davecake

Yes, Illuminated Lunars no longer need to adhere to their strictures. But it's not as simple as 'there are no longer any rules', more like you should now be able to see the reason for the rules, and to understand when they are necessary and when they aren't. You are out of school now. Using school here as a metaphor - while the Lunar cults have many practical magic powers, and are super useful for doing normal magic stuff, spiritually in the Lunar way they are training grounds for mysticism, when the real spiritual work starts. They are training grounds. There are many schools, based on the lives of known Lunar Immortals - some are strict (DX), some are not, some are only for certain kinds of people or specialise in teaching certain things. Once you "graduate", some rules you are encouraged to keep forever, some are no longer necessary, but either way no one can make you keep them all the time any more. So some rules are there to get you to being Illuminated, some are there to discourage you from going crazy when you do become Illuminated, some you should follow perhaps only to enco urage the not yet Illuminated to follow, but you can now break if it is appropriate, and so on. They don't take it on faith, though - further advancement in the Lunar Way (starting with joining the Red Goddess cult directly) is controlled by Examiners, who look at your achievements and behaviour and ask you deep questions, and decide if you are on the right path (and not obviously crazy and/or dangerous). Of course, some people say this prudent system has become hopelessly corrupted by mere politics and the pragmatic needs of the state and such, but in theory it prevents the Lunar war becoming a free for all. So - spiritual reasons to keep to strictures? Some of them are there to guide your post-Illuminated life, by giving you ethical rules to stick to that are supposed to be help your spiritual advancement. Eg it is good for Yanafals Tarnils to be honourable, even if it is longer enforced by spirits of retribution etc it is a good rule to follow. Practical reasons to keep to strictures? Failing to keep to some strictures, if known, may hinder your life in many practical ways but including your advancement in the Lunar way. If a YT does dishonorable things or disobeys military orders, an Irripi Ontor sage lies to other Lunars, and people know it, they are going to have a hard time holding on to their position, and a hard time advancing in the Lunar way unless they can explain it to the Examiners (though in both cases, a convincing 'for the good of the Empire' is very likely to get you off the hook). But some strictures aren't really necessary any more. Your Danfive Xaron ex-con is now redeemed, and not required to keep to the harsh rules of the cult any more. Your Irripi Ontor initiate may be told Lunar secrets, and told that lying to protect those secrets is expected if necessary.

I was being somewhat facetious - vampires can, of course, have hobbies. But their only methods of making themselves more powerful and dangerous are, more or less, Vampiric ritual sacrifice of victims, and endless study of sorcery. Most of their skills, including combat skills, quickly reach a point they can only be increased by experience (so they increase, but slowly, and involve the vampire putting itself in danger). So yes, they can have hobbies, and most of them are going to be something they do until it becomes frustratingly difficult to increase, and most of them are going to be 'character notes' as you describe, things their ancient minds obsess over mostly to relieve the boredom of the centuries. Their real interests probably tend to be things like seeking new vampire magic, manipulating the lives of mortal followers, seeking new schemes for maintaining a good supply of victims, etc.

Loosely spirit magic is better, point for point, than the equivalent sorcery spell - but there are other issues, like sorcery spells maintained over a long period of time are muhc better than being able to cast the equivalent spirit magic spell at need (those 8 pt spells are actually 23 pt spells if cast lasting a season!). And they differ in lots of minor ways that depend on circumstance, that only you can know if they apply to your party. But it seems like, for example, the originals had Ironhand 4 or Bladesharp 4 (never both at once), which increased their damage by +4, and the new ones have +2D6 damage for Boon of Kargan Tor 8, probably plus another +1d6 or so increased damage bonus for Enhanced STR and SIZ, on top of already hefty STR, so at least +3D6, and then Neutralise Armor 8, very loosely worth up to about 8 points of extra damage vs heavily armoured foes, so obviously put together a massive upgrade compared to just Ironhand 4, even considering they don't get the +20% to hit (though some increase possible from attribute boosts). 8 point Ward Against Weapons is probably about the same as Protection 4 though - its lack of reliability makes it less desirable for most people, but for vampires it's probably about the same. Still, having it constantly up for a season - and a lot of the time, the Disappear will mean opponents are at -50% to hit as well.

