Sorcery and Allied Spirits

[Shiningbrow]

2 hours ago, Jens said:

There’s no RQ precedent I can think of for reducing the amount of time it takes to cast a spell

Actually, there is. Mongoose's Glorantha: The Second Age - Magic of Glorantha. p 48 - "Casting Time: The spell takes the indicated number of Combat Actions to cast. God Learner Sorcery is almost always faster than other types of magic – a major advantage in spellcasting combat."

 

Also, there is the whole idea that different societies may have access to different Techniques (see the Mostali, for example). And I'd suggest it's reasonable that the God Learners had something like it. (certainly, any GM could make such a call at their table).

[davecake]

17 hours ago, Godlearner said:

... and how many rounds would it take him to cast it?

In one round, using Combine he can cast any number of spirit magic spells (up to the limits of Free INT) at Dex SR plus the magic points in the most expensive spell. And so if he is casting only 1 point attack spells, he can cast as many as he likes as long as he doesn't run out of magic points - it doesn't actually seem to be limited by Free INT in the example in the rules. This could reasonably be considered a possible mistake, I will suggest it in the Lunar Way error thread. 

But if it is limited by needing Free INT, he can cast <Free INT> 1 pt spells at Dex SR. The only negative is that if his Combine skill is low compared to his casting chance and other Lunar Magic skills, it might reduce his casting chance. Of course, in practice he might want to cast more powerful magic (either because he knows more powerful spells, or using Amplify), boost its duration or range, boost to get through defences, etc. Of course he pays the entire magic point cost, which can be very hefty. But it can all happen very fast. And then do it again next round. 

Yes, Combine is really good. Lunar magic, especially Combne and Amplify, is very good, and even using Amplify to bump up spells to very high power is still faster than sorcery - sorcery has a minimum of 1 full round to cast, while Lunar Magic defaults to being as fast or faster than normal spirit magic. 

And while we are at it, of course if they are using Lunar Magic they have access to other magic, like Cyclic INT, and Glowspot. So his Free INT might be in the high twenties. 

[davecake]

3 hours ago, Shiningbrow said:

BTW, IMG, LM's (and IO's and Buserians) are likely to have found a Rune Spell that doubles INT, just as Charisma and Bear's Strength double their respective stats. It's a bit of a no-brainer... (bwahahahahaaaa.... yeah, taking the pun!)

well, I wouldn't put one in the game, and no else seems to have. Usually INT is substantially harder to increase than other stats.

Perhaps one used to exist, and it all got wiped out with the downfall of the God Learners or something. And if someone brings it back the Gift Carriers will turn up. 

That said, a Red Goddess initiate does have access to a spell that  multiplies INT by 1.5, within some conditions (the Moon has to be full - but they also have access to Glowspot in a pinch). Which is destabilising enough. 

[davecake]

13 hours ago, Jens said:

Jeff has been clear- no new rules, just new spells.

That is not actually true, in fact we know it isn't true. We know Malkioni get some additional benefits from following caste rules, and those for the Zzaburi will be at relevant to magical casting. But we have not yet been told what those benefits will be (or if they are consistent between sects, etc). There are also rules that are currently unofficially mentioned, but not yet in a product, that are significant to the way sorcery works - the rules for magical Books, for example, are just drafts right now.

Sorcery will change significantly when work on the Malkioni is published. 

And FWIW while I think its unlikely that many sorcerers other than LM and IO will get access to allied spirits from the same cult that teaches them sorcery, but we need rules for them definitely (not just because of those two, but also troll Arkati sorcerers, Aeolian henotheists, etc). And I don't think they should give any extra bonuses other than those they already do, which I already think are significant. And we really do need at least worked examples of sorcerers with bound spirits, because they are so obviously a very useful thing that I assume every sensible sorcerer will be interested in acquiring one (or more). 

[Shiningbrow]

26 minutes ago, davecake said:

well, I wouldn't put one in the game, and no else seems to have. Usually INT is substantially harder to increase than other stats.

Perhaps one used to exist, and it all got wiped out with the downfall of the God Learners or something. And if someone brings it back the Gift Carriers will turn up. 

That said, a Red Goddess initiate does have access to a spell that  multiplies INT by 1.5, within some conditions (the Moon has to be full - but they also have access to Glowspot in a pinch). Which is destabilising enough. 

Would you suggest that an LM or IO Heroquest couldn't bring such a spell into existence?

