Ties in Group Contests

[Stan Shinn]

In simple contests, you resolve ties by the higher roll getting the victory. Does this also apply to Group Contests and rolls in Sequences?

Here's the QuestWorlds SRD rule for Contests and ties:

"2.3.7 Outcome ... If you both have the same number successes, including if you both have zero successes, then the higher roll has a victory and gains the prize. If your rolls tie, then there is a standoff with neither side able to take control of the prize."

[jajagappa]

4 hours ago, Stan Shinn said:

In simple contests, you resolve ties by the higher roll getting the victory. Does this also apply to Group Contests and rolls in Sequences?

That's how I've played it across the board.

 

[Stan Shinn]

So let's say you have a group contest with three PCs in a fight with a mob of evil henchmen. I guess I'm confused what you do with ties in a group contest where the overall contest is decided but adding up the successes on each side.

Let's say Player A gets 1 success (and resistance gets 0 successes), so a result of 1 success for this PC and 0 successes for the opposition.

Then Player B rolls 0 successes (and resistance gets 1 success), so a result of 0 successes for this PC and 1 success for the opposition.

Then Player C is using an ability rated at 13 and they roll a 9, so one success. Resistance has target number 10 and rolls a 1, also one success. Would Player A then end up with two successes since it is a tie but the PC rolled higher? 

Not factoring in the tie for Player C's roll, you'd have 2 successes for the PCs and 2 successes for the opposition, a tie. So does the Player C tied roll count as 2 successes in which case the PCs side wins the contest?

[jajagappa]

It depends on if this is a Group Simple contest or a Group Extended contest (or whatever the terms might be now in the SRD). **Note: I've not kept up closely with the SRD, so things may have changed since HQG.

In the former case, I use a common difficulty for the mob of evil henchmen.

• Player A gets success, opposition does not. +1 to the players
• Player B gets failure, opposition succeeds. +1 to opposition
• Player C gets success, opposition succeeds, but higher roll to the player. +1 to the players.

The summed result is: +1 to the players. That would be a Marginal Victory/result to the players, so they take some hurt, but overall succeed.

In a Group Extended contest, Players A, B, and C are each facing henchmen in distinct fights where each must defeat their own opponent (as in a 1:1 contest). As these are usually pivotal or climactic events, there is additional scoring to determine the final outcome.

[Stan Shinn]

33 minutes ago, jajagappa said:

It depends on if this is a Group Simple contest or a Group Extended contest (or whatever the terms might be now in the SRD). ...

@jajagappa, this was amazingly helpful! Thank you!

[mfbrandi]

In my permanent rôle as Devil’s advocate, I will give the minority report on the simple group contest:

9 hours ago, jajagappa said:

• Player A gets success, opposition does not. +1 to the players
• Player B gets failure, opposition succeeds. +1 to opposition
• Player C gets success, opposition succeeds, but higher roll to the player. +1 to the players.

The summed result is: +1 to the players. That would be a Marginal Victory/result to the players, so they take some hurt, but overall succeed.

And (from the last time this came up):

Quote

SRD v0.97, sec. 4.2, p. 36:
———————————————————————
The side with the highest number of successes is the overall victor in the [group] contest … If the number of successes is tied the contest ends in a stalemate, with neither side gaining control of the prize … If the result is a tie, but it does not make sense for there to be no outcome, then award the PCs group a zero degree victory
———————————————————————

So:

• success and victory are not the same thing
• degree of victory may be calculated from successes and other stuff
• for a group contest, the other stuff does not include who had the high roll in any component sub-contest°
• there is no need to determine a degree of victory per PC in a group contest, just count their successes
• tie-break at most once, for the group
• a tie-break does not confer an extra success to break the tie, and the victory is zero degree (post-HQG terminology)

In Harald’s take on the example — if I read him rightly — the PCs have one degree of victory, but:

