Gloranthan Naming Conventions

[Jon Hunter]

After creating the Glorantha random name generator

http://www.backtobalazar.com/glorantha-name-generator/

I'm  now trying to populate it with Good useful data from a wide range of key Gloranthan Cultures.

Which will try to achieve the following things

• Create and document varied societies different approach to naming
• Create distinct feels for different cultures
• Be believable within a gaming setting
• Build on whats go on before
• Add something new and useful
• Fire players and ref imagination
• Isn't adverse to occasional and appropriate humor.

I will have lots of questions, there will be places where I fall over on inspiration and there will be places where people think they will extrapolate data differently than I would.

So I thought a thread where we could discuss and debate about Gloranthan Names could be worthwhile.

Cheers

Jon

[Jon Hunter]

First question from me;

What ideas do people have on how we can distinguish the 2nd name element of Pelorian, Carmanaina and Harra happen names from the ubiquitous Runequest Nickname?

[Joerg]

I think you will have to do separate lists for the different Pelorian populations. Non-Dara Happan Lodrili nobility (i.e. upstart Lunars) have the first part of the clan-name as a hyphenated suffix - Sor-eel.

Both Dara Happan and Carmanian high nobility go by their given name, a title, and an epithet. You are supposed to know which noble family they belong to. (Aronius Jaranthir suggests that Jaranthir is an eponym, too, only one without translation provided.)

Dara Happan naming conventions were discussed in a Lunar novel Greg read ages ago at a Convulsion I attended (94 or 98). A calling name, status (as a cardinal number), and IIRC another numeral. (The character in the novel was a female weeder, the lowest level of free Dara Happan nationality. IIRC a sixth.)

Darjiinians just have a given name, no clan epithet, if the few examples I can correctly identify show the greater picture.

Pelandans appear to make do with a single name, followed by their city (or the nearest city, which will probably add a (different?) suffix or prefix to the city name. Medium level Dara Happans also identify by their city.

The rest will be nicknames like Caesar (baldhead), Cicero (chick-pea) or Flaccus (lop-ear), Blaatand (Bluetooth), or sometimes "the elder" (Cato), "the smaller/bigger" (Ajax in the Ilias). Or possibly awful puns sold as clever kennings. Individuals will amass such nicknames or war-names. Sometimes the descriptor will be clear text, sometimes it will be faux Pelorian (Jaranthir).

Complications as with the Nac Mac Feegle of Diskworld shouldn't arise unless some namers get obnoxious ("Wee-but-not-as-wee-as-wee-wee-Donal-Donal"). Sometimes giving everybody the same name is a matter of family tradition ("Hermann Reuss", IIRC), which is as unhelpful to those around them. Even then, qualifiers like "the Sackville-Bagginses" may work around the issue.

It may be a mark of distinction if a third person reference without too much context can be made with just one name element. I guess every Tatius in the Empire will hasten to add an epithet.

 

[Jon Hunter]

1 hour ago, Joerg said:

I think you will have to do separate lists for the different Pelorian populations. Non-Dara Happan Lodrili nobility (i.e. upstart Lunars) have the first part of the clan-name as a hyphenated suffix - Sor-eel.

I noted that but it only works if your Greg of Jeff trying to pull out 4 or 5 individuals from a single family over a few hundred years.

If you want a system that works widely it falls down especially if your pre clan name elements are all 3 characters names.  Just not scalable so I filed that as a way a single clan does it.

I've opted for the system outlines in Imperial handbook 2 for Imperial Lunar names, though I may like a 'from Clan' or 'from place' style to complement the God based Style laid out there.

1 hour ago, Joerg said:

Both Dara Happan and Carmanian high nobility go by their given name, a title, and an epithet. You are supposed to know which noble family they belong to. (Aronius Jaranthir suggests that Jaranthir is an eponym, too, only one without translation provided.)

Dara Happan naming conventions were discussed in a Lunar novel Greg read ages ago at a Convulsion I attended (94 or 98). A calling name, status (as a cardinal number), and IIRC another numeral. (The character in the novel was a female weeder, the lowest level of free Dara Happan nationality. IIRC a sixth.)

