svensson

@Darius West I think you're misunderstanding the point of HQs.

At their very core, HQs make the impossible possible... though at great risk and cost. Consider the case of Hofstaring Treeleaper from the HQ game's Sartar Kingdom of Heroes book. It took very powerful magic to defeat him and imprison the soul of an Orlanthi Hero in a Hell not his own, knowing that you were going to have to contest with Orlanth's deep interest in a Hero of his cult. That deed alone might possibly have been an HQ on the part of the Lunars. OTOH, Hofstaring may well have been a 'Queen Leika level' personality... a successful HeroQuester, but one that isn't in the Argrath /Harrek /Jar-Eel tier. What we are sure of is that it took a successful HeroQuest to release his soul for durance vile. And while that quest happened under a different set of game mechanics, the event only happened a few years ago in the game timeline.

Then there is Sarostip Prince-Killer, who killed the Lunar puppet Prince of Sartar by moving an entire raiding band through the HeroPlane safely and arrive inside all the defenses that the Temertain [who may have been foolish, but was not stupid] and the Lunars could devise. He was then able to kill the Prince, his entire retinue and most of the Sartar Royal Guard [who are all werewolves].

I submit to you that these deeds would have been utterly impossible using the 'rules' and physics of the Mundane Plane. HeroQuesting, with its great risks, was the only way either deed could have been accomplished.

And all that is a whole lot more important than 'Grandfather Racoon's skin'.

For some reason there are people on this thread that seem to think that 'hunter god/ess' seems to mean 'no technology this side of Clan of the Cave Bear', and that simply isn't so.

Hunting and hunting gods use ALL technologies and applicable magics to bring the protein to the people. Sure, it's snares for small game and pit traps for migrating herds but ALL missile weapons... everything from javelins to crossbows [OK, so darts are under-kill and arbalests... well, that just depends on what you're hunting]... are happily used as another tool to get the job done.

Certainly, some societies are more primitive in their technologies than others. These societies will portray the hunter god as throwing spears and driving herds off cliffs. Other societies are far more sophisticated and will show the hunt as using beaters to drive prey into the kill zone for missile users.

1 hour ago, whitelaughter said:

The myth/practicality divide is a false dilemma, given the gods are supposed to be making their cults as strong as possible. So the 'crunch' factor should be considered ingame.

And Odayla wouldn't see any benefit. His Bear's Strength spell is increasing your Manipulation modifier, and your damage bonus: which applies to thrown weapons. It's simply more efficient to encourage cultists to use Bear's Strength for both hit and damage than to waste power developing/copying a new spell.

Mind you, he should be encouraging the use of the atlatl!

Most gods are not making their cults 'as strong as possible'.

For one thing, they can't. The Compromise limits them to acts performed in the Godtime. The portfolios they had when Yelm rose again in the sky is all they get.

The gods support their cults within the bounds of their portfolios and their reasons for existence. Some support the cults strongly, like Orlanth and Yelm. Some gods with minor portfolios do much MUCH less. The hunter gods are of the latter variety. Where Orlanth deals with every aspect of Heortling life [except those aspects directly attributed to Ernalda], the hunter gods deal with only one aspect of life. And that aspect is pretty small fry compared to, say, Humakt or even Daka Fal.

4 hours ago, davecake said:

I think most hunter cults do have missile magic. Because most hunter cults are variants on Foundchild, and so have Sureshot. 

I also find the stuff about Yinkin and Odayla being associated cults of Foundchild, but that get no magic only the ‘right to participate in the Great Hunt’ to be pretty odd. I think most initiates of Yinkin or Odayla who hunt (which isn’t necessary all of them) can be initiates of Foundchild if they wish. Some do, some don’t - and if course, some may choose to use Foundchild magic other than missile magic (such as Beastmaster to lure prey into position for driving them, Disruption for small game, Mobility for running down prey, etc). It wouldn’t be that unreasonable for Odayla initiates, given the number of  Odayla bow myths, to get Sureshot as an associate cult spell (Yinkin might be more of a Draw Beast type). 
 

 

 

Odayla doesn't offer any archery Rune spells.

I personally think it's because he offers Bear's Head /Skin /Claws. I don't recall seeing any of the Hunter cults that offer the Transform Animal spells and archer Runes spells together, and I think that was probably a deliberate game balance choice by the devs.