Yep. Treat them like sorcerers who can cast magic using POW they have stolen from a sacrificed victim. Mostly, their rituals are cool vampire stuff, including the stuff they did using Rune Magic in Cults of Terror (summoning Ghouls, animating zombies, some small shades, etc) and some new stuff (including most of Delecti's ritual magic, like making Blackthorn Trees to expand the Marsh, or body swapping). Rituals must be learned individually like sorcery ones. They can also use the POW they drain in sorcery (eg instead if the POW needed to master Runes and Techniques). This is temple ritual sacrifice stuff, not magic to use in combat. I think basilisks would be another example of vampire sorcery. I'd have Vampiric version of enchanting spells, that can use the POW from sacrifices instead of POW - I think just allowing vampires to wholesale do enchanting with victims POW is very powerful indeed. Eh, I think it is a significant upgrade in power compared to their RQ2 spirit magic, but what matters is are they too tough for your players, and you are best placed to judge that. Only a few new vampires, but a lot of the old ones certainly are. Due to a lack of competing vampire hobbies. Yeah, me too, and I think it's a vampiric ritual - i.e. not every vampire has this ability, and it's a temple ritual. Anyone who really hates the idea of them draining Rune Magic from others (looking at Peter 👀) can just not use that ritual in their games.

Yes! And in the orthodox mystic view, they are ultimately both distractions from what really matters - however you express that transcendent reality, it transcends both. Total agreement here too. And it is basically this which is the main reason why anyone who isn’t a mystic cares about mysticism. Because having the hierarchies of your Otherside disrupted (often to the point of having it wholesale rearranged) is both a glorious and terrifying prospect, especially if you are a theist who has made yourself submissive to it. This is one big reason why it’s the theist societies of central Genertela that have freaked out about it the most. And it is a temptation for the mystic, because their seems an awful lot of useful things you can do... but it’s still ultimately a distraction, another way to ‘fail’, though a much more impressive one than just being crap at meditating. And right with you on the mystical associations of the Solar pantheon, too. Dayzatar isn’t a god associated with mysticism in a practical way, just monasticism. He isn’t about knowledge of the self etc - he is about total devotion to knowledge of the Light. And it’s telling the Lunars have basically totally ignored the cult. And it’s about reinforcing the Solar worldview entirely - the importance of purity, Yelm is well understood to be associated with Illumination, he is one of the gods most often mentioned as Illuminated (whatever that means for a god), has a long (on and off) history with mysticism since the first Age. It’s telling he is one of the few gods with opposed Runes - he has Life and Death, just like the Seven Mothers, implying you can’t truly understand his mysteries without Illumination. And the great mystery of the One and the Many seems very much tied up with core mystic concerns. And, of course, the Lunars recognise Yelm’s importance and have recognised that mystic core of the cult in numerous ways. Of course, they’ve greatly enhanced it from what was there before - but the history of Illumination within the Yelm cult long precedes them. And Antirius/Yelmalio has a long association with mysticism. The Hill of Gold, the central mystery of that cult, can be read as a mystic parable - it is not the winning of the battle that is the true victory, it is doing ones duty and the effect on ones self that is the true victory. And of course the reshaping of the cult into the mystic cult of Daysenarus, and becoming the primary martial arm of the Bright Empire in the process, is well known. With lingering effects on the cult - what are Gifts and Geases, but a theistic version of Austerities?

Sure, but do you think it is evil? Inimical? Intrinsically wrong? Like, literally you think we'd be better off not having developed it? Right, so you think it is practically problematic, but ... philosophically... you are ok with it? Somewhat... neutral?

If you think ascetism and an obsession with purity and isolation makes mysticism, then you are on the wrong track. I mean, it would be a big surprise to medieval monastic orders that they aren't about worship. Ascetism is used by all forms of magic, and ritual purity seems to be related. Meditation likewise. He is certainly unworldly, but I think Dayzatar monks are trying to essentially arrange their entire life around worshipping Dayzatar. For a broad definition of 'mystic methods' you might say Dayzatar is using mythic methods for theist goals - but I'm not really sure there methods are mystic either, given that they basically spend their time in prayer.

Well, yes. But are we then to assume that any mystic who is not walking around is therefore invalid? The point is, are his teachings still followable to achieve some mystic effect. His *other* magic has been lost. But that's a different thing. And his path is clearly incomplete. But that is also a different thing. Mysticism is the method, Nysalor documented a method, and how to teach it. If Nysalorism was dead, then Nysalor Riddles wouldn't work. But they do. Once again, it seems you confuse mysticism with mystics use of other magic. The guide says 'The magic provided is inconsequential and typically of no interest save to those who study it.' - but you say the opposite, you are saying that it isn't real mysticism UNLESS it grants magic that is highly consequential. When you are arguing that canon is not just flawed, but literally 100% the opposite of correct, maybe take a minute to reflect?

