davecake

I think Greg changed his mind on this. Or at least, would regard every immanent mystic as failed as long as they remained mystic. It's worth considering that the use of dragon powers in a practical way is always considered to be something that hinders spiritual development by dragonewts, and sometimes death is preferable. This also shows up in the EWF stories as well, the idea that dragon magic must be used sparingly for spiritual advancement. Now consider that the Path of Immanent Mastery has, as their goal, just to mimic exactly the sort of magic that the dragonewts and EWF say hinders spiritual development and to do it all the time. I very much stand by my opinion that mystics consider them misguided idiots. And that Greg probably thought this was funny.

I was not intending my ideas about Irensavalism to represent the only group to incorporate some mysticism. I'm quite sure the Arkati still exist. But I think the idea that there would only be one tiny group in the entire West to have an interest in mysticism is a bit silly and a bit restrictive. The Arkati (like Mularik) are still basically a mystic movement in reaction to the misuse of mysticism by Nysalor. Talor was another. But I think we can't just think of Western mysticism that way any more, as if nothing has happened since the First Age - and in particular, I think the various Arkats, and the Loskalm/ New Hrestoli are different reactions to the perceived misuse of mysticism by the God Learner. Though both have some things in common - in particular, relentless examination and a strict moral code - but there are very different reactions to the complex disaster that was God Learnerism, and the role of Illumination within it. Then again, the Lunars believe in careful examination of their Red Goddess Initiates too, they just allowed the process to become utterly corrupted by political considerations, they have an Empire to run after all. Mularik's gang just decided to keep their group a tiny elite, Talor's followers decided to try to separate mysticism from earthly concerns as much as possible. You are, I think, confusing a philosophical neutrality towards Chaos, with practical unconcern with its moral consequences. I am philosophically neutral towards gamma radiation, but that does not mean I am in favour of there being much of it in my immediately vicinity or wish to visit Chernobyl, or consider nuclear warfar to have no moral consequence. And absolutely no one has ever thought that all Illuminates are in favour of Chaos without considering its moral consequences. In fact, literally the first published material about Illumination also made it clear that the Illuminated Arkati were Illuminates who believed the moral consequences of Chaos were dire and did not accept it - despite their philosophical acceptance of it within the universe. And as the Invisible God of the Irensavalists is a mystic concept that fully conceivable by a normal mortal mind, it is pretty clearly a mystic goal. Now, seeking a mystic goal doesn't have to mean using mystic methods, but, well, I think they may well for multiple reasons, including the many hints that Talor was Illuminated (as Arkat was), and their clear rejection of anything too empirical or mundane and desire to transcend the material. But even if they do use mystic methods (and it is largely speculative on my part) it's a secret inner doctrine to take on after you've already become a magus and so transcended the material - then you are ready to use mysticism to transcend the immaterial. The aim of Illumination is to transcend the limits of the magical constraints on us, freeing us to transcend the immaterial aspects of existence. I think we have to take it that Nysalor, the Red Goddess, are not complete fools - Nysalor may have been terrible at communicating the higher mysteries to his followers, but he knew there was more to it than just realising you'd been magically liberated, and stopping all mystic work at that point and just collecting cool powers. Nysalorism is an incomplete form of mysticism, because of what Nysalor teaches poorly (and he may well have had reasons for some of that, including trying to teach some of it in person by magical means when he was alive). But the occasional Nysaloran mystic learns a bit more themselves anyway. And modern (1620s) Nysalorism isn't First Age Nysalorism at all - not just because Nysalor isn't around, but because it's had a huge amount of interaction with the Lunar and Kralori mystics. The Red Goddess also has her own methods for further transcendance after Illumination, mostly grandiose magical ones, like creating her own Glamourous Otherworld. You may think that. But I think it's the model you are going to get in official products. I just think it's a very incomplete model of mysticism, though fundamentally not wrong. I think it is a dead tradition in a rather more literal fashion - it is an incomplete model, because there are things that Nysalor did not teach well, and Arkat got in the way of him fully transferring his teachings to others, and creating a living tradition. By kind of literally murdering as many of them as possible. So what has survived is only a partial version of Nysalor's teachings. what? A charitable interpretation is that you are assuming an incomplete tradition is therefore not mystic at all, which makes little sense to me. Or do you think the fact that they don't grant Rune magic etc somehow indicates its not capable of being mysticism? FWIW, I think it is clear the Red Goddess thinks Nysalorism is an incomplete mystic system, and she has all sorts of wild ideas about how to complete it (creating her own Glamourous half-material Otherworld in the sky, for example). Its goal is to transcend the limits of the world, both material and otherwise. They start from a different place, and a different direction and in a different order, starting with overcoming the limits of the material rather than the limits of the magical. But to truly transcend it all, you've got to do it all. The dragonewts, of course, are far less likely to get sidetracked by worrying about mortality. Mysticism was taken out of HQ because it was believed the rules did not do a good job of covering it, in fact bad enough that it was better to remove them. I don't think there is any point in rehashing them. I don't think Dayzatar is mysticism either. It seems more like advanced dedicated theism. But it's an interesting case. While I agree, I think in practice such a system should be built around the Illumination idea at the core, probably mildly expanded, and you seem to want something utterly different. Illumination is explicitly not the same for everyone in terms of game stuff like powers obtained etc.

