Dawn Age Reverie

[scott-martin]

First, I see that three of the "rainbow" softcover first state Roots of Glorantha books went on eBay today (easy search) so let the competists shudder and the lustful sigh.

Here in the Castle Coast where we drill every day for the war with the blue man that never comes I rarely get even an hour away from the screen so a deep dive through the archaic materials has been elusive. I apologize to those who have been counting on me to assimilate and translate the waking dream history they reflect. It will happen in our lifetime, more or less. But today I got that hour and a few broad notes strike me:

A. The Lifebringers may not have been the only missionary civilization bringing a god from Central Genertela. By circa 100 a religion identifiable as "Yelm" is making inroads among the Pendalites, complete with chariots and archery. Imagine a dawn age where sons of the Sun are racing to spread their gospel ahead of the storm pantheon: the dark is over, make way for the day. Obviously given the dating this is not under the auspices of what becomes the Bright Empire under the god Nysalor, although "Yelm" may in fact come to other lands after the Sunstop. 

B. Seeing Damol in action gets me looking for "theyalan" storm people who evolved independently from the Heort / First Council and were only later attached to the god we call Orlanth. Wild brainless Damol is of course a son of "Aerlit" and so at least considered a brother to a historical Malkion who does not appear in these sources. If I were a gambler I'd bet a little money on aspects of Damol emerging in the "Malkion" legend that becomes useful at various times and places.

C. The unassimilated Pendalite remnant devolves in diaspora into the miserable lion people we now know. The historical experience of some if not all other "hsunchen" nations may be similar. Meanwhile Pendal's curse forbidding his children to ride horseback can be rehabilitated as a way around contradictory information about which castes can ride: for converts with Pendalite blood, it's not a good idea. (Greg's hatred of the horse is once again on display here.)

D. Triolini were also interbreeding with our nations in those days, creating hybrid peoples whose provenance is now lost to Time. This is likely where knowledge of the Sea enters land lore. The children of Waertag may or may not have succeeded in suppressing the results to pursue their putative monopoly. "Malkion," for example, is also a child of ocean on his mother's side.

E. Arkat's War undoubtedly altered the mythic landscape of the West as much as it did in Central Genertela. New gods rise and old gods are suppressed. This means that, for example, these archaic materials may either reflect their redaction of history (and so are completely anti-canonical in the Hero Wars era, a fiction promulgated by the losers of history and preserved by eccentric dilettantes) or the history that prevailed before the Autarchy and its own collapse. Given the wealth of detail here I tentatively favor the latter case where it doesn't explicitly contradict objective sources. 

F. Before the totemic nations, the Elves. There were also darkness people early on who may or may not have been what we would call trolls.

G. The archaic West became relatively rich with dead mythologies within a short period of time as nations were exterminated and their gods lost, converting their material apparatus into anonymous metal. Third Eye Blue may recall how some of this is done. The presence of Third Eye Blue in some phases of the Apple Lane experiment is interesting.

H. I'm sure I'm at best wrong everywhere but this stuff can only be made meaningful to those who need it. When the war with the blue man comes we need every weapon from history we can find.

[Sir_Godspeed]

When earlier we discussed the origins and nature of the horse in Glorantha, some posited that the Galanini pony emerged independently of the horses of the Pelorian basin - albeit through a similar mythical process.

From your notes, however, it is *possible* that some enterprising Hyalorings or Gamatae travelled over the Rockwood Mountains, spreading the horse and their god. But which god? Kargzant or Yelm? What about native(?) Ehilm? And how early could they have come? Something to ponder.

[Joerg]

6 hours ago, scott-martin said:

First, I see that three of the "rainbow" softcover first state Roots of Glorantha books went on eBay today (easy search) so let the competists shudder and the lustful sigh.

Here in the Castle Coast where we drill every day for the war with the blue man that never comes I rarely get even an hour away from the screen so a deep dive through the archaic materials has been elusive. I apologize to those who have been counting on me to assimilate and translate the waking dream history they reflect. It will happen in our lifetime, more or less. But today I got that hour and a few broad notes strike me:

A. The Lifebringers may not have been the only missionary civilization bringing a god from Central Genertela. By circa 100 a religion identifiable as "Yelm" is making inroads among the Pendalites, complete with chariots and archery. Imagine a dawn age where sons of the Sun are racing to spread their gospel ahead of the storm pantheon: the dark is over, make way for the day. Obviously given the dating this is not under the auspices of what becomes the Bright Empire under the god Nysalor, although "Yelm" may in fact come to other lands after the Sunstop. 