[davecake]

6 hours ago, metcalph said:

The real limit in casting massive sorcery spells is not Free INT but availability of magic points. 

In practice, it seems that the practical limit is availability of magic points in the short term, but Free INT is the practical upper limit. It is not that hard to hit the point where you have enough stored magic points to cast the most powerful spell your Free INT allows, and if it is of large enough Duration you then just go through the cycle again. 

Though it gets very experience to cast spells using Runes and Techniques you haven't mastered. I doubt even the most over the top (eg most published RQ3 sorcerers) would ever feel they had enough magic points in RQG. 

7 hours ago, metcalph said:

1) magic point enchantments don't regenerate on their own.  There is a dwarven magic (Stabilize Magic Point Matrix CoR: Earth Goddesses p108) that does provide regeneration.  That suggests the technique isn't available to others.

Yes, and I agree that it's not really available to non-Mostali (and for the Mostali, it costs POW). 

7 hours ago, metcalph said:

2)  Bound Spirits.  Up to three bound spirits may be available, assuming an average POW of 3D6+6, giving the sorcerer an extra ~50 mp.  10d6+6 POW spirits are available but I doubt that they are commonly bound.  Stylistically I don't think Malkioni magicians uses bound spirits for magic point storage and use their bindings to store elementals and summonables.

Stylistically, I think feel they very much do, I think binding hostile spirits gives quite the 'spirit world is ours to exploit' fee. It gives the additional bonus of allowing them to cast Spirit Magic that it knows. But probably most of them are just sticking animal spirits in there, at least initially until they can summon up something cooler. Most decently powerful 'summonables' tend to know a lot of spirit magic (eg 'Demons' on average know 3D6 points), making them of double use - they give a lot of useful magic while in their binding object, and they can be released to attack in extremis (or more often if you can cast/maintain a Dominate). But such things are painful to deal with if you don't know its True Name. There may be 'named' elementals with INT, CHA and magic too, but they are probably on the larger side. 

I think binding animal spirits are a starting technique because Dominate (animal) and Dominate (spirit) are likely the same spell, just different targets - and so you can bind an animal, sacrifice it, and then command its spirit into a binding object, rather than have to go through the complexities of summoning it, and keeping it from attacking you while you Dominate it. 

A specific bestiary of summonables and set of examples of the sort of things sorcerers tend to keep bound would be really valuable. 

7 hours ago, metcalph said:

3)  Benison spell (Red Book of Magic p16).  This looks quite useful with an mp per meele round being regained on half moon days or 90 mp before the spell expires.   The only problem is that we don't know who teaches it.  It's not in the Lunar Way.  I suspect that it might be a spirit in the forthcoming Horned God book but who that might be (Moonbroth?) is unknown.

It is taught by the Twin Stars (ToTRM #16). So mostly Sable or other Lunar shamans. I doubt accessible to many non-Lunar sorcerers. Yet another win for Irripi Ontor and Jakaleel. 

 

7 hours ago, metcalph said:

4)  Magic tithing.  In Malkioni lands, the wizards tax the temples so the average wizard has access to up to 100 mp per worship ceremony.  I don't think they cast it as received but store it in magical banks or wells so they can cast their really big spells when needed. 

Or it may be controlled by the wyter, with the worship ceremony donating to the wyter and the local sorcerer 'priest' about redirect it later, if not using them to fuel wyter abilities (noting that sorcerous wyters may sometimes be quite different to those in other societies, such as artificial psychic constructs).

7 hours ago, metcalph said:

5) Tapping.  Steal Breath is a great way to top up magic points.  The only downside is environmental damage.

Well, that and the condemnation if it is against the local version of Malkions Law, and the enmity of the local air spirits. But the former may not apply, and the latter is solved by more Steal Breath, Dominate Spirit, and related methods. Improves the weather, too. 

[davecake]

 

57 minutes ago, Shiningbrow said:

Would you suggest that an LM or IO Heroquest couldn't bring such a spell into existence?

I would. If the Red Goddess is only able to multiply INT by 1.5, and that only at the cost of cyclic reductions in INT, and only some of the time, why would Irripi Ontor be able to cast a much more powerful effect than the Goddess can? 

The obscure RQ3 rune spell Sapience increased INT by 1 point for the duration, and is 1 use. So I'd suggest from that that a Rune spell that increases INT by 1 point per point is about the most practical possible, and that I'm not sure about that. 