OTOH, I could be 180 degs off and it's just a typo 😁

I don't think Yinkin is a Draw Beast type. Yinkin is a cat and the act of hunting is as much a pleasure to him as eating he's caught. For that reason, I think his cult prefers the chase rather than mesmerizing their prey. But YGMV.

4 hours ago, Squaredeal Sten said:

A couple of decades ago i demonstrated my musket and bayonet to my mother in law.  Stabbed her ceiling when i went to right shoulder shift.  Thee bayonet went right in, despite being a piece of Indian-made repro which bends in the sheath when i sit down.   Since then I have been more careful indoors.

I've almost done that 😄

I'd be surprised if all of haven't, certainly most of us have.

2 hours ago, g33k said:

I would not apply a HP penalty, simply because -- once any injury is healed -- that person doesn't really have any fewer HP's.

It's not like a missing hand costs any total-HP's.
It's not like a 3-year-old (or congenital) missing hand is going to be relevant to the damage done to the bicep & humerus by an axe.

The RQ hit-location mechanism has no real way to distinguish sub-locations...
How far down that path do you want to go, really?  A ruined nailbed, that no longer grows a fingernail?  The last joint of a finger?  An entire finger?  Most (but not all) of a hand?  Etc...

Once these wounds are healed-up, I allege -- even if missing parts aren't restored -- the HP-totals are fully restored to normal pre-injury levels.

As @French Desperate WindChild said:  a manipulation-penalty would suffice, at his table (and mine).  YGMV.

At that point, if I were that player character I'd be investing a lot of 'filthy Lunars' into Protection and Shield spells.

[The OP said there were roleplaying reasons why the PC didn't want Regrow Limb]

8 hours ago, Scotty said:

Just for general reference:

https://robslink.com/SAS/democd79/body_part_weights.htm

Ah... forensic gaming, because no detail is too small for power gaming 🤣😁

[That's not a jab, @Scotty... Every one of us knows 'that guy']

53 minutes ago, Godlearner said:

Against a target like a deer with no armor, Multimissle will actually be better. 

Well, according to RQ Bestiary, black-tailed deer have 1 pt and elk have 2 pts of armor respectively. You make a good point, but Speedart seems to be more commonly available than Multimissile, so that was the example I chose.

Your point is well taken otherwise.

56 minutes ago, Bill the barbarian said:

If you are looking for damage, nothing beats a javelin 1D10 used by a strong guy or gal, plus 1d2 or 1d3 DB and then kick in a bit of magic and/or specials or crits... ouch!

Sure, but you have to be able to Track, Move Silently, and Hide at much higher levels to get into range for a javelin. Otherwise, good point.

On 11/17/2022 at 11:14 AM, Godlearner said:

So hunting using missle weapons such as a bow was not the standard way until the invention of firearms. Most of the weapons used by our hunter ancestors were things like spears and clubs. Use of pits and traps was also pretty common. Bows just did not have the stoping power or the accuracy needed and would be used for mainly small game, birds and fish. 

I tend to disagree with that.

In the area where I live, the Native Americans used spears and bows to hunt quite a bit. When taking large game [deer, elk, etc.], it was usually a group effort that took the better part of a day. You wounded the animal and tracked it until it was exhausted and then put it out of its misery [insert Peaceful Cut here, pun intended]. Often several hunters would 'work' the same prey, shooting and tracking the quarry and then everyone in the village would get part of the kill.

And this only got more efficient after the introduction of the horse and mounted hunting.

What's more, I submit to you that a lucky hit with a composite bow [dmg 1d8+1] backed by Speedart [dmg +3] is a highly efficient way to put meat on the table. A lucky shot on an average RQG deer [Special Success w/ piercing weapon is an Impale result: average dmg 4+1=5 doubled = dmg 10 + Speedart +3 = dmg 13] would drop it in it's tracks. ANY location hit would cripple or instant-kill even a SIZ 26 elk from the RQ Bestiary. Even cutting that down by using a self bow would still get a crippled limb and bleeding wound, thus making the prey easier to track and finish off. So for the expenditure of 1 arrow and 1 Magic Point you've brought home enough meat to feed your family for a week.

If the hand is off at the wrist, I'd say no. If off at the elbow, perhaps reduce the HP by 1 point.

Getting a little bit min/max power gamer with it, the HP in the arm are valuable barriers for the chest location.

13 minutes ago, Bill the barbarian said:

Mischievous children do, though... Cats being mischievous, one might be able to make a myth based on that... Dennis the Menace and Mr Wilson's cat (or how Whiskers turned the tale on that brat)?