In Hrestol's Saga Hrestol refers to the sun as Yelm rather as Ehilm (the sun god of Safelster in general and specifically of Fornoar and Uton). (Later, Faralz refers to Polaris as Eurmal the Firebringer...)

There is a genealogic chart of deities somewhere out in the Internet that has Ehilm as a son or grandson of Yelm - no idea whose research produced this.

Anyway, Serpent King Sonmalos ruled frpm 89 to 104 and expanded the Malkioni/Serpent Kingdom into Nolos. By this time the remaining free Pendali had been largely pushed out of Seshnela and into Enerali lands. An alliance between the Pendali/Basmoli and the Enerali/Galanini, plus mercenaries from Serpent Brotherhood peoples would have been the normal opposition to the Seshnegi army of Malkioni-descended settlers (some Malkioni, some pagan) and assimilated Pendali from earlier conquests.

In Seshnela, there was a strong pagan faction, headed by Damol, a demigod who had been tamed over 50 years earlier. It is possible that the cult came from within Seshnela rather than from the outside. If Seshna had as many husbands as Ernalda, there would surely also have been a sun god among those.

Aignor the Trader, the pagan grandson of Hrestol who mated with Seshna to father Sonmalos, may have been another source of new gods to arrive in Seshneg, as was Boltror, Sonmalos' likewise serpent-legged son who chose ascension to Seshna rather than the throne, leaving that to his serpent-legged son Mimtak who had been born abroad, in the east.

6 hours ago, scott-martin said:

B. Seeing Damol in action gets me looking for "theyalan" storm people who evolved independently from the Heort / First Council and were only later attached to the god we call Orlanth. Wild brainless Damol is of course a son of "Aerlit" and so at least considered a brother to a historical Malkion who does not appear in these sources. If I were a gambler I'd bet a little money on aspects of Damol emerging in the "Malkion" legend that becomes useful at various times and places.

The invinvible sons of Damolsten come to mind...

Historical Malkion has been dead for a few generations before Damol gets tamed in the reign of Thamor, but both Ylream and Hrestol were his great-grandsons. Kinship with the house of Froalar is still fairly close, despite different mothers.

6 hours ago, scott-martin said:

C. The unassimilated Pendalite remnant devolves in diaspora into the miserable lion people we now know. The historical experience of some if not all other "hsunchen" nations may be similar.

I am not so sure about that. In my reading, the Basmoli that arrived in Seshnela sometime in the Darkness were regular Hykimi - wareran-shaped lion Hsunchen - who were led by the demigod Pendal, offspring of Ifftala (daughter of Seshna) and Basmol the lion god. To me, Pendal looks like a lion-blooded prince for the earth folk who had put up the cities now defended by the Basmoli and ruled by the sons and kinfolk of Pendal. This seems to be a relation similar to that of the non-sedentary Galanini with the sedentary Enerali and would explain the co-existence of shape-changing lion warriors and civilized pagan Pendali quite nicely.

There are only three beast folk

6 hours ago, scott-martin said:

Meanwhile Pendal's curse forbidding his children to ride horseback can be rehabilitated as a way around contradictory information about which castes can ride: for converts with Pendalite blood, it's not a good idea. (Greg's hatred of the horse is once again on display here.)

I guess it's the lion blood which scares any horses senseless. Chariots are of course an elegant way around this problem.

6 hours ago, scott-martin said:

D. Triolini were also interbreeding with our nations in those days, creating hybrid peoples whose provenance is now lost to Time.

They were interbreeding especially with the Waertagi, who in turn appear to have left some sailors' brats in the ports.

The Wartain triolini were Niiads (or now Naiads) when Aerlit encountered Warera, not yet Ludoch. (Diendimos was a brother in arms of Aerlit with a lot less social graces, I suppose, although is mating with Ludocha went better than that of Porjanks with Malaspa.) I assume that both Waertag's mother and Nelarinna, the wife of Ygg, were Naiads rather than air-breathing descendants of naiads and storm gods, too - especially since there aren't any Ludoch that far west of the Solkathi, but only Ouori and possibly orca-shaped Hrekeen (a race of Triolini closely allied with the Waertagi and wiped out at the Battle of Tanian's Victory).

6 hours ago, scott-martin said:

This is likely where knowledge of the Sea enters land lore. The children of Waertag may or may not have succeeded in suppressing the results to pursue their putative monopoly. "Malkion," for example, is also a child of ocean on his mother's side.