We have precedent for how much it probably costs. You'd like it to be much better, but seem to assume that if you want a much better spell, then it will inevitably happen. I think there is no reason to expect that you can do better than INT enhancing Rune spells that already exist. 

And that is a best case. Hero cults that create new hero quest powers of such a core universally applicable power like that are pretty rare and difficult. 

[PhilHibbs]

7 hours ago, Jens said:

There’s no RQ precedent I can think of for reducing the amount of time it takes to cast a spell- even Multispell and Combine just let you cast more in the same time.

4 hours ago, Shiningbrow said:

Actually, there is. Mongoose's Glorantha: The Second Age - Magic of Glorantha. p 48 - "Casting Time: The spell takes the indicated number of Combat Actions to cast. God Learner Sorcery is almost always faster than other types of magic – a major advantage in spellcasting combat."

 Also Sandy Petersen's sorcery rules had Haste, but those were never officially published.

[Shiningbrow]

42 minutes ago, PhilHibbs said:

 Also Sandy Petersen's sorcery rules had Haste, but those were never officially published.

Yeah, I know about that. But, since it wasn't official, I didn't mention it.

[Shiningbrow]

2 hours ago, davecake said:

I would. If the Red Goddess is only able to multiply INT by 1.5, and that only at the cost of cyclic reductions in INT, and only some of the time, why would Irripi Ontor be able to cast a much more powerful effect than the Goddess can? 

Because that's not her speciality?*

Whereas for LM and his mistress Elasa, INT is their think (along with knowledge & inspiration). What is 'inspiration' if not the increased intelligence to make connections between things that you hadn't realised before?

 

(*I don't have Lunar Way yet, but I presume she also doesn't give spells like Sword Trance, Lightning, Thunderbolt, Bear's Strength, Darksee, Sunspear and so so many other spells that other more specialised deities give)

Edited Wednesday at 02:38 PM by Shiningbrow

[Ormi Phengaria]

At first glance I have no problems with the idea of an allied spirit using sorcery. Let's see.

• They will need to have sorcerous knowledge of the runes and the techniques by which to manipulate them, along with the spells themselves. With very few exceptions (probably knowledge spirits and the ghosts of sorcerers), this means they would be limited to what the rune master already knows. Spirits may be able to learn or improve spells, but I strongly doubt they can master new runes or techniques.
• The majority of sorcery in western and central Genertela is a "literate discipline", but that does not mean sorcerers actively need to be reading to cast spells, or even to be able to. A blinded sorcerer still knows the spells they've memorized. The meaning of the restriction is rather because magical writings are the means of achieving "intellectual union" with a scriptural lineage that provides the sorcerer with greater power and knowledge, without requiring direct experience.
• A disembodied spirit doesn't seem like it should be able to forget and recall spells. They don't have the same kind of consciousness as an embodied being. I also can't imagine an allied spirit being able to hold a different set of memorized spells unless they were already a part of the spirit. Embodied spirits with independent magical knowledge would have no troubles.
• Free INT should work the same. However, sorcery spells which were already a part of the spirit can probably be exempted.
• I can't see why spirits wouldn't be able to meditate and use ritual practices, embodied or disembodied, but this obviously would look different than it does for living mortals. Allied spirits probably cannot do it independently.
• Allied spirits and rune master can still use one another's MP for sorcery.

There are some notable advantages here. The sorcerer can direct its allied spirit to cast spells and be able to concentrate on something else. The allied spirit might have more Free INT. The expanded MP resources allow for larger spells. A sorcerous allied spirit can potentially convey new sorceries, runes, and techniques without requiring study, which is pretty tremendous. That's faith in knowledge for you.

However, all of this still makes me think that a dedicated sorcerer is still going to have the advantage in sorcery, and it's likely not even close. These advantages are primarily of interest and utility to the dabbler-sorcerer. A zzaburi doesn't need an allied spirit for MP (they can store MP directly, as well as use the chain of veneration), action economy (they have other castes for that), or to provide additional spells or mastery of runes or techniques (they already dedicate themselves to this and don't have much use for dabbling outside of their specialties).

That all checks out to me. The rune cults providing both sorcery and allied spirits are always going to focus on the deity, with sorcery being supplemental to that.