Unless they, say, had support from others or heroquested, or had access to extremely powerful magic? Why not? And even if we accept it wasn't a heroquest (though I don't follow your reasoning at all), why jump then to mysticism, without any evidence to indicate it? Seriously, this is asking about two sentences about Xemela to bear an extraordinary amount of weight. is there anything, anywhere, which says Xemela did not have some magical support from her community, in her efforts to save them? It looks to me you inferred it, simply because in that handful of sentences it does specifically state what we would normally expect, and then expect others to treat it as hard evidence. And there is significant doubt that she is just a normal human in any case - and we are talking ancient stories that would be reconceptualised to fit in with more current conceptions anyway.

and I've answered that multiple times already - most likely by essentially theistic techniques, probably grabbing from numerous sources. That you can take source of magical power and access them via different methods than the original is not a new idea, not in dispute, and actually kind of routine. Yes, shamans can talk to the same entities on the spirit plan that might be sacrificed to by a priest or invoked by a sorcerer and it all works. I know no one wants to bring back the idea of Misapplied Worship (well, I don't, I no longer understand what Darius wants), but let's call it Differently Applied Worship. Using a particular form of magic to obtain magic from an entity does not mean your magic is really another form of magic that someone else uses to obtain magic from that entity.

They have the spell Worship Immanent Mastery, and exactly how they conceive their worship I don't really know or think matters. POI is more or less a God Learner creation, and the God Learners proved they can theistically worship made up stuff and get useful magic from it, so maybe they deified some dragon hsunchen spirit, or could be just an anthropomorphised (draconimorphised?) an abstract concept, who knows - exactly how they conceptualise their object of worship is no doubt explained with enough Charismatic Wisdom. Come to the Outer Circle Mastery encounter circle workshop next week, and all will be explained! It's certainly possible, or even likely, that they started with an animist dragon-totem somewhere in the mix, but it's also clear that it's a product of the best theological engineering the God Learners could achieve. And that whatever the truth is, its concealed behind many layers of, ummm... let's just say material whose veracity is hard to verify and may be entirely beside the point, without resorting to crud fecal metaphors. And there seems to be abundant evidence for the latter, and precious little for the former, other than their own claims, which appear quite contradictory to just about everyone. I would think that is fairly obvious. It turns you into a dragon. That may be mystically dubious, but from a purely mundane point of view, it is totally awesome. The mystic validity of the Kralori state Darudic member is a very good question - but it seems that at least some dragonewts accept it, it seems to have at least some big commonalities with other mystic traditions, and to be capable of the sort of big feats that mystics seem to do. Like every other mystic empire, it is probably a messy mix of multiple strands of mysticism of varying validity, some of which are 'failed' in ways that are terribly convenient to the maintenance of an empire. I don't think any of this means that some strands of draconic mysticism are not quite valid. But the exciting details of the metaphysical compromises the Kralori Empire uses to balance its spiritual goals with running a vast and magical empire are probably best for another thread - I have lots of ideas, but it would be very speculative, and we barely have enough knowledge to talk about those details for the Lunars or the EWF.

I find arguments based around novel use of terminology, setting yourself in opposition to both the majority of scholarship, and specifically Greg's definition, to be an essentially pointless exercise. Either, you are using language in a completely different way to everyone else to describe the same phenomenon, or you are describing a different phenomenon. Maybe, though the Lunars would presumably disagree, or at least claim that Illuminated Chaos beings that have embraced the Lunar way are no longer almost always evil, probably mostly not (though Chaos monsters can be Occluded like anyone. Unity with The One requires effectively infinite INT - by definition the One has no limits to the power of its Mind, but can hold all thoughts. Mere Illumination is not unity with the One, but a momentary glimpse of it - but it shows the possibility. And it's important to understand that what a sorcerer might want out of life (method) is very different to the objective of Malkioni religion (goal), in general, but especially for Irensavalism, with its rejection of the material world. Increasing INT is progress, in a way, towards union with the One, but finite progress towards an infinite goal is never going to be an enough on its own. Some Malkioni just resign themselves to knowing their goal is never achievable within this life (but maybe in the afterlife), some must ultimately resort to means other than the purely sorcerous (which may involve mystic methods, or may be rather more heroquesty or other grand magic beyond any individuals - various God Learner factions). The Brithini, of course, just think individuals should ignore it all, ignore anything that transcends the self, and just hope that someday they might be called on to help Zzabur fix everything.