Ok will look into that more, I do have a distinct lists of Dara Happen and Carmanian forenames so may be do able.

1 hour ago, Joerg said:

Darjiinians just have a given name, no clan epithet, if the few examples I can correctly identify show the greater picture.

Easy to do, but I have no distinct list of Darjiinians names as yet.

1 hour ago, Joerg said:

Pelandans appear to make do with a single name, followed by their city (or the nearest city, which will probably add a (different?) suffix or prefix to the city name. Medium level Dara Happans also identify by their city.

The rest will be nicknames like Caesar (baldhead), Cicero (chick-pea) or Flaccus (lop-ear), Blaatand (Bluetooth), or sometimes "the elder" (Cato), "the smaller/bigger" (Ajax in the Ilias). Or possibly awful puns sold as clever kennings. Individuals will amass such nicknames or war-names. Sometimes the descriptor will be clear text, sometimes it will be faux Pelorian (Jaranthir).

Pelandan names exists as a distinct list and currently have little in the way of second names/titles/epithet/family names. 

Mid for mid level and lower level Dara Happen names i think something that suggests 

• from <city/town/village>
• member of  <organisation/family>
• servant of <organisation/family>

This would be used less frequently with Pelandans, with some silly nicknames thrown in.

1 hour ago, Joerg said:

 

[Joerg]

8 hours ago, Jon Hunter said:

I noted that but it only works if your Greg of Jeff trying to pull out 4 or 5 individuals from a single family over a few hundred years.

 

8 hours ago, Jon Hunter said:

If you want a system that works widely it falls down especially if your pre clan name elements are all 3 characters names.  Just not scalable so I filed that as a way a single clan does it.

p.314 has a non-eel Pelorian noble with Ochlo-molari. While all the four official examples of the -eel family (Hon, Jar, Sor, Bor) have three letter personal designators, that's evidently not a necessity.

 

[Jon Hunter]

19 hours ago, Joerg said:

 

p.314 has a non-eel Pelorian noble with Ochlo-molari. While all the four official examples of the -eel family (Hon, Jar, Sor, Bor) have three letter personal designators, that's evidently not a necessity.

 

I had missed that, but still is very hard to scale up for the following reasons.

• It covers a very small percentage of Lunars in the top houses and clans, I dont think a random name generator can assume NPC's will be from those houses and clans.
• We don't have enough lunar clan/family names to create a list
• We don't have enough data to extrapolate a pattern or style

On the matter of the three letter personal designators I was joking more than anything else but Jareen - eel doesn't quite work the same. Let alone longer names.

[jajagappa]

On ‎2‎/‎5‎/‎2018 at 2:26 PM, Joerg said:

Both Dara Happan and Carmanian high nobility go by their given name, a title, and an epithet. You are supposed to know which noble family they belong to.

As with Ez-zaya Hon-eel Yu-Takenegi or Zayen Tatius Assiday-en. :-)  [Something Jeff and I played around with some time ago when working out the Lunar great houses.]

[Jon Hunter]

19 hours ago, jajagappa said:

As with Ez-zaya Hon-eel Yu-Takenegi or Zayen Tatius Assiday-en. :-)  [Something Jeff and I played around with some time ago when working out the Lunar great houses.]

You think its scaleable?

[jajagappa]

1 hour ago, Jon Hunter said:

You think its scaleable?

There's a number of prefixes that can work for nobles of the greater houses (e.g. Ez-zaya works out to "Divine Exalted", "Zayen" to merely "Exalted"; others might include: Agga- (Glory of), Dava- (Victory to), Suren- (Light of), Ven- (Dedicated to)).  Those can generally be extrapolated from names/words in GRoY.  For family/house names, I don't think there's any established pattern.  I think a suffix of -a or -en to a house name will give you "of" that family.  You could probably derive a whole array of Lodrili families/clans from their association to a "parent" noble house.  E.g. Assiday-arth might be "overseers [belonging to] the Assiday.  Other Lodrili family names might be derived from names in Entekosiad.  And there are probably various minor Yelmic or Lunar families/houses that could be found (despite the reign of Sheng, it's aftermath, and subsequent Dart Wars).  The Patromas of Pavis note may be one.  The Endelkars might be another.  But some you might just have to create (if you venture into the non-canonical sources you could derive more).

