since I looked at WFRP but I think early on apart from the odd mutated chaos warrior and Beastman it was all pretty low key at least early on. I guess changing the demons around to fit might be a little tricky as they have so much personality but every devil and Imp could as well. Though I'm not sure if you run a tweaked published adventure what you would use instead of Warpstone and Morrslieb. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StevenGEmsley Posted July 21, 2023 Author Share Posted July 21, 2023 It's so long since I read it...how integral to The Enemy Within is the presence of Morrslieb? 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StevenGEmsley Posted July 21, 2023 Author Share Posted July 21, 2023 (edited) As for warpstone, I have a couple of ideas: • Either a corrupted type of Philosopher's Stone, created by Satanic alchemists, or • a riff on Plato's Prima Materia (First Matter), associated with primal chaos - the building blocks of God's creation of the universe Edited July 21, 2023 by StevenGEmsley 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StevenGEmsley Posted July 21, 2023 Author Share Posted July 21, 2023 (edited) And as it's a fantasy version of the HRE - hey, we have elves, dwarves, beasties, magic and demons running around - I'm minded to throw an evil twin of Luna up there in the sky. Maybe...Hecate? Edited July 21, 2023 by StevenGEmsley 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StevenGEmsley Posted July 21, 2023 Author Share Posted July 21, 2023 (edited) So how, in a Judeo-Christian context, do we justify these fantasy PC races? Well, they're all linked to the Mittelmarch (a term stolen from Michael Moorcock's excellent The War Hound and the World's Pain), which in this campaign will be an analogue to faerie. The origin of the fae is that when Lucifer led His rebellion against God, there were some angels who would not side with Lucifer but who refused to raise arms against their fellow angels. In His wrath, God cast these down to earth, where they bred with mortal men and women, giving us the elves, dwarves, trolls and goblins who are our PC race choices (as well as humans, of course!) Edited July 21, 2023 by StevenGEmsley Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nozbat Posted July 21, 2023 Share Posted July 21, 2023 10 minutes ago, StevenGEmsley said: The origin of the fae is that when Lucifer led His rebellion against God, there were some angels who would nit side with Lucifer but who refused to raise arms against their fellow angels. In his wrath, God cast these down to earth, where they bred with mortal men and women, giving us the elves, dwarves, trolls and goblins who are our PC race choices (as well as humans, of course!) You have Genesis 6 v2 to work that with... a very interesting verse imo. 11 minutes ago, StevenGEmsley said: So how, in a Judeo-Christian context, do we justify these fantasy PC races? Well, they're all linked to the Mittelmarch (a term stolen from Michael Moorcock's excellent The War Hound and the World's Pain), which in this campaign will be an analogue to faerie. I've always gone with the version of Faerie in Poul Anderson's The Broken Sword. Faerie is all around normal human existence but only those with Second Sight had the ability to actually perceive it. So a craggy outcrop might actually be an Elven palace.. or the storm at sea that creates waves might be a passing Troll War fleet. Every so often I'd pull my players into something weird where Færie and Miðgarðr (or Mittilagart in OHG)intersect in that dark wood. Anderson's other book I think is useful is Three Hearts and Three Lions which brings in some of the Charlemagne Cycle heroes but has a darker version of Elven machinations 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StevenGEmsley Posted July 21, 2023 Author Share Posted July 21, 2023 Genesis 6:2 is perfect! Moorcock's Mittelmarch is a different approach, and I'm mainly stealing the name, as in War Hound the Mittelmarch is a borderland between Earth and Hell where only the damned can enter. However it does have some faerie-like qualities. The seasons are reversed, familiar objects in the same location are different there, time passes differently and it is home to fantastical creatures, so as I'm not cleaving too closely to Moorcock's version I can yoink ideas that sound cool! I've not read any Anderson, but I'm starting to believe I should... 