Tangentially, one could make the (Brithini-tinged) argument that any sorcery used by spirits is not "actually" sorcery. Sorcery is the exercise of willpower by the ego over the world by means of knowledge, and while spirits may seem like they have these attributes, that's not quite the case. They, even the dead, lack the faculty of ego. The Brithini say this is due to spirits being merely psychic imprints left or made in the world by people. The knowledge they seem to possess is not separate from their existence or consciousness; they are that knowledge, among other things. In fact, that seems to be exactly what a knowledge spirit is.

I think we trace the mysteries of Lhankor Mhy in considering all of this.

[davecake]

23 hours ago, Shiningbrow said:

Whereas for LM and his mistress Elasa, INT is their think (along with knowledge & inspiration). What is 'inspiration' if not the increased intelligence to make connections between things that you hadn't realised before?

Learning and knowledge are their thing. If they have spent entire millennia stubbornly NOT providing this magic you are convinced they are so naturally expert at, why would that be? 

[davecake]

23 hours ago, Shiningbrow said:

(*I don't have Lunar Way yet, but I presume she also doesn't give spells like Sword Trance, Lightning, Thunderbolt, Bear's Strength, Darksee, Sunspear and so so many other spells that other more specialised deities give)

Why would she? Half those spells she already has subservient or closely allied gods that provide something very similar. Her Cyclical Strength spell can already multiple strength by 1.5, and doesn't last 15 minutes. Some of the others are specifically the powers of her greatest enemy. And why would she need Darksee when she provides her own light. 

[PhilHibbs]

1 hour ago, davecake said:

Learning and knowledge are their thing. If they have spent entire millennia stubbornly NOT providing this magic you are convinced they are so naturally expert at, why would that be? 

Do you apply that to all divine abilities that could be revealed through heroquests? Gods can't just decide to give stuff to their worshippers. The worshipper needs to know the right rituals to access powers.

[davecake]

19 hours ago, Ormi Phengaria said:

The majority of sorcery in western and central Genertela is a "literate discipline", but that does not mean sorcerers actively need to be reading to cast spells, or even to be able to

That is splitting the hair very fine indeed. 

Quote

a sorcerer cannot know a spell better than their Read/Write skill.

so sure, it is possible that a sorcerer might have learnt to Read and Write, and then have been blinded but still retain the ability to visualise writing, I guess? But it isn't really 

19 hours ago, Ormi Phengaria said:

The meaning of the restriction is rather because magical writings are the means of achieving "intellectual union" with a scriptural lineage that provides the sorcerer with greater power and knowledge, without requiring direct experience.

No, spells are visual, literary things that require intimate knowledge of the language to understand. The rule about literacy applies to spells not Mastery etc. Consider cabbalism as an example of how this works. 

19 hours ago, Ormi Phengaria said:

Embodied spirits with independent magical knowledge would have no troubles.

I don't think they necessarily have to be embodied to cast sorcery, but usually have to have been in order to learn it - but I also think it is very rare apart from spirits that are deeply associated with a sorcerous tradition. By far the most common case of spirits that have sorcerous ability are going to be ghosts/spirits of the dead of those who were sorcerers in life.

But older editions of the game, or other games (HeroQuest) had various examples of spirits that were capable of sorcery. While I don't want to wholesale reinvent the madness that was RQ3 familiars, I think it is possible that dedicated sorcery traditions may have found some way of creating or finding spirits with spell knowledge. But that will be weird advanced sorcery - not the sort of thing that fundamentally mostly theist cults will be giving out as theist allied spirits. 

 

20 hours ago, Ormi Phengaria said:

Allied spirits and rune master can still use one another's MP for sorcery.

And sorcerers can use the MP of bound spirits. They can use it for any purpose they like, not just sorcery. 

[davecake]

20 hours ago, Ormi Phengaria said:

The expanded MP resources allow for larger spells. A sorcerous allied spirit can potentially convey new sorceries, runes, and techniques without requiring study, which is pretty tremendous.

I read this as 'a sorcerous allied spirit can potentially convey great advantages to sorcerers if we make up entirely new rules to give them great advantages, in addition to the quite reasonable advantages they already have (such as MPs and using spirit magic without losing Free INT'. Well, sure. But why would we do that?

[davecake]

20 hours ago, Ormi Phengaria said:

Tangentially, one could make the (Brithini-tinged) argument that any sorcery used by spirits is not "actually" sorcery. Sorcery is the exercise of willpower by the ego over the world by means of knowledge, and while spirits may seem like they have these attributes, that's not quite the case.