Oh great...

The Great God Hobbes and the Rune Lord are called Calvins... lol!

14 minutes ago, Jeff said:

Foundchild provides Sureshot, Speedart, and Multimissile - which is pretty much ALL the missile spells. Arrow Trance is elf magic - Mr. Archery himself doesn't have it.

Is the questionreally why doesn't Odayla the Bear God or Yinkin the Cat God provide missile weapon spells?

Well, I mentioned in the top post that Yinkin is a cat. Cats don't use slingshots much 😂

From looking at things, it appears to me that hunter gods don't grant archery spells AND the beast transformation spells. It appears to be one or the other.

A question came up on another thread regarding hunter cults and missile weapon spells. The big question is 'Why do most hunting cults not have missile spells?'

I think I can answer that, sort of. These answers make sense to me, but I have no proof of my suppositions one way or the other.

Firstly, if you look at the spells provided by all cults over the four major pantheons [Air/Storm, Earth, Fire/Sky, and Lunar] you'll notice that a deliberate effort was made to NOT make all spells available to all pantheons. It's fairly difficult, for example, to get Sun Strike or Mindblast as a Storm cultist, and Lightning is almost unknown amidst the Lunars. It seems obvious that that was intentional by design.

Secondly, a lot of hunter cults are focused on an animalistic deity form. Yinkin, for example, isn't anthropomorphic like the Egyptian Bast. Yinkin IS a cat, and therefore does his hunting with claws and teeth. I can see why animal idolizing cults don't have missile spells in that context.

But that doesn't explain why humanocentric deities don't have them.

With Odayla, his conquest of Sky Bear gives him the three Head, Body, and Limbs of the Beast spells. But I don't think it would break the bank if he got Sureshot as well.

Foundchild has all the archery spells you could want, save for Firearrow and Arrow Trance.

Yinkin we have already discussed.

Anyone else have any thoughts on this?

1 hour ago, Rodney Dangerduck said:

The solution to that is to give those hunting cults some archery rune magic.

I agree. In my opinion adding some archery magic to hunting cults would be less of a change or disruption to canon than adding bows to the cult of Humakt. But that's not what we were discussing.

But you know, I think I'll start a separate thread on that, now that you mention it.

@Andrew M Well, YGMV, mon frere.

I think the subcult idea isn't a bad compromise for your game though. I don't know if it shows up in mine, though.

The benefit to a 'Bow-Humakt' subcult is that it gives Storm worshipers in your campaign access to some fairly nice archery Rune Magic [Arrow Trance, etc.] that neither Odayla or Yinkin teach.

So this is kind of weirdo question that occurs to me at 5am....

The cult of Waha limits the Heal spell of initiates and greater to Heal 1. Now, I fully grant you that Heal 1 is better than Heal none, but it won't stop the bleeding on penetrating wound.

So it occurs to me to ask: is the limit of Heal 1 an aspect of Waha's dogma or is it an aspect of the Death Rune? To put it another way, are ALL Death Rune worshipers limited to Heal 1 or just Waha worshipers?

23 minutes ago, Soccercalle said:

Does the sword curse applies to Humakti that converts to Yanafal Tarnils and starts using scimitars (a type of sword)? Isn't Humakt converting to YT quite "common" in the canons. 

I have nothing against the sword curse but would probably only have it affect "straight" swords. (That can further explain why YT uses scimitars).

We had a great big discussion about Humakt, Yanafal, and the differences thereof and came up with YGMV.

Some thought that Humakt and YT were almost Associated cults, so close as to be indistinguishable. I and some others strongly disagreed. There are good reasons in canon for and against each position. Where I personally came down was that Humakt at his core is a Storm god and the Storm pantheon's mortal enemy is the Red Goddess [or 'Scarlet Harlot' as I called her, to some amusement]. YT helped bring Sedenya into Glorantha, thereby upsetting the Compromise, and so AFAIC Humakt and YT are completely separate cults.

What does that mean for the Sword Curse? IMG, it means that no straight blade will serve the apostate and that it is only by the intervention of YT that curved blades will serve him.

But again, YGWV

OK first off, YGMV and MGF. If Bow-Humakti make you happy, have at it.

At my table, I would give that a great big 'nope'. Here's why:

- Humakt's very symbol is the sword Death... not only the Rune, not only the life condition, but the actual physical item

- Humakt's cult weapons [those taught to initiates and required for Sword of Humakt] are swords... not axes, maces, left-handed pandy bats, nothing else.