• QuestWorlds allows distinctions between a zero degree victory and a one degree victory.°°
• In QuestWorlds, if Player C’s opposition had had the higher roll and a tie-break had been required, the PCs would still have won (whereas I guess Harald would have given a one degree victory to the opposition in the group contest).
• What if Players A, B, and C all had the same number of successes as their respective oppositions but each player had the high roll in their individual sub-contest? Would they each get an extra success, making a three degree victory for the players? That doesn’t seem right (nor does it seem RAW). We don’t want a tie-break snowball effect — where a victory on a tie-break can be higher degree than some “clean” wins — do we?
• Of course, one could do zero degree group tie-breaks on which side had the most high rolls in tied sub-contests, but that is both fiddly and not guaranteed to deliver a result, so the “if you must have a result, the PCs win” rule is better, IMHO — but so is “if you must have a result, the opposition wins.” 😉
• Don’t ask me how you break a tie in a PvP group contest! Toss a coin? (Actually, I think that is what I would do.)

AFAICT, a group contest has one prize. If the individual sub-contests have meaningful outcomes — narrative “prizes” — requiring individual tie-breaks, perhaps a group contest is not what is called for. Just run individual contests in parallel. I don’t think anyone would complain if the GM said off the cuff, “Because you won most of the individual contests, the opposition breaks and runs,” even if the opposition’s morale wasn’t formally evaluated (e.g. via a group contest): you contest for certain bits of the narrative, and other bits of narrative emerge. Or am I just too loosey-goosey?

As ever, I don’t claim to be a prophet fresh from the desert and a long fast — I may have this totally wrong.
 

——————————————————————————————————————
° I am sure “sub-contest” is not the approved jargon, but you know what I mean.

°° See SRD v0.97, Section 2.3.7.2 Narrating Outcomes.

Spoiler

The GM is narrating a car chase through the busy streets of New Los Angeles. The PCs are trying to catch the demon-worshipper Ath’Zul who has stolen The Eye of Lorus from a museum. Some examples of how the GM might interpret outcomes as follows:

• PC one success vs. Ath’Zul one success, the PC has the higher roll, zero successes difference, and zero degrees of victory: Ath’Zul tries to shake the PCs, his hover bike, weaving in and out of traffic, but the PCs are always on his tail, and catch him at the lights on Bradbury Junction.
   
• PC one success vs. Ath’Zul zero successes, the PC has one success difference and one degree of victory: Ath’Zul tries to shake the PCs, his hover bike, weaving in and out of traffic, but the PCs force him off the road, where his bike loses repulsor lift and halts.
   
• PC two successes vs. Ath’Zul zero successes, the PC has two successes difference two degrees of victory : Ath’Zul tries to shake the PCs, his hover bike, weaving in and out of traffic, but he crashes into a parked car, spilling Ath’Zul and the stolen artefact over the road.

Edited August 17 by mfbrandi
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[AndreasDavour]

I've read/played it the same that it's a "summed result is: +1 to the players" which mean they win the prize.

[Ian Cooper]

On 8/16/2023 at 7:54 PM, Stan Shinn said:

In simple contests, you resolve ties by the higher roll getting the victory. Does this also apply to Group Contests and rolls in Sequences?

Here's the QuestWorlds SRD rule for Contests and ties:

"2.3.7 Outcome ... If you both have the same number successes, including if you both have zero successes, then the higher roll has a victory and gains the prize. If your rolls tie, then there is a standoff with neither side able to take control of the prize."

A contest follows the rule for a contest. A contest within a group contest follows the rules for a contest. A contest sequence, whether a round or exchange (for wagered) is a contest.

The rules for contests apply regardless of framing.

All that changes is how we interpret the outcome.

Edited September 10 by Ian Cooper

[Ian Cooper]

There is a separate conversation around group contests, but for clarity:

• Player A gets success, opposition does not. Add one success to PCs total
• Player B gets failure, opposition succeeds. Add one success to Opposition total
• Player C gets success, opposition succeeds, but higher roll to the player. No advantage to either side. PC individual outcome to defeat opponent.

Despite the player getting a success over their opponent, they do not contribute meaningfully to the outcome