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StevenGEmsley Posted July 21, 2023 Author Share Posted July 21, 2023 (edited) So, demons then. Pretty much a "change the names and hope no-one notices" approach! Slaanesh becomes Demoriel, the Twice-Exiled Tzeentch becomes Coronzom, the Dweller in the Abyss Khorne becomes Abaddon, the Destroyer Nurgle becomes Resheph, the White Rider I envision a host of demons under Satan, all with their own plots and schemes, but these are the ones which easily map to WFRP's Big Four. Guess I need to write up some factions now! Edited July 21, 2023 by StevenGEmsley 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StevenGEmsley Posted July 21, 2023 Author Share Posted July 21, 2023 So dug out the first scenario, Mistaken Identity. Seems the motivation for the baddies is to stir up the Sigmarite Heresy to bring about chaos and war. My campaign is set in the Holy Roman Empire, starting in 1520. Just after the publication of Luther's 95 Theses*. This could work!! * Luther is absolutely not part of the demonic plan (or is he...?) but the cults will certainly seize on the opportunities presented by a schism in the Catholic Church!! 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StevenGEmsley Posted July 21, 2023 Author Share Posted July 21, 2023 Okay, throwing this out there as I don't have an idea yet... If Hecate (Morrsleib) is made of Prmia Materia (Warpstone), how did it get there? And why is it associated with Evil (Chaos)? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Butters Posted July 21, 2023 Share Posted July 21, 2023 10 hours ago, StevenGEmsley said: It's so long since I read it...how integral to The Enemy Within is the presence of Morrslieb? I think there was a section fairly early on where the moon is mutating people in a town the players are in and the main NPCs they interact with become mutated. It's mainly background events but it's quite a big background if that makes sense. As it's the moon causing people to act the way they are (It's been a while) I think there is a fire/riot going on so maybe dropping the moon effects and replacing it with a religious issue is doable. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Butters Posted July 21, 2023 Share Posted July 21, 2023 10 hours ago, StevenGEmsley said: a riff on Plato's Prima Materia (First Matter), associated with primal chaos - the building blocks of God's creation of the universe That sounds awesome and oddly brought to mind the Terry Gilliam film Time Bandits. 😁 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Butters Posted July 21, 2023 Share Posted July 21, 2023 9 hours ago, StevenGEmsley said: So how, in a Judeo-Christian context, do we justify these fantasy PC races? Well, they're all linked to the Mittelmarch (a term stolen from Michael Moorcock's excellent The War Hound and the World's Pain), which in this campaign will be an analogue to faerie. The origin of the fae is that when Lucifer led His rebellion against God, there were some angels who would not side with Lucifer but who refused to raise arms against their fellow angels. In His wrath, God cast these down to earth, where they bred with mortal men and women, giving us the elves, dwarves, trolls and goblins who are our PC race choices (as well as humans, of course!) I like the idea but how would you scale it? It's a knee-jerk reaction but it feels weird to have large amounts of these hybrids around without changing the historical feel so much as to make it lose that aspect. The H.R.E being fairly close to hordes of Greenskins etc. It's a tough one it feels like these hybrids should be fairly small in number the good ones (Elves, Dwarfs etc) almost hiding in amongst the humans. Whilst the Evil ones are the things in the dark forests almost fairy tales, though that might be the Hellboy fan in me coming through. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Butters Posted July 21, 2023 Share Posted July 21, 2023 8 hours ago, StevenGEmsley said: So, demons then. Pretty much a "change the names and hope no-one notices" approach! Slaanesh becomes Demoriel, the Twice-Exiled Tzeentch becomes Coronzom, the Dweller in the Abyss Khorne becomes Abaddon, the Destroyer Nurgle becomes Resheph, the White Rider I envision a host of demons under Satan, all with their own plots and schemes, but these are the ones which easily map to WFRP's Big Four. Guess I need to write up some factions now! Sounds good, I must admit I don't really know how the Princes of Hell work in regard to Lucifer, do they follow him 100%, or did they rebel as they also wanted more freedom and control? I ask this as the Chaos gods are always messing up each other's plans which works in the Players' favor sometimes. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nozbat Posted July 21, 2023 Share Posted July 21, 2023 Mythras have just published Factions.. I think you might find it useful if you're running religious schisms It seems to me that Factions are very transferable no matter what D100 system you're playing... I've been using it for my CoC Berlin campaign and intend to use it when I get round to my upcoming Hansa based campaign to keep track of all the political machinations throughout Lübeck and in Novgorod https://www.drivethrurpg.com/product/422477/Mythras-Factions Also but its a while since I read it .. but earlier I was thinking about the BRP Witchcraft supplement might be something to look at too.. but on checking I see it's no longer available 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Butters Posted July 21, 2023 Share Posted July 21, 2023 31 minutes ago, StevenGEmsley said: If Hecate (Morrsleib) is made of Prmia Materia (Warpstone), how did it get there? And why is it associated with Evil (Chaos)? Warhammer has it that Morrslieb was created this way, Quote Ancient myth has it that when the magical energies of Chaos first broke through into the Known World through the Old Ones' Polar Gates, an enormous chunk of warpstone was hurled high into the sky from the destruction of the gates, where it now circles endlessly to this day as the green moon, spreading Chaos on the lands over which it passes. So maybe Hecate was formed from the debris caused when the meteorites/fallen Angels crashed into the Earth when God cast them down? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Butters Posted July 21, 2023 Share Posted July 21, 2023 8 minutes ago, Nozbat said: BRP Witchcraft supplement Damn. I had forgotten that book and it would be super helpful in my campaign right now as well. 😥 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StevenGEmsley Posted July 21, 2023 Author Share Posted July 21, 2023 Good call on BRP Witchcraft! I have that somewhere... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StevenGEmsley Posted July 21, 2023 Author Share Posted July 21, 2023 (edited) As regards numbers of "neutral" angels, I figure the number of conscientious objectors was quite small to begin with, and some have since either sought (and received) forgiveness and returned to Heaven or thrown in their lot with Lucifer, resenting being cast out in the first place. As far as the offspring is concerned, there are enough of them that they aren't stoned in the street, but rare enough that they turn heads. No greenskin hordes, but I love the image of Landksnecht orcs! Edited July 21, 2023 by StevenGEmsley 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StevenGEmsley Posted July 21, 2023 Author Share Posted July 21, 2023 18 minutes ago, Butters said: Sounds good, I must admit I don't really know how the Princes of Hell work in regard to Lucifer, do they follow him 100%, or did they rebel as they also wanted more freedom and control? I ask this as the Chaos gods are always messing up each other's plans which works in the Players' favor sometimes. Nope, plenty of scheming!! 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StevenGEmsley Posted July 21, 2023 Author Share Posted July 21, 2023 10 minutes ago, Butters said: Warhammer has it that Morrslieb was created this way, So maybe Hecate was formed from the debris caused when the meteorites/fallen Angels crashed into the Earth when God cast them down? That'll do it!! Many thanks 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nozbat Posted July 21, 2023 Share Posted July 21, 2023 (edited) 54 minutes ago, StevenGEmsley said: As regards numbers of "neutral" angels, I figure the number of conscientious objection was quite small to begin with, and some have since either saught (and received) forgiveness and returned to Heaven or thrown in their lot with Lucifer, presenting being cast out in the first place. Why am I thinking... Dogma and Good Omens? And having Alan Rickman as a Demon would definitely be the icing on the cake Edited July 21, 2023 by Nozbat Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StevenGEmsley Posted July 21, 2023 Author Share Posted July 21, 2023 Hey, it's an RPG so I can cast who I like! Far too Long since I watched Dogma...great movie!! 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Butters Posted July 21, 2023 Share Posted July 21, 2023 2 hours ago, StevenGEmsley said: Landksnecht orcs! With all those fluffy slit outfits?...yeah you sold me on it, lol. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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