OK, then the most logical consequence of that argument would be that sorcery isn't usable by allied spirits. Some unusual spirits may have their powers defined similarly rules wise, but it's not sorcery - and as allied spirits already have their abilities and nature defined, they don't include that. 

[davecake]

22 minutes ago, PhilHibbs said:

Do you apply that to all divine abilities that could be revealed through heroquests?

Not 100%, but if the argument is 'potentially a great hero could learn the ability', then let's leave it until we have hero quest rules. Heroes that don't just gain great powers, but create powerful new rune spells greater than any of their kind previously known and pass it to their whole cult - yeah, is there a superhero around who might be about to do that? Then let's not worry about it. 

[Ormi Phengaria]

1 hour ago, davecake said:

No, spells are visual, literary things that require intimate knowledge of the language to understand. The rule about literacy applies to spells not Mastery etc. Consider cabbalism as an example of how this works. 

There are sorceries without a Read/Write requirement. They usually exist independently of the Malkioni/Lhankor Mhy cult ecology, but they exist. They would replace Read/Write with another skill. And at least one spell can even be used without requiring mastery of runes or techniques. There is a preponderance of evidence that the specific relationship of literacy and sorcery is not what you suggest.

And there is certainly no requirement for vision: "The caster must be able to physically or magically per-
ceive—or otherwise know—the precise location of a target."

More to the point, all in all, it is hard for me to accept that the awakened spirit of a book of sorcery would be unable to know itself.

1 hour ago, davecake said:

I read this as 'a sorcerous allied spirit can potentially convey great advantages to sorcerers if we make up entirely new rules to give them great advantages, in addition to the quite reasonable advantages they already have (such as MPs and using spirit magic without losing Free INT'. Well, sure. But why would we do that?

I don't see any new rules in what I wrote at all, besides the small extension of a spirit not losing free INT for the sorceries it may know-- which you could arguably just represent as a smaller INT stat, and is up to GM fiat regardless. I wouldn't imagine them as giant repositories of spells in any case, but only the spells closely associated with them enough to be a part of their spiritual existence, which would probably just be a single spell most of the time.

1 hour ago, davecake said:

OK, then the most logical consequence of that argument would be that sorcery isn't usable by allied spirits. Some unusual spirits may have their powers defined similarly rules wise, but it's not sorcery - and as allied spirits already have their abilities and nature defined, they don't include that. 

Sure. Logical. However, I am not Brithini, and the distinction is unimportant to me.

[Shiningbrow]

13 hours ago, davecake said:

Not 100%, but if the argument is 'potentially a great hero could learn the ability', then let's leave it until we have hero quest rules. Heroes that don't just gain great powers, but create powerful new rune spells greater than any of their kind previously known and pass it to their whole cult - yeah, is there a superhero around who might be about to do that? Then let's not worry about it. 

You seem to be arguing that only those spells (and skills and other things) written within the official RQ:G texts exist, and thus, if it's not written, it doesn't and cannot exist.

I, OTOH, take what's written as a large subset and the overall generally acknowledged and know set of what's available.

We do need to remember that Rune Spells need to be learned - and taught. If someone doesn't know something (e.g., the priest, sorcerer or even shaman to an extent), then it cannot be taught. In the case of a Rune Spell, I consider that to be the Priest (or GT or RL) needs to know the relevant Heroquest to guide the Initiate on the path to that HQ to acquire the spell.

This also means that some spells can be known by a very select few, and may very well be an incredibly well-kept secret. We already have examples of those in the rules.

So, the officially written stuff is never going to have all spells that have been found and taught. Some have never been found; some have been around for thousands of years in the hands of a select few; and some have been found, used, and forgotten.

[Shiningbrow]

15 hours ago, davecake said:

Why would she? Half those spells she already has subservient or closely allied gods that provide something very similar. Her Cyclical Strength spell can already multiple strength by 1.5, and doesn't last 15 minutes. Some of the others are specifically the powers of her greatest enemy. And why would she need Darksee when she provides her own light. 

You seemed to be arguing one thing, and then now you're saying why that thing isn't so.... so, confusing.

[davecake]

11 hours ago, Ormi Phengaria said:

There are sorceries without a Read/Write requirement.

Not in RQG canon that I am aware of. Would you care to name one? We can assume all those mentioned in the RQG books follow the RQG rules, are you thinking of something else? Or are you just theorising that they should exist?

