Passions in Battle?

[Willow]

Hey everyone-

I've been running the Great Pendragon Campaign through the Uther Period, and have been on hiatus and am getting ready to run the Anarchy period.

One thing I noticed is what seemed to become a dominant strategy in battle: invoke Passions early!  We've had knights that failed their roll, and got wounded and sent to the sidelines early, and a few that botched and spent the aftermath in deep melancholy, but for the most part, the knights have been able to get +10 or +20 to their primary weapon skill.  The first few battles I ran were pretty risky affairs, and the Battle of Terrabil was probably the most interesting, because of the special events and the nighttime ambush, but afterwards, the Battle of St. Albans was terribly dull: every player knight made their Passion rolls, at least one critted, and they went forth to pretty much succeed or crit every round.  Much glory was earned (upwards of 2000 for most of the knights), but very little real conflict- lucrative, but boring at the table.

I could not find any guidelines for Passions in Battle, other than "Inspiration lasts for the length of the task at hand, but never for more than a day."  Can an entire Battle be considered a task?  Do you limit a Passion roll to a single foe?

Thanks!

[Morien]

13 minutes ago, Willow said:

I could not find any guidelines for Passions in Battle, other than "Inspiration lasts for the length of the task at hand, but never for more than a day."  Can an entire Battle be considered a task?  Do you limit a Passion roll to a single foe?

Book of Battle explicitly limits it to a single Battle Round or the duration of a single Extended Melee, IIRC. Also, you cannot use any single passion more than once per battle, so you have to save those for when you really need them.

Also, some GMs (including me) can be rather stringent on when and what Passion can be triggered. For instance, I no longer allow Loyalty (Lord) / Homage to be used simply to do your duty on the battlefield, but requiring you to be rescuing the lord or some such.

In our first campaign, we played it like you seem to do and allowed the passion to last for the whole battle. End result was that every PK yelled 'For the Emperor' eh I mean 'For Arthur!' at the beginning of the battle, put the resulting inspiration to their main weapon skill, and merrily critted their way through most of the Battles during the Boy King Period. Made for a lot of Glory but somewhat boring battles.

[Atgxtg]

Yes, as Morien points out the Book of the Battle supplement tends to limit passions to one use, and lasting one Battle Round, with a handful of exceptions, like going for revenge after seeing your lord or a family member cut down. 

Another thing worth noting too is the for failure (and fumbles) are nasty and should make the PKs think twice before rolling a Passion. 

9 hours ago, Morien said:

In our first campaign, we played it like you seem to do and allowed the passion to last for the whole battle. End result was that every PK yelled 'For the Emperor' eh I mean 'For Arthur!' at the beginning of the battle, put the resulting inspiration to their main weapon skill, and merrily critted their way through most of the Battles during the Boy King Period. Made for a lot of Glory but somewhat boring battles.

Well, that's not  your fault. Up until BoB that was pretty much according to RAW. It's kinda a tough spot though because in the stories knights frequently get inspired at tournaments and it lasts fore the whole tourney, on the other hand a PK with Sword 42 doesn't even have to bother rolling the d20. 

[Morien]

2 hours ago, Atgxtg said:

Well, that's not  your fault. Up until BoB that was pretty much according to RAW. It's kinda a tough spot though because in the stories knights frequently get inspired at tournaments and it lasts fore the whole tourney, on the other hand a PK with Sword 42 doesn't even have to bother rolling the d20.  

I actually have less of a problem with Amor being used in jousting. First of all, jousting usually gives less Glory, and like you say, it is very genre-appropriate for the knight to be impassioned to impress his lady love.

I fully agree that with the harsh penalties for failing and especially fumbling the Passion, one shouldn't use it unless one has to. My players usually are very leery about rolling their Passions unless they are 14+. Those 2:1 odds of success seem to be the tipping point.

[Hzark10]

As Morien pointed out, but if you get a Passion to 16+, then you may have to invoke it. I always allow a PK to override their character, but at the cost of a point of that passion or trait immediately.

[Atgxtg]

41 minutes ago, Hzark10 said:

As Morien pointed out, but if you get a Passion to 16+, then you may have to invoke it. I always allow a PK to override their character, but at the cost of a point of that passion or trait immediately.

Oohh, that is interesting.

[Atgxtg]

4 hours ago, Morien said:

I actually have less of a problem with Amor being used in jousting. First of all, jousting usually gives less Glory, and like you say, it is very genre-appropriate for the knight to be impassioned to impress his lady love.

It's a question of "why does it last all day when battle doesn't". Especially when they might be times when a K might roll something other than Amor at a Joust. 

4 hours ago, Morien said:

I fully agree that with the harsh penalties for failing and especially fumbling the Passion, one shouldn't use it unless one has to. My players usually are very leery about rolling their Passions unless they are 14+. Those 2:1 odds of success seem to be the tipping point.

Yeah, and my PKs will often bring passion up to a high level, both for glory and the greater chance of success. Plus there is the "hidden" drawback that Hzark10 mentioned that passions especially high ones, can lead a character to do something he wouldn't want to. My Pks formed a knightly order to support each other and there have been times when one PKs determination to do something has led the rest of the PKs into a spot they didn't want to be in, or forced a single PK into doing something other than what he wanted to.

[Morien]

54 minutes ago, Atgxtg said:

It's a question of "why does it last all day when battle doesn't". Especially when they might be times when a K might roll something other than Amor at a Joust.  

Off the top of my head:

Because during the jousting, you are actually performing right in front of your lady love? You have time in between to rest your gaze on her lovely visage, contemplating your love for her, uninterrupted by the chaos of battle, and hence able to keep yourself 'in the moment'.

Whereas a Battle is chaotic, highly stressful and variable environment. Your Liege/whoever is likely not right there to witness everything, although your PK pals likely are. Enemies come and go. Your heart is pumping and it is actually heck of a lot more of actual work than jousting is. You can't maintain the same level of exertion.

If you compare the time you actually spend in a joust breaking lances in a day compared to how much you are swinging your sword in a Battle round, it is probably pretty comparable. Now if we are talking about Grand Melee, then it becomes a different ballgame again.

[Atgxtg]

2 minutes ago, Morien said:

Off the top of my head:

Because during the jousting, you are actually performing right in front of your lady love? You have time in between to rest your gaze on her lovely visage, contemplating your love for her, uninterrupted by the chaos of battle, and hence able to keep yourself 'in the moment'.

Whereas a Battle is chaotic, highly stressful and variable environment. Your Liege/whoever is likely not right there to witness everything, although your PK pals likely are.

Which is why if it is a Passion relatied to the other PK/pals we are back to sqaure one. Same thing with a Hate. If you Hate (saxons) and the Saxons are invading....

2 minutes ago, Morien said:

. Your heart is pumping and it is actually heck of a lot more of actual work than jousting is. You can't maintain the same level of exertion.

If you compare the time you actually spend in a joust breaking lances in a day compared to how much you are swinging your sword in a Battle round, it is probably pretty comparable.

Now that I can buy into., except for...

2 minutes ago, Morien said:

Now if we are talking about Grand Melee, then it becomes a different ballgame again.

...that, although a case could be made that with withheld blows, rest stops and "called wounds:" the exertion level is still lower. 

I considering testing out allow for multiple uses of a passion per battle ,but with a -5 per subsequent attempt. I think that would work out fine from a game mechanics view. Those who overdo it will eventually become disheartened or go mad.