Whether you can build out a reasonable set of Personal Names and Family Names may be the biggest challenge.

[KeithN]

I'd assumed that the various Eel, Il, Ilart, Inning, Oor, Sor, ending to the imperial clan names are something to do with the clans relationship to the Red Emperor, which makes it either a small part of the names of the Lunar Empire (ie only to elite of the elite) or more significant if you believe, asI do, that all Lunar Illuminants are acutally just descendants of Takenegi. 

[Joerg]

There aren't that many attendants at the Dorkath rites (the only occasion that many commoner women might approach Takenegi).

Illumination is notorious for being a contagious meme, via riddles, so anything suggesting direct descent from the Emperor sounds really false.

The Pelorian clan names are derived from the name of the founding hero(ine), sometimes a bit obscurely so. King of Sartar gives Kana-Telsor's parent as Valar-Telsor. I don't quite see how Valare Addi contributed to that clan-name, if she did at all, since Valar- is the personal bit of that name, and Telsor would be the first component of the clan designation.

[Jon Hunter]

On 07/02/2018 at 10:47 PM, jajagappa said:

There's a number of prefixes that can work for nobles of the greater houses (e.g. Ez-zaya works out to "Divine Exalted", "Zayen" to merely "Exalted"; others might include: Agga- (Glory of), Dava- (Victory to), Suren- (Light of), Ven- (Dedicated to)). 

These are currently used in imperial Lunar names, source imperial, lunar handbook vol 2. Though pointed towards lunar Gods, aspects and Heros. I could use them pointed towards cities, houses, families , association and other Dara happen Instituations

On 07/02/2018 at 10:47 PM, jajagappa said:

Those can generally be extrapolated from names/words in GRoY.  For family/house names, I don't think there's any established pattern.  I think a suffix of -a or -en to a house name will give you "of" that family.  You could probably derive a whole array of Lodrili families/clans from their association to a "parent" noble house.  E.g. Assiday-arth might be "overseers [belonging to] the Assiday.  Other Lodrili family names might be derived from names in Entekosiad.  And there are probably various minor Yelmic or Lunar families/houses that could be found (despite the reign of Sheng, it's aftermath, and subsequent Dart Wars).  The Patromas of Pavis note may be one.  The Endelkars might be another.  But some you might just have to create (if you venture into the non-canonical sources you could derive more).

Lodrilli are most prone just to have one name of all the culture i've covered so far. Nicknames would be most common for titled names i think.

On 07/02/2018 at 10:47 PM, jajagappa said:

Whether you can build out a reasonable set of Personal Names and Family Names may be the biggest challenge.

I think i've got a workable set of personal names, just family names and titles that are looking difficult

[jajagappa]

17 minutes ago, Jon Hunter said:

Lodrilli are most prone just to have one name of all the culture i've covered so far. Nicknames would be most common for titled names i think.

For the Lodrili, yes.  For men, I think start with the Overseer and the 10 Workers from the Gods Wall with their roles, tools and trades.  And then common nicknames about physical features, Fire, and Earth/Mud.  But never a nickname with the terms "Gold", "Sky", "celestial", or anything else affiliated with Yelm or the Sky World!  That would be considered not only offensive to the DH overlords, but likely rebellious.

6. Mohenjar
God of Overseers. Mohenjar carries a ceremonial mattock and a small legged bucket. He knows how, and is not afraid to dirty himself.
7. Morkartos
The Foreman. He carries a long crossed staff, or “chief foreman’s” staff.
8. Perandos
The Digger (with Mattock.) He carries a mattock and brick.
9. Pererlotil
The Digger (with shovel.) He carries a shovel and bucket, and brick mold.
10. Navestos
The Harvester. He carries a sickle and basket.
11. Urder
The Worker. He carries a thresher (whip) and basket.
12. Morurder
The Boss. He carries a small baton of authority.
13. Alfostios
The Cooper. He carries a saw, with a barrel beside him.
14. Ostevius.
The Carpenter. He carries a hammer, with a box beside him.
15. Venurtera
The Potter. She carries a wheel, with a pot beside her.
16. Urdera
The Carrier. She carries two baskets.