11 hours ago, Ormi Phengaria said:

They usually exist independently of the Malkioni/Lhankor Mhy cult ecology, but they exist.

There are Eastern sorcery traditions in both Kralorela and the East Isles, there is the nearly extinct EWF sorcery tradition, but all of those require literacy (and probably actually share a lot of deep Godtime roots with Western sorcery that show up in their myths, the same way the Western roots of Lhankor Mhy sorcery does). 

Mostali Maker magic is an essentially a very different extended and unusual form of sorcery - as noted in the cult description many sorcerers do not consider it to be sorcery, and there are a few deeper mysteries there with aspects that go deeper than sorcery. But I personally also think it is essentially literate and requires R/W Mostali, though many Mostali magical documents look more like collections of diagrams rather than long texts. 

11 hours ago, Ormi Phengaria said:

They would replace Read/Write with another skill.

All the variant sorcery traditions of which I am aware replace Read/Write with Read/Write in a different script. That includes the troll Arkati who rely on Darktongue, so more like braille than human script, but it's still Read/Write. 

There may be otherworld beings with sorcerous powers, but that is a different kind of thing - whether or not they exist, it doesn't mean mortals humans can do so, and it may depend heavily on the origin of those beings.

Older games (and some sources written at the time) talked about 'Essences', but the cosmology of the game has changed significantly, and the idea of fundamental differences in magic due to alignment with one of three separate Otherworlds is no longer considered true (ie we no longer distinguish between gods and big spirits, or spirits and cult spirits, in any fundamental way, no longer talk about three entirely separate otherworlds inherently alien to other forms of magic). And I, and I think the majority of others, and the RQG authors, are pretty happy to see the Three Worlds cosmology gone. So I think we can ignore quite a few things from some older, non-RQ, sources that have sorcerous powers as being something that would still be the same in current canon. 

If this is a YGWV thing, and you have no specific examples from published work but just think it should be so, sure, but that's a quite different discussion.

11 hours ago, Ormi Phengaria said:

There is a preponderance of evidence that the specific relationship of literacy and sorcery is not what you suggest.

Can you point to it? Because I am familiar with pretty much every public document written for Glorantha, and I don't see it at all. 

And especially, can you point to it in a published work? In current canon? 

(the last point matters - it is clear that some basic assumptions about sorcery have changed in RQG, and this may be one of them - for example RQ3 familiars no longer  exist, or are certainly no longer either common or canon or a central part of becoming an adept, so their existence in previous editions of the game would be explained differently if published now)

Abstract reasoning about ambiguous interpretations is not evidence - please, some concrete examples, so we can at least know what you are talking about (and where it stands in relation to cannon, etc) 

12 hours ago, Ormi Phengaria said:

And there is certainly no requirement for vision: "The caster must be able to physically or magically per-
ceive—or otherwise know—the precise location of a target."

That is to target a spell, not learn and cast one. These are very different things.
That sentence is just (roughly) saying that just because your magical artillery spell can fire 20km, you still need to know where the target is somehow (though not necessarily to be able to see them, you might just find the exact coordinates by other means). It's got nothing to do with how you cast the spell at all. 

[davecake]

 

12 hours ago, Ormi Phengaria said:

it is hard for me to accept that the awakened spirit of a book of sorcery would be unable to know itself.

 

Sure, it's possible that such a thing exists, and that that is true - and that's what I meant by 'there may be otherworld spirits who cast sorcery, and it may depend heavily on the origins of such things'. That would be a very unusual, very specific, currently largely theoretical example, though. Manufactured things generally do not naturally have spirits at all (though spirits bound to an object can be created by various means, including sorcerous ones), and I'm not aware of any awakening of inanimate manufactured goods magic. So 'if this theoretical thing exists, I intuitively feel that it would have these properties'. That is not a very strong argument. 

Do we have any example of such spirits of books? There are lots of mentions of mighty magical grimoires in the lore - but they all seem to be either conventional books, just about sorcery, or more like conventional magic items, including sometimes spirits bound into them (a spirit IN a book is not at all the same as a spirit OF a book). Even the Abiding Book does not seem to have a spirit, though there is obviously the manifesting spirit that commands it must be written - and so is obviously separate, and precedes, the Abiding Book itself*. And as we aren't even sure a book spirit would have INT, are we sure that such a theoretical book spirit would know and understand its content, any more than a cow could read writing tattooed on it? And if we assume that such a spirit can Read itself, then that makes it irrelevant to the point about literacy being necessary.