- One of Humakt's geases [geasa] is 'Use no non-cult weapons'

- Archers already have patron deities in both Aldrya and Yelm

- Lastly, Humakt's 'spirit of reprisal' in previous editions was the Sword Curse: break faith with Humakt and no sword will ever serve you again. You lose your grip on them and they fall to the ground or even shatter in your hand... yes, even sword with bound intelligent spirits in them. I think this is one of the best religious oath-breaker penalties in any game ever and have chosen to keep it in my game.

Now, again, YOUR Glorantha is absolutely gonna be different from mine. Nothing wrong with that at all. But this is how it works in mine.

My wife chimes in...

"STOP STABBING THE CEILING!" 🤣😂😘

Those of you who own yard long pieces of wall decor, please post them here!

I turned 58 last month. The Cute Brunette Who Says She Loves Me surprised me with a sword I need for my Civil War reenacting. It's not absolutely necessary to have. It's a uniform item but I have my enlisted cavalryman's saber from my time in the Army that does the same job just fine. But, she loves me so...

And I have to confess to you all... every time I pick up a sword [and I own 5 of them now] I feel like an 8 year old who's playing with toy he knows he really shouldn't have... 🤣😂

I agree with your reply to me, @Darius West.

As I see it, initiations and Sacred Time ceremonies offer a glimpse into the God or Hero Planes but only along well-known mythic paths. The average 'Bob' initiate doesn't have nearly the harrowing experience that Argrath had in Prince of Sartar. Entry into the Hero Plane ought to take a lot more effort than a Godsday Sanctify spell or some other triviality.

HeroQuests,especially personal ones, take courage, preparation, and support. They also take more than just one person's personal POW to invoke. Unless special circumstances exist [and those are all over the place in Glorantha] it ought to take the prayers of a whole clan in the presence of their wyter to translate questers into the Hero Plane. And quick note about those 'special circumstances'... those are THE most dangerous of Hero Quests. By definition, if you don't know what myth you're interacting with, you cannot prepare for the path set before you. At that point one path becomes many and you can find yourself lost on the Hero Plane with no way home. Or you could be defeated by Chaos and return to Mundane Plane tainted by the Chaos Rune and a tentacle growing out of your ear.

The average everyday clan carl is exposed to the Gods Plane in little tiny sips... enough to reaffirm his faith but not enough for him to get into trouble. If there was ONE lesson that Gbaji, the God Learners, and Sedenya's failed quest show it is that HeroQuesting is not for the average person, nor is it something to be done cavalierly.

4 hours ago, Jeff said:

Let's be precise about terms. Every initiate experiences the Gods World and interacts with it every time the deity is invoked with a successful Worship ceremony. But that's how far most people go. They stick around the God's Place, witness the god and its allies, but do not stray.

A few people - mainly Rune Lords and Rune Priests - go beyond this, sticking to more familiar paths and interact with powers and entities outside of the god's control.

Far fewer people - heroquesters -  go off the familiar path and explore the Hero Plane. 

That was my sense of it @Jeff, that the real secrets and powers of a HeroQuest are those to go off the by-rote script and seek out the meanings and effects underneath the dogma.

And yes, I realize I'm tap-dancing on the edge of God Learner heresy here 😁

I had forgotten that initiates enter the Gods World during their initiation... that it isn't all just your elders in funny masks. The Prince of Sartar webcomic illustrated that right at the beginning.

In the published 'official' RQG supplements [by Chaosium, not Jonstown Compendium] it seems as if every other adventure includes someone on a HeroQuest, someone who's been on a HeroQuest, or someone who claims to have been on one.

Now, I understand that the Sacred Time rites count as HeroQuests of a sort... they reenact important events in pantheon's history and reaffirm the clan's magic. But this seems more like 'HeroQuesting as religious observation' rather than serious exploration in search of challenges and powers. In modern Earth terms the Sacred Time rites might equate to a devout Christian carefully observing all the Christian rites around Easter. So is there a 'tier system' to HeroQuesting?

The King of Dragon Pass game implies that HeroQuesting is never something taken lightly and usually requires clan support, if not the support of fellow cultists in near clans as well. But other NPC descriptions in RQG imply that some NPCs HeroQuested on their own volition with almost no support at all.

So I guess my question is just as the title of the thread says... How common is HeroQuesting really?