That dire lack of women should be a thing three generations or more in the past by now. There appears to be roughly a parity between male and female births in the generation of Hoalar and Froalar. Looking out for demigoddesses of land, sea or fertility may still have been a status thing among nobility, but I doubt that the more numerous Dronar caste had many of these opportunities after the second generation or so. There would still be a great number of Dronar bachelors, I suppose.

In Seshneg, I expect the majority of foreign wives to be temple priestesses of Seshna - the same class of priestesses that previously provided wives for the Pendali. Old Seshneg has rather few ports. Of the Pendali royal cities, only Orphalsket and Kaanilket are situated on estuaries (and how did Avalal do without a royal city?). Apart from west-facing Frawal, all the Malkioni ports face north towards the Ouori-inhabited Neliomi Sea.

 

6 hours ago, scott-martin said:

E. Arkat's War undoubtedly altered the mythic landscape of the West as much as it did in Central Genertela. New gods rise and old gods are suppressed. This means that, for example, these archaic materials may either reflect their redaction of history (and so are completely anti-canonical in the Hero Wars era, a fiction promulgated by the losers of history and preserved by eccentric dilettantes) or the history that prevailed before the Autarchy and its own collapse. Given the wealth of detail here I tentatively favor the latter case where it doesn't explicitly contradict objective sources. 

I wouldn't blame Arkat for this - rather the interaction of the Malkioni with Hrelar Amali, both constructive and destructive (the Vadeli-aided destruction), or previous uniformity imposed by the Second Council or the Bright Empire. Arkat's Heroquesting secret was anything but changing the actual myths, it was recognizing intersections and using these to switch paths. The fallout from the Battle of Zebrawood probably did more damage to the local ecology of unique deities than anything Arkat did.

 

6 hours ago, scott-martin said:

F. Before the totemic nations, the Elves. There were also darkness people early on who may or may not have been what we would call trolls.

Possibly closer to semi-physical Dehori or the darkness nymphs or hags, from what I remember about them.

6 hours ago, scott-martin said:

G. The archaic West became relatively rich with dead mythologies within a short period of time as nations were exterminated and their gods lost, converting their material apparatus into anonymous metal.

I haven't seen anything of Talor's exploits in Fronela other than the abstract in the Guide. Up there, the Enjoreli (civilized) bull people (kin to the Tawari hykimi the same way the Enerali were kin to the Galanini or the Pendali to the Basmoli) were the active Dawn culture next to Akem/Frontem.

I have no idea how these Malkioni coastal colonies came to pass. Frowal was founded on a land lease of one of the Pendali kingdoms, possibly similar to many an European coastal colony in Africa during the age of Imperialism - exchanging a significant but in the end hopelessly underpaid amount of "civilized" goods for a lease on some land. Neleoswal is claimed to have been founded on a former outlier of Brithos/Danmalastan, which might just be possible.

By the time of Bertalor, how anonymous were metal and crystal?

6 hours ago, scott-martin said:

Third Eye Blue may recall how some of this is done. The presence of Third Eye Blue in some phases of the Apple Lane experiment is interesting.

Given the role of the God of the Silver Feet in pre-Ban Fronela, an old relationship between Issaries and TEB appears quite likely. Gringle being an experienced heroquester might have given him the correct phrases with which to bind Piku and his family to his service.

6 hours ago, scott-martin said:

H. I'm sure I'm at best wrong everywhere but this stuff can only be made meaningful to those who need it. When the war with the blue man comes we need every weapon from history we can find.

And thus Hrestoli Adventurism raises its head again.

I fear that Damol and Aerlit are mostly lost now, as are all the goddesses of Brithos*.

[Joerg]

1 hour ago, Sir_Godspeed said:

When earlier we discussed the origins and nature of the horse in Glorantha, some posited that the Galanini pony emerged independently of the horses of the Pelorian basin - albeit through a similar mythical process.

From your notes, however, it is *possible* that some enterprising Hyalorings or Gamatae travelled over the Rockwood Mountains, spreading the horse and their god. But which god? Kargzant or Yelm? What about native(?) Ehilm? And how early could they have come? Something to ponder.

The westernmost of the Arcos horse lords I know about are Hestus and Hurfor, in eastern Pelanda. They don't appear to have penetrated into the bull belt between Loskalm and the Esel River valley south of lake Oronin (Bisosae), and I have no idea which name their sun horse would have had. To my knowlede the Char-un in Erigia are the farthest west any Arcos-dwelling horse folk ever came, apart from the Grazer leaper king who reached Mount Nida and similar heroic undertakings.