And furthermore, anyone who would simply lump together Satanists and Thelemites without distinction, really does not know that sector of the occult community well at all. Though anyone that would even lump Satanists all in together as a monolithic group doesn't know too much either. The Church of Satan, and the Satanic Temple, and the Temple of Set, for example, are all quite different. I do know a few Satanists and former Satanists, and know a fair bit about it, but it has almost no relevance to discussion. If anyone is madly curious about dire secrets like the Temple of Set's favourite old Doctor Who episodes, feel to ask me privately. But in general the rampant use of Templar and Assassin related symbolism, including Baphomet, is rife in the occult community of the period, from the 18th Century through to the early 20th, especially in Freemasonic groups of all kinds - and symbolism that far outgrows its origins in cultural significance is common outside the occult anyway. Arguing that its wrong is like arguing that the modern use of a common word is wrong because of its etymology a millennia before. To inject at least a little Gloranthan relevance, the closest Gloranthan equivalent to actual Satanists would appear to be the Transgressor heresies in the Middle Sea Empire - though the Vadeli also seem to have some things in common with forms of Satanism. Nope, I'm not a Satanist. It's not for me, though I'd not find anyone discussing their personal religious beliefs an occasion for laughter and mockery*. I'm not aware I outed myself as anything other than well informed in this discussion ? Though I've certainly discussed my private beliefs elsewhere. I think the only things mentioned in this thread that are not public knowledge available with fairly straightforward Googling, I knew through science fiction fandom, or through Glorantha fandom. But one last word (from another well known occultist, who has written on Black Magic but definitely isn't a Satanist) on the whole issue of 'the real truth' or otherwise of occult symbolism - "There are few things more dull than the criticism which maintains that a thesis is untrue, and cannot understand that it is decorative." - A.W. Waite *well, unless it was clearly satirical, rock on pastafarians and discordians and sub-genii etc. .

I'm assuming there will be complex cases in the midst of warfare - but yes, just warring on a different elf forest while remaining integrated into the life of your own does not seem like it would make an elf a Renegade.

I don't know that it ever says so specifically, but my impression is that the bow seed is granted on initiation into the High King Elf cult, so an elf that has always been Rootless would not have one. But I've also never seen it suggested that the touch of a Rootless elf withers an elf bow, or anything else to indicate that they lose the use of an elf bow they already have. So I think it would vary on history. (same for embyli living blowguns, etc)

That seems a very big assumption, and one likely to mislead. I no longer really have any ideas what your ideas about mysticism in the West are in any coherent manner - you think it is used by pre-Hrestoli just because they do a big magic? You seem to arbitrarily decides things that we have no reason to think are mystic must be mystic for arbitrary reasons, yet doggedly defend that things we are explicitly told aren't mystically valid must be. The pattern appears to be becoming less consistent and coherent, not more. Many of them, surely so. I'll even grant that you might be right on 'mainly', though I suspect mystic groups hiding inside other groups. All of them, including the secret ones? It seems an odd tack to take that one of the very few known lines of mystics in the West is definitely not mystic. I mostly think of it being many secret or semi-secret societies, many of them with multiple rings of initiation, and sometimes inner rings of initiation for which the secret entrance requirement is 'being Illuminated'. OK, causing the utter downfall of an Empire, utterlying eliminating entire groups of magicians, and being cursed the world over is not enough for you to give it a bad review. Whatever. Right, so you believe it is intrinsically bad then I presume? You are opposed to it regardless of the use to which it is put? Opposed to not just fission and fusion, but any use of gamma radiation, including radiotherapy? Are you opposed to naturally occurring radioactive isotopes? To fusion in the sun having gamma radiation was a side effect? Or maybe just to all high energy physics? What do you mean by 'not philosophically neutral' towards a natural phenomenon, which has multiple uses? No, I'm suggesting exactly what I said, when I quoted from the rules book. "the illuminated one will know as truth that Chaos is, in itself, neither evil nor inimical. It makes the person free from automatic fear of Chaos." is how Cults of Terror put it, recent sources put it differently. Philosophically, Chaos itself is neither good or evil. Individual expressions or uses of Chaos may be, but not Chaos itself. I call that philosphically neutral. Do you disagree with that? Or is this all just definitional games? And am I saying nobody but an Illuminate can talk about Chaos in a philosophically neutral fashion? I actually have no idea why you think I even I said that, or what cause you to think that. The answer is in theory no, in practice its pretty damn unusual for most. A Lhankor Mhy disssertation on Chaos in Cosmology would still have to be treading pretty close to heresy to do so. But the point is not that only Illuminates can perceive Chaos somewhat neutrally - if in a culture that preaches it, like the Lunar Empire, many will do so. The point is that generally Illuminates WILL see Chaos in a philosophically neutral way, regardless of their cultural predispositions.