The Kygor Litor cult initiation is a formal ritual of recognition of adulthood as well, so for trollkin or for multiple birth trolls (who are considered formally troilkin until recognised as trolls) it is a big deal. Though I guess it is possible that it's the offer of initiation, rather than the ritual itself, that is the important thing But if the KL initiation, and the adulthood initiation, are the same, that raises the interesting notion that trolls who are not initiated into KL are not truly formally adults in troll society? Which is kind of funny to think that the ZZ cult are considered unruly children, but seems wrong for the Argan Argar Night Cult, Annilla, Gorakiki, etc. So maybe it is the qualification for KL initiation that is important.

Give the occult community some ability to understand what they are doing when they reinterpret and adopt earlier imagery. The Baphomet of Éliphas Lévi is not that of Phillip IV, or of the first crusade. There is a significant element of conscious syncretism and deliberate reinterpretation and reclamation of symbology. And if you don't recognise that is going on, that's your problem, not the Satanists and other occultists, who are often very self aware of this sort of thing (and I can assure you, also find a lot of it very funny, though probably for different reasons).

Being the Char-Un, I'm sure many would consider it the Even Madder Horse Disease.

But only one seems to be compatible with the upcoming Gods book, which has Yu-Kargzant and Kargzant as separate cults both worshipped in Pent. So this seems to be an argument there is no point in continuing. We can just wait for publication. Right, and as you have just essentially said you presume that what I say is inherently not to be trusted, so why should I bother to continue any further discussion? That sounds rather like the Sheng Seleris empire, doesn't it? [Guide pg 364] The Bursts at the top, leading a pure magical nomad lifestyle, are demigod magical ascetics, are a tiny ruling elite. The Rays as the next rank down "...maintained a less pure nomadic lifestyle and received far less impressive magical powers as a result. They depended upon their subject peoples for their food, income, and other general sources of life." - the PHP presumably flourished under Sheng, because they could easily maintain their lifestyle this way. And then the rank below that, the Warmed, in particular the Fires, is in part the Pentans identifying Yu-Kargzant as Yelm the ruler of the Dara Happan solar pantheon, and so making the other Solar cults implementors and instruments of that rule. Sheng I think got a lot of his power from that (and from using his Illuminated zolathi to terrify the subject cults into falling into line). I say in part, because of course there was a lot more to both Sheng's Empire and Sheng's magic than that - there are also elements of coopting Kralori mysticism and imperial magic, as well as native Pentan shamanism etc - but I think it is a lot todo with both how he conquered Peloria, and where he got a lot of his secrets that he used to create the Bursts demigods, and so successfully fight the Lunar Empire, using a lot of their own secrets against them (in addition to being able to beat them at their own mystic game frequently using Kralori knowledge). While it wasn't Sheng's personal project (Sheng being apparently far more interested in being Emperor of Kralorela than Emperor of Dara Happa), there was a definite (unsuccessful) attempt by [Sheng's brother I think?] to become Emperor of Dara Happa, presumably reviving Jenarong rites and attempting to put Yu-Kargzant back on top. It failed, presumably because the Lunars were able to prove the Red Emperor was still Emperor somehow, but it's interesting they tried. Regardless of the truth of an original PHP tribe, it seems a distinctly different group to the PHP now - the current PHP all seem to be culturally and ethnically descended from the Starlight Ancestors, not the Hyalorings, and originated in the Dawn era conflict between the two peoples immediately post-Dawn, and for practical purposes have always been a priestly caste among the Kargzant people. It could easily have originated as a priestly/ruling group within the Hyalorings that then became rulers of the Starlight Ancestor peoples as well (and got pushed out of Saird etc as it became Vingkotling/Orlanthi ruled). Yes, of course the Char-Un split off much later, but are now another distinct PHP group. It is interesting that the Char-Un seem to have used the Yu-Kargzant/Yelm identification to work so effectively with the Dara Happan priests to impress even the Lunars with the Skyburn (imitation being the sincerest form of flattery) - the Skyburn is said to be done with the aid of 'Exiled priests from Yuthuppa', presumably of Solar deities like Yelm and Dayzatar, and while cooperating with Pentans would normally be unlikely, former Pentan allies seem to be have been quite easy to collaborate with the create remarkable magic feats. Interesting this is pre-Sheng, too - demonstrates, I think, that Sheng was exploiting the natural compatibility that comes from Yu-Kargzant being Yelm. FWIW, I think of Yu-Kargzant linguistically as being just like Orlanth Rex - a god plus a dignifying title, indicating that the Pentans don't see them as different gods. But the difference in magic etc is obviously far larger. The speculative bit, that we don't have a good answer for, is how the Pentans conceptualise this. So taking a look at how the other parties conceputalise this: the Orlanthi thought of their Lightfore god Elmal as a quite separate being to Yelm, and at some point at least essentially must have considered him as the heir to Yelm, who took his place at the dawn (and the Dara Happans see him as an upstart Vingkotling horse god). The Yelmalions thought of their Lightfore god as a son of Yelm, but Yelm returned to life and resumed his place at the Dawn, leaving Yelmalio