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Nevermet

Is GanEstoro also known as Vogestes the Spearman?

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This is my second, and arguably more esoteric, question about GanEstoro.

 

As I read through the Entekosiad this weekend, it occurred to me that while there was no stated link, GanEstoro and Vogestes were 2 entities with a shocking amount of overlap:

 

  1. Idovanus.  Ganesaturus, often accepted as another name for GanEstoro, is the brother to Idovanus in Carmanian legend (GTG, p. 725).  Vogestes is the brother of VioVanus, (p. 19) or Idoman in Pelandan legend.  These two names are associated with Idovanus.
  2. Black Mountain.  In the Legend of Idojartos (E p. 56), GanEstoro has a throne on a black mountain.  In the legend of the Third Error, Vogestes builds a temple at a black mountain (E p. 32)
  3. Death. GanEstoro is associated with death & destruction, and Vogestes is instrumental in the error of believing that death is good and more is better (E p. 32)
  4. Spears.  GanEstoro tries to kill Kenstrata with a "death dart" (E P. 62), and his primary worshipper Yargan wields the Blue Spear 45.  Vogestes, meanwhile, is the Spearman, and he teaches men to paint their despair into their javelins (E p. 20)
  5. Sacrifices.  GanEstoro demanded sacrifices (E p. 45), and Vogestes taught men to sacrifice (E p.20).

At the same time, this is not a slam dunk association:

  1. Against Text.  Valare, the author of the Entekosiad, loves telling us which names from ancient Pelandan myth equate to which gods in contemporary Carmania & Dara Happa.  Not mentioning such an equation seems deeply odd.
  2. Yargan.  The associations with Yargan are extremely tenuous.  Yargan is from the West (or at least beyond the Sweet Sea), and is associated with Water.  Vogestes has no associations with water, and he's indigenous to Pelanda.  Also, claiming GanEstoro is Yargan's father because Yargan worships GanEstoro is a weak argument.
  3. Deception.  Vogestes has no association with lies.
  4. Elemental Associations.  Vogestes is the "Fire Magician" (E 41), while GanEstoro is the "cold master" (E 56)
  5. EDIT: Different Sacrifices.  Forgot this one.  GanEstoro demands sacrifices for himself, and Vogestes claims sacrifices make the world.

 

 

So... what do people think?

Edited by Nevermet
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Ooooh, another alternative:

 

Vogestes is not GanEstoro, but the Red King.  In "Naveria and the Red King," the Balancer ritually kills the Red King in a giant clay pot shaped like a bull (E p. 76), and in "The Path of Addi," Natha sacrifices Vogestes "at Naveria's Court." (E. 83).

 

This has a lot of interesting consequences, but (1) I get nervous that Natha is an imposition by the Lunars, and (2) there's still a concern over both GanEstoro and Vogestes having black mountains, and (3) The Red King seems ignorant that anyone lives west of his city, and all of Pelanda is west of his city.

 

grr...

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Black Mountains suggest the Red King because the Red King is the descending, twilight sun, going behind the Western Mountains. Of course, GanEstoro is also associated with the Western Mountains, because he is the dark god of Carmania, and the Enkosiad is from Pelanda, to the east.

The Red King is ignorant of the West because the West is his own Death, his drowning in the broth of the sacrifice/Sweet Sea.

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The Spearman might not be associated with lies and deception, but he is involved in an "error", which might be thematically related, with a difference in the perspective on intent. Just a thought.

Edited by Sir_Godspeed
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8 hours ago, Sir_Godspeed said:

The Spearman might not be associated with lies and deception, but he is involved in an "error", which might be thematically related, with just a different in the perspective on intent. Just a thought.

 

And it's also good to remember "Error" in whose eyes.  The Entekosiad is blurry about it, but there are a lot of traditions layered on top of one another, and I suspect that some of them view Vogestes as more in error (Carmanian religion focused on dualism, the Jernotian Way and its rejection of human sacrifice), than others (Pelanda before the High Gods were established by Jernotia, the revival by Natha the Sacrificer during the Bleak Times, which I'm assuming is strongly related to Spolitism).

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47 minutes ago, Nevermet said:

 

And it's also good to remember "Error" in whose eyes.  The Entekosiad is blurry about it, but there are a lot of traditions layered on top of one another, and I suspect that some of them view Vogestes as more in error (Carmanian religion focused on dualism, the Jernotian Way and its rejection of human sacrifice), than others (Pelanda before the High Gods were established by Jernotia, the revival by Natha the Sacrificer during the Bleak Times, which I'm assuming is strongly related to Spolitism).

My memory maybe faulty, but isn't Natha, the name for the current incarnation of  Sedenya?

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33 minutes ago, albinoboo said:

My memory maybe faulty, but isn't Natha, the name for the current incarnation of  Sedenya?

Yup.  She's the current incarnation of the Lunar Goddess.  She was also a pre-existing goddess in both Pelanda & Dara Happa as an underworld goddess of balance and murder.  Here's the entry from the God's Wall in GtG:

 

Quote

Goddess of the Second Underworld, Keeper of the Second Hell. She holds a bell, and her priestess’ costume has many others. She is also called Avenger, Mistress of the Balance, Mother of Murder, and Assassin.


Natha is the Lunar goddess of Balance, the Avenging Destroyer, and one of the seven ancient Moon goddesses. She is the Goddess of the Empty Half. Natha has used her powers to bring life or death, light or darkness, good or evil, into the world as necessary to bring balance to the world.
 

Edited by Nevermet

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Another idea: just as Gerra's Pyramid descends, so does the Black Mountain of GanEstaro and Vogestes.  The Black Mountain, therefore, is not a mountain at all.  It is, in fact, Natha's Well, the great bog of sacrifice.

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