17 minutes ago, Jon Hunter said:

These are currently used in imperial Lunar names, source imperial, lunar handbook vol 2. Though pointed towards lunar Gods, aspects and Heros. I could use them pointed towards cities, houses, families , association and other Dara happen Instituations

I'm sure these prefixes are equally applied to imperial names, cities, houses, etc.  And I wouldn't worry about ILH2 presentation since it's non-canonical.

Edited February 11, 2018 by jajagappa

[Jon Hunter]

On 2/11/2018 at 5:31 PM, jajagappa said:

For the Lodrili, yes.  For men, I think start with the Overseer and the 10 Workers from the Gods Wall with their roles, tools and trades.  And then common nicknames about physical features, Fire, and Earth/Mud.  But never a nickname with the terms "Gold", "Sky", "celestial", or anything else affiliated with Yelm or the Sky World!  That would be considered not only offensive to the DH overlords, but likely rebellious.

6. Mohenjar
God of Overseers. Mohenjar carries a ceremonial mattock and a small legged bucket. He knows how, and is not afraid to dirty himself.
7. Morkartos
The Foreman. He carries a long crossed staff, or “chief foreman’s” staff.
8. Perandos
The Digger (with Mattock.) He carries a mattock and brick.
9. Pererlotil
The Digger (with shovel.) He carries a shovel and bucket, and brick mold.
10. Navestos
The Harvester. He carries a sickle and basket.
11. Urder
The Worker. He carries a thresher (whip) and basket.
12. Morurder
The Boss. He carries a small baton of authority.
13. Alfostios
The Cooper. He carries a saw, with a barrel beside him.
14. Ostevius.
The Carpenter. He carries a hammer, with a box beside him.
15. Venurtera
The Potter. She carries a wheel, with a pot beside her.
16. Urdera
The Carrier. She carries two baskets.

Most of that works been done

• http://www.backtobalazar.com/lunar-names-part-1/

On 2/11/2018 at 5:31 PM, jajagappa said:

I'm sure these prefixes are equally applied to imperial names, cities, houses, etc.  And I wouldn't worry about ILH2 presentation since it's non-canonical.

If we do that, we loose a sense of distinction between the different Lunar naming conventions, it would be nice to have Pelorian, Dara Happen and Lodrilli working in subtley different ways.

[jajagappa]

8 hours ago, Jon Hunter said:

we loose a sense of distinction between the different Lunar naming conventions, it would be nice to have Pelorian, Dara Happen and Lodrilli working in subtley different ways.

Bear in mind that titles such as Agga- (Glory of), Dava- (Victory to), Suren- (Light of), Ven- (Dedicated to) would never be applied to Lodrili, only Yelmic and Lunar nobility.  But that's also why they might be applied to more than just an individual - the house, etc. is equally noble.  That pattern would probably not be repeated at the Lodrili level.  There I think villages would reflect the Earth deities the Lodrili married, etc.

[Joerg]

19 hours ago, jajagappa said:

Bear in mind that titles such as Agga- (Glory of), Dava- (Victory to), Suren- (Light of), Ven- (Dedicated to) would never be applied to Lodrili, only Yelmic and Lunar nobility.  But that's also why they might be applied to more than just an individual - the house, etc. is equally noble.  That pattern would probably not be repeated at the Lodrili level.  There I think villages would reflect the Earth deities the Lodrili married, etc.

I did take a double-take at Suren being unavailable to Lodrili. My first impression of Suren is Surenslib, a deity (or spirit) no Dara Happan noble would ever pollute himself with.

[jajagappa]

5 hours ago, Joerg said:

I did take a double-take at Suren being unavailable to Lodrili. My first impression of Suren is Surenslib, a deity (or spirit) no Dara Happan noble would ever pollute himself with

If you go by GRoY p.79 or FS p.51, you find her listed as SurEnslib, which may be of differing origin even if similar sound.  However, looking back, I think Suren- came from ILH2, so that one is likely suspect.