Though the idea of books you can talk to about their contents is cool. I'm certainly prepared to accept the existence of specific spirits created by custom/very specific sorcery rituals to have sorcerous abilities - especially in hero quest circumstances. But it's hardly something we should be basing arguments for the normal operation of normal allied spirits on. Very specific spirits are known to be able to shape change people, cause disease, control packs of animals, alter local weather, bite people. That doesn't mean spirits, in generally, can do any of those things, or that we are able to change a spirit so it can. We shouldn't argue that that means those abilities are anything but rare, and very specific to the nature and origin of those rare spirits, or that allied spirits are likely to have them, or any other spirit that PCs are likely to control. Indeed, the abilities of allied spirits are usually pretty standard, and known not to include any such unusual abilities (it is rare to find an allied spirit that even has a different POW, or knows any Rune magic by default). 

(PS one excellent, and I think pretty much canon, way of making a spirit understand the contents of a book or scroll is for it to cast Devour Book.... though that might have other complications... but the existence of spirits that know sorcery isn't really the core issue here (I think people are mostly in agreement that the ghost of a deceased sorcerer can know sorcery))

 

 

* unless the original Church Witnesses/original God Learners made the whole thing up, or faked the whole show, of course. 

[davecake]

13 hours ago, Ormi Phengaria said:

I am not Brithini, and the distinction is unimportant to me.

You brought it up. I didn't introduce the argument, just refuted it. But you did say it was tangential, and you are now saying you think your own argument is unimportant, so happy to leave it there. 

[davecake]

1 hour ago, Shiningbrow said:

You seem to be arguing that only those spells (and skills and other things) written within the official RQ:G texts exist, and thus, if it's not written, it doesn't and cannot exist.

Not at all. I'm saying things that are better than anything existing in the game currently, and drastically change the balance of things, are unlikely to arise without an extraordinary change. From a game design perspective, the Mythology book sums it up well when it say you shouldn't create spells that are better than the existing best spell of the best god in that area - you should never create a Death spell better than Sever Spirit, or a better resurrection spell than Resurrection, or a spell to blast someone with Fire better than Sun Spear. And if Humakts version of Sever Spirit is the particularly the best, or CAs version of Resurrect is the best, yours should not even be as good as that.

So I don't think you should create Intelligence boosting magic that is better than the best Intelligence boosting Rune spell in the game either, more or less just because you think it would be cool if it existed. If you had a very big story about why it needed to happen in your Glorantha, including some sort of Intelligence focussed superhero or something, it could happen. But it would need a lot of justification. The Red Goddess spell is pretty extraordinary, better than what came before - but it is presented as extraordinary, and there is a lot of justification. It should be a very big deal, not just 'well, this will inevitably happen because people would want it to'. 

I also think that you can't work around that design guideline by simply saying you are just adding it to an existing deities abilities, and then redefining the deity subtly to justify it. That's even worse, it is literally just immediately saying that YGWV and you want to change the current game balance significantly. Sure, you can do that, but it doesn't change anything about anyone else Glorantha. It has even more need for extraordinary justification than a spell for a new or obscure deity, not less. 

1 hour ago, Shiningbrow said:

We do need to remember that Rune Spells need to be learned - and taught. If someone doesn't know something (e.g., the priest, sorcerer or even shaman to an extent), then it cannot be taught. In the case of a Rune Spell, I consider that to be the Priest (or GT or RL) needs to know the relevant Heroquest to guide the Initiate on the path to that HQ to acquire the spell.

If a powerful hero quester manages to achieve something on a hero quest, it does not follow that people they tell about it can automatically repeat it. Let's wait for hero quest rules, but gaining a cool hero quest power is different to automatically being able to share it with others. Literally many hero quest powers just seem to be being able to learn a well known Rune spell without becoming a member of a cult that already has it. 

1 hour ago, Shiningbrow said:

This also means that some spells can be known by a very select few, and may very well be an incredibly well-kept secret. We already have examples of those in the rules.

Absolutely. But that doesn't mean that we have reason to believe spells that basically break the spell design guidelines exist, and are just hoarded by a small secret group. There is not a cooler Sever Spirit out there, there is not a super Resurrect out there. There may be a particular hero quest ability that is even more powerful, but not just easily learnable rune spells.