in perpetuity as Yelms servant with no sovereignty claim (the preferred title Count originally comes from 'companion [of the Emperor]' indicating the Yelmalio cult does not believe it has any independent claim of rulership, only as delegated from the true nobility). The vision of Monrogh was terribly convenient to the Sartar kings, as it made clear that the Elmal cult was really Yelmalio, and so had no independent claim to sovereignty (and so maybe could head a clan, but not a tribe and certainly not a kingdom). The Dara Happans thought of their Lightfore god, Antirius, as simply being a part of Yelm, a way by which mighty Yelm protected his people in the Darkness despite the inconvenience of being dead and in hell, and was simply recombined with the true Yelm at the Dawn (along with all the other inconveniently rival Solar gods like Vrimak and Enverinus/Oakfed and Berneel Arashagern, nearly eliminating their claims of supremacy as they are reduced to mere components of the Dara Happan god). To deal with the claims of Kargzant, they say that first Kargzant demonstrated his unworthiness by losing to Orlanth (more or less, managing to interpret the 'Elmal' story in a way favourable to Dara Happa), then Antirius taking over as the Lightfore god due to his superiour purity (like reclaiming his old house from a squatter), then it is all Antirius' work that leads to the true Dawn and reunification with Yelm. (the Dara Happans seem to be bullshitting on the whole issue of horses, btw, as it seems pretty clear that pre-Darkness Yelm was associated with birds more than horses - but its way more convenient to the new, Triplis based, Yelm cult to build their new cult giving primacy to Jenarong in Raibanth over those Kestinaddi bird guys) So what's the Pentan version? IMO clearly they think Kargzant and Yu-Kargzant are essentially the same god but in different roles (as the god of nomads, and as Emperor), but do they think that current Yelm is really Kargzant (Kargzant was a son of Yelm, became his heir when Yelm died, then was able to take his place as Emperor and assume the various scattered powers and roles and accountrements of Yelm to take his place as Emperor), or that Kargzant was Yelm (Kargzant was, like Antirius, a part of Yelm as the true Lightfore god, that though he had conflict with Orlanth/Elmalus this merely purified him (by learning PHP rites?) and later he became Yu-Kargzant by unifying his lost parts of the self at the Dawn). It's even possible they think of this as an unknowable mystery and its both at once, or something even more mysterious. I think this makes more sense for modern Pentans who have been exposed to Sheng era mysticism, who probably changed Pentan thinking quite a bit, at least among the magical elite. I think all conceptions are compatible with Sheng's 'life is slavery' dictum, with Kargzant being a servant to the Emperor, and the Emperor being a servant to the Sun itself - and the entire rest of the world being rightfully slaves to Kargzant, despite their protestations and delusions otherwise. I think I favour the idea that the Pentans believe the Yelm of today is really Kargzant, not the same as the Yelm who died, but this is speculation - and I don't expect it to be resolved with the publication of the Gods book, though I might be surprised. I know the Gods book draft did not touch on Sheng and his innovations, and only a little about Pentan shamanism, and I'd be surprised if this changed much (the Gods book is mostly restricted to what is necessary for a Central Genertelan - Peloria, Dragon Pass, Holy Country - campaign, with material from outside that area either because the cult is universally known (Yelm, Lodril, Ernalda etc) or for oddities of the campaign period (the Wolf Pirates have brought the worship of Ygg to the Holy Country and even Dragon Pass)). The Pentans conceive of some of the other parts of Yelm differently as well, of course. I do think they have this concept, at least intellectually, the Jenarong dynasty was probably when a lot of it was conceptualised. I think they still think of Berneel Arashagern as the fertile part of Yu-Kargzant, but I don't think they really acknowledge it much outside fertility rites of Dendara (like the Dara Happans). IMO they think of Oakfed the wildfire rather than Enverinus the tamed sacrificial fire, and contact Oakfed shamanically (and he is fairly important to them). I think one interesting idea is that in the current era, rather than just treating Yelms Shadow part as the monstrous Kazkurtum, I think at least some of them have understood it as the Black Sun, and somehow link it to the minority Solar tribe worship of the Blood Sun. I have no idea how they understand Vrimak/the Intellect part - I don't know of any Pentan traditions that seem very concerned with birds, except as enemies, or particularly with Intellect, for that matter, though the Celestial Eagle hills is a site for contacting Star Captains which might be a hint, or it might be something historic between the Lirenmador and the Veshtargos. It is also worth thinking about how the era at the end of the Second Age, when Northern Pent was plagued by the demon inhabitants of city of Senbar, changed the traditional Pentan practices. Personally I think this may have been the era when the Storm tribe practices really started, with their more effective Chaos fighting powers, but that's just speculation - I don't really know how the Storm tribe got started among the Pentans, other than its rise to being a significant minority tradition that is accepted by whole tribes seems a post-Sheng thing and response to the many defeats of the Solar tribes and their gods around that period. To magically recreate HippoGriff, so your elite warriors can all have terrifying flying steeds, of course! (the Char-Un have an aptitude for learning interesting magic from their Lunar allies, including this sort of deep mythic magic and heroquesting)