All but the Rootless or the Renegades. I suspect almost all Renegades are Rootless, though unsure about how they'd think about that in the First age elf war era or other extreme times. And the Rootless are those who don't hear the song of the forest (and are usually elves). There is a small percentage who just can't hear the song, and so are cut off from joining the Aldrya cult, or it can be voluntary, and I'm sure there are various reasons why it happens (including joining other cults, becoming a sorcerer, etc). Mostly it seems to be voluntarily reversible if the reason for Rootlessness is removed. Aldryami pity them. Rootless elves can remain part of Aldryami society, and can be useful by taking on roles that are normally forbidden to Aldrya members and serving society that way. Being Rootless probably makes it much easier for elves to undertake long periods away from their forest, as well. Renegades are more a political stance than a magical one - it is turning ones back on the forest. They are Aldryami who are enemies of Aldryami. Yes. Yelmalio is normally worshipped in association with the High King Elf cult, and the elves in the Marching Aldryami are almost always Aldrya, initiates and often Yelmalio as well. Chalana Arroy is also an associated cult of Aldrya. I think many of the elves who worship Babeester Gor are Rootless, possibly all or most. I don't know about Asrelia or Ty Kora Tek - if TKT was known, she might be treated like Babeester Gor. Same for Maran Gor. But Gata and Ernalda, the fertile upper Earth, are associated with Aldrya and minorities among Aldryami also worship them directly. I think funeral rites and dealing with the dead among elves are possibly mostly shamanic?

And I suspect so close as to starting from scratch as to make no difference. For every useful thing learnt, there may mistakes to be corrected. There is absolutely no evidence at all that the POI achieve any results that are not of a purely physical nature from what appear to be both purely theist techniques, and quite limited in nature at that. Literally, they have less magic of a spiritual or mystic nature than almost every other cult there is - not even the most common common magic. I am absolutely baffled as to what 'results' are so impressive that you think it must be mystically valid. What do we know about Charismatic Wisdom? We know it is of literally no value other than seeking membership to the Inner Circle. It is not even of any further use to those IN the Inner Circle. And it is incomprehensible and uninteresting to outsiders. That does not suggest any coherent theory whatsoever. They literally observe the example of Godunya, and do the exact opposite. Or is your entire thesis that because they can purely physically and superficially resemble dragons, it must be valid? Because I draw the exact opposite conclusions. It seems to be pretty much the same sort of thing as 'Kabbalah' follower celebrities wearing red strings without My feeling is that they have completely misunderstood the purpose and relevance of draconic form, and so are doggedly focussed on results that Darudist magic would regard essentially as a side effect of progress that is at best a distraction. Its Cargo Cult magic dressed up with fancy words. The most charitable explanation is that they have, by using incorrect methods, learnt to mimic techniques that they then have no idea how to use correctly. But I think that is chararitable, in that it allows that would be possible to at least learn the correct use of them, and other EWF sources say therYe is essentially no correct use outside of meditation and ritual, whereas the goal of the POI is to use their powers in daily life if possible. Yes, but in large that is because the POI skip all the stuff that either seems to have aspects beyond the purely physical, or because they want to skip all the early stuff (like any dragonnewt stage prior to 5th, etc). Their goal is to do it all the time (to have enough points in Dragon Life to stay in dragon form for the rest of their life), but obviously few succeed. And while that is an interesting idea, one that I think is quite valid, and I think very interesting when we get around to talking about the roots of Darudism (and Venfornism for that matter, and Korgatsu, and all that), and the larger relationship between shamanism and mysticism, its largely outside this thread. For purposes of the POI, it's enough to note that even if we grant that there is a deep connection between draconic mysticism and dragon hsunchen shamanism, the POI have also rejected all shamanic methods, and all spiritual and non-physical aspects of shamanism (eg most of it) in their very single minded focus on aping draconic physical form through limited theist methods. I'm sure Charismatic Wisdom includes many baffling confusing references to ancient dragon people though. Exactly. Well, I'm sure they use some of the same *words*, but I think almost everything written about mysticism says that the simple ability to perform valid magic is almost entirely unrelated to mystic validity. So you would be resting your entire argument on the idea that mysticism is intrically about being big fire-breathing lizard shaped, which seems fairly obviously a misdirect (one that the POI have fallen for, of course) to me.