Well, those who are permitted to initiate into Yu-Kargzant join Yu-Kargzant, those who are not generally worship Kargzant. Permission to initiate is, just like Yelm in Dara Happa, primarily hereditary. Among the PHP a large proportion are considered descended from Yelm and so can initiate, among other tribes a small minority. Yes, of the 10 tribes 1 is PHP, 6 are traditional Solar, 3 Storm. So numerically, Kargzant is more worshipped. That doesn't mean that Yu-Kargzant is not the most important god - just as we still talk about Dara Happa as being Yelmic despite the Lodril peasants being more numerous. Yes, in the Guide he is referred to as Yelm in Pent. The Pentan tribes all have a very similar structure, with status organised by sub-cult and age, and it is not that different for the Storm tribes either. It is also quite similar to the structure of the Yelm cult in Dara Happa. and And I am saying that is it not exactly the same, and does not have the same magic, but the myths do have a significant amount in common, and there is a similar structure because it is cultural, not simply a cult thing. There is a lot more to it too - there is some Polaris worship, there are the Storm tribes, some Blood Sun worship has crept in, there is Eiritha worship, Hippoi, Hyalor, etc. What you probably should realise is that I am taking quite a bit of this from the draft of the Gods Book - which is not going to be exactly the same as what makes it to print soon, but is likely to be quite similar, and is much more recent than other sources - and is the closest we will get to a development of Pentan society in the near future, in that its pretty clear on Yelm/Yu-Kargzant and Kargzant worship among them. I've extrapolated a bit, - but I'm sure that the Pentans have many Yelm worshippers among them and treat Yelm as a very important god, but only a minority that are entitled to by genealogy, mostly among the PHP, they call Yelm Yu-Kargzant like the Grazers, and that Kargzant is a separate god. If you wish to not believe it until the Gods book is out, sure.