I don't even find much evidence he rejects it, or at least not after his initial wrestling with the realisation ("He shook his head with chagrin, but without the black moodiness which I had known for days." - he seems ok with the fact of Illumination itself), but finds its consequences, including both the danger to the life of Paulis, and his own lack of battle-lust, pragmatically problematic. We don't actually know that much of what Oddi's attitude is - we know mostly what Paulis advises him, and can only presume Oddi takes his advice. Oddi afterwards seems not miserable or torn, and to have continued to behave as a pious Orlanthi and a brave Chaos fighter, but out of duty not hatred. I find the episode in general, with the brave fighter confessing his doubts before a dangerous battle, and Paulis' advice, to echo the Bhavagad Gita, especially in its emphasis on doing ones duty for ones position in life.

I think this is absolutely a fundamental insight, yes. And mystic aims can be sought through other methods. And there are plenty of magics used by mystics that aren’t mystic intrinsically, just useful for mystic purposes, and also for non-mystic purposes.

Yes. Illumination can happen involuntarily, with no indication that it is even happening, or allegedly even against the wishes of the Illuminatee. Illumination is possible by actions of an Illuminator that are not understood by the Illuminatee (the fundamental nature of Nysaloran riddling, relatively well known), by some action of an Illuminator via some indirect method (like building the Puzzle Canal, or other works of mystic art), or by extraordinary magical circumstances that are not specifically intended as Illuminating, but that are fundamentally associated with that moment of unity (such as heroquesting to incidents in the Green Age). All of this is clearly explained in the HQG writeup. I think the GoG writeup is unlikely to change it (and it’s unclear how much other than Nysaloran/Lunar Illumination it will address).

You perhaps, then, simply don’t know the occult community as well as you believe. like many sub-cultures, the most visible and stereotypical members you’ll find on the internet won’t teach you much about the core. But to be honest, I don’t really have much interest in you telling me smugly why you think are cleverer than other people, and think it of limited interest or relevance.

Yeah, I don't understand why everyone assumes that the only mysticism in Glorantha revolves around Illumination. They are one form of mysticism, sure, but there are others. Illumination and Nysaloran Illumination are distinguished in current definitions of Illumination. Taking a look at what the current definition of what Illumination is might help make some things clearer, I'll try to summarise my understanding here. I'm going with Illumination as described in HeroQuest: Glorantha , for the moment, though it may differ in some details from what appears in the Gods Book (and does differ from what appeared in 1981, but let's just assume that some things have been learnt in the last 40ish years, shall we?). I'm deliberately not including things that had changed in the previous Gods book draft, or deny them, and assume some may change. So taking the deep nature of mysticism etc aside for the moment, in order to make the distinction clearer: Illumination is an extraordinary state of mind attainable by various mystic techniques. Nysaloran Illumination is one belief system that taught how to obtain that state of mind, but there are numerous others. But every known Gloranthan magic system reliably described as mystic seems to include it - at least 'Umbarism, EWF draconic consciousness, Kralorelan draconic mystics, Vithelan mysticism, the Umathelan Cult of Silence, and even some God Learner schools all provided liberation similar to that of Nysalorean Illumination' and that list isn't intended to be exhaustive. So I think it's reasonable to assume that Illumination is associated with mysticism pretty fundamentally in Glorantha, but that Illumination does not mean Nysaloran Illumination. That state of mind gives benefits to the person that attains it. Almost always this includes the Secret Knowledge that Chaos is, in and of itself, neither evil nor inimical. It usually includes other abilities. Some of these abilities may be related to Chaos (such as immunity to Sense Chaos), some to cult restrictions (such as being able to ignore cult restrictions and spirits of retribution), some to Illumination itself (such as sensing Illumination in others, and teaching Illumination), and some to the inner nature of the Illuminate (such as combining incompatible Runes within themself, or power over their Passions). These abilities differ by both how Illumination was obtained, both the methods of learning it and the individuals experience, and the individuals acceptance and understanding of Illumination once it has occurred. There are probably some additional abilities that have not so far been described, but they haven't been described so we don't know what they are - we might speculate that some concepts from earlier conceptions of Illumination will turn up on the list of Illuminated abilities, but So from that we know that: there are forms of Illumination that are different to Nysaloran, particularly including draconic. Some of the non-Nysaloran forms do not necessarily have access to the abilities to ignore cult restrictions etc. Not all mysticism is 'nothing is true, everything is permitted'. That's Nysaloran for sure - though maybe not even as core Nysaloran as assumed, not every Nysaloran learns them, there may be other more important abilities. Other abilities seem far more relevant to other traditions - draconic philosophy seems to think a lot about the inner passions of the Illuminate, and not very much about Chaos. The ability that differs most obviously between traditions is Teaching Illumination. Nysaloran has a unique way of doing this, which seems easy compared to others, and unique. The EWF seemed to have to resort to surgery, at least at first. Dragons can teach it easily in conversation, but few opportunities to chat to True Dragons come up. The Lunars have magical methods, the Sevening Rites, but they seem rather drastic, with a strong chance of madness and mental damage. Other traditions may have no effective ability to teach (it is one of the least common abilities for Illuminates other than Nysalor Riddlers), and have to resort to methods like heroquesting to the Green Age. We also know that some mystic philosophies have magic that they teach before Illumination is obtained (that they presumably think will be more useful after Illumination than other magical forms), and some have magic that is only teachable to Illuminates - the magic of the Red Goddess being one example. This may or may not be truly 'mystic', a lot of it may be what Greg called 'failed mysticism', but it's associated with Illumination. Some of it is known to be, while useful, obviously a bad idea for mystic purposes, given the amount the EWF (in particular) go on about it, but it' still something you can learn after Illumination. It seems to be that some of this magic requires Illumination, but is something different to it, and specific to a particular system, rather than being an Illuminated ability as such - Red Goddess magic, EWF powers, etc. In practice, Sevened Lunars, Arkati, Kralori dragon mystics, etc have different Illuminated powers, different other magic, and different mystic practices, but they are all Illuminated. Illumination is clearly an important step along the mystic path, but it's also obviously a long way from the end of it. Its more comparable to initiation for mystics rather than high attainment? Or shamanic initiation if you prefer? I'm going to use Mysticism to indicate the Gloranthan form of magic for clarity. I think Greg considers that Mysticism as a magic system in Glorantha does not necessarily include everything we think of as mysticism in the world - some things that are somethings thought of as mysticism in general use might use non-mystic (generally, one of the other three forms of magic) methods to work towards mystic goals, but Mysticism is method. And I think Mysticsm as method always involve Illumination. Examples of real world traditions that have been described as mystic, but that Greg thinks are not Mysticism, include all that esoteric Taoist immortality stuff (its Sorcery), all the Tibettan Book of the Dead Red Hat Lama stuff (animism), and Mahayana Buddhism (theism).

How, then, would conceivably philosophical neutrality be demonstrated, if not by being able to neutrally consider what before you rejected? If your answer is essentially that philosophical neutrality can not be demonstrated, you haven't shown that it isn't demonstrated, just that you have defined the term in a way that is no longer useful. Define it in a way that makes a sensible useful distinction. Because to me, we are straight out told that he no longer considers "that Chaos, in itself, is either evil or inimical", because that is what Illumination is explained to mean on the very next page, and that is a philosophical change, not merely an emotional one. The emotional changes stem from the Secret Knowledge, not the other way around.

Wow, a mystic practice that sought the Great Self, the infinite nature of existence perceivable only to gods, is the same as Immanent Mastery, a practice who seeks only to mimic the most superficial aspects of draconic existence without using mystic methods perceivably at all, because both are less than a conception that includes not only the infinite nature of existence, including universal awareness of consciousness, but also that which is not that? Yes, I see now. No, wait a minute, that's stupid. While Nenduren may be an only *nearly* full transmission of the teaching of Oorduren, there is basically no evidence that Immanent Mastery is anything other than an almost entirely unrelated bundle of nonsense.