I think of the Communication Rune as Harmony without the association with unselfishness or focussing on the needs of your own community. It's not opposed to those things, but nor it guided by them - it's the mystery of Issaries that, through trade, working to make profit for yourself benefits all, learning about the other teaches you about yourself, the desire for wealth can lead to peace, etc. I don't really see the Movement connection much, but more Harmony focussed outward not inward? Issaries does have a Movement connection of course - but then, Issaries is always given the Movement rune too. I don't see the movement connection for Argan Argar, and most other trade gods have their own Movement connections (Etyries of course gets it from Issaries, Lokarnos is a movement god first and trade only as it follows from that, etc). But I think the nature of the Communication rune is one that scholars can absolutely debate about in Glorantha, and leave it as Harmony and Movement for the purposes of the magic rules, just being guided by our understanding that Runes are always interpreted in a context, and that particular character uses the Harmony rune mostly only in certain ways. I don't think most of the Rune changes described in the various rules sets usually reflect changes that the inhabitants of Glorantha notice, or would notice. Sometimes they may reflect our evolving understanding of the deity (such as Lhankor Mhy being the Orlanthi sorcery god). Worshippers have different experiences and understanding of deity. Many runes may express different cultural nuances, and not always be consistent, or make distinctions that are less important to others. Runic associations are very set and simple in game writeups, for good game design reasons, but not always so simple. To the followers of Lhankor Mhy who know him as their cultures sorcery god, they might think it appropriate to use the Law Rune, or they might find it confusing as their culture barely uses the Law Rune, or just not use it to those who don't understand it - and to other Lhankor Mhy worshippers who use more traditional magic, the Stasis Rune is more appropriate to indicate their role in keeping the continuity of culture. None are wildly wrong. Followers of Yinkin or Odayla might use the special runes they know as the Cat rune and Bear rune in their own iconography and magic - but neither denies that they represent a type of Beast, and so the Beast rune is also appropriate, and no one really gets confused about this (except scholars trying to make rigid rune classification systems). Storm Bull worshippers might know what is meant by the Eternal Battle, but it's a core mystery of their cult, not something that outsiders would be expected to understand - and so the rules give the runes as understood by outsiders, and so on. Sometimes, of course, Rune changes can reflect that the cult actually changes. The Lunars discovered (or rediscovered if you believe them) Lunar connections to deities that were previously believed to be unconnected, and some cults will now have a Moon Rune that did not before (and some people in Glorantha may believe this a distortion or corruption, and who can say for sure if they are right, but the magic works just the same). Almost all of Orlanths Mastery magic comes via the Orlanth Rex cult, which is a second age change - would Orlanth have been universally considered as having the Rune before? We have seen multiple sets of Runes for Yelm in various sources - and we also know that the understanding of the Yelm cult by the Dara Happans has changed a lot over the centuries. If those changes happen inside the context of a single game, they'd be a huge change that would be reflected in a lot of game activity, but for most games we can treat them as set and just acknowledge there is some history.

The Yu-Kargzant and Yelm cults are indeed pretty similar, but not identical - and the version in the rules book is Yu-Kargzant, because that is the one that gets substantial worship in Dragon Pass among the Grazers. The Yelm cult among the Dara Happans has no shamans, has an additional status/sub-cult called Yelm Imperator that you can only join if you are the current ruler rightful ruler of a noble land-holding office (eg one of the actual current rulers, not just a noble), and the cult cares a bit less about horses (still pretty keen on them, but not the Pure Horse Tribe obsession with them) and more about raptor birds, some of them even ride griffins. Kargzant and Yu-Kargzant are quite different though. The Pentans are still big believers in both hereditary noble blood, and the sacredness of the Pure Horse Tribe, so only a few of them get to join Yu-Kargzant and get fully access to the powers of fire. Kargzant is still the cold sun - the god they followed that led them through the Great Darkness - and only a few of them are descended from the early First Age Emperors who were able to prove that the Cold Sun became the Sun at the Dawn. Kargzant is about surviving the harsh life of the Pentan tundra. It is still the cold sun/Lightfore god, but in practice quite different to Yelmalio because they are entirely about living and fighting on horseback as nomad cavalry and herders, with not a Templar, hoplite or Sun Dome in sight - a lot of the magic is the same though. I don't think the Pentans think of Kargzant and Yu-Kargzant as different gods exactly, they think of Yu-Kargzant as Kargzant in his full power, and that only the most sacred people are entitled to worship him that way. Of course, the Dara Happan interpretation of all this is very different. The main practical difference between Yu-Kargzant among the Grazers and Yu-Kargzant among the Pentans, apart from the obvious that all the Grazers are Pure Horse Tribe but only a minority of Pentans, is associated cults - among the Grazers Yu-Kargzant is associated with Ernalda, among the Pentans Yu-Kargzant is associated with Dendara.

I mentioned Breen, and I've been told the story of him and Bradley being the inspiration for Nysalor a few times. I think Isaac Bonewits was briefly involved with the OTO around that time, who Greg of course knew (as his publisher) - and Bonewits in turn had published eg Bill Heidrick. I also know that there was a significant overlap between the occultist community and science fiction fandom (and the nascent gaming community), Berkeley wasn't that big a place. Enough, for example, that when fan and bookseller Tom Whitmore found the original handwritten Book of the Law randomly in the basement of his new house in 1984, he knew exactly what he had found, and knew more than one OTO member personaly (including Grady). And there were plenty of people with Crowley interests around outside of the OTO in the Bay Area as well. I would like to know more about the scene around that time. From here I think we seriously get into the Thellemic weeds, of little interest to anyone else. That probably has more to do with Heflin falling out with the Caliphate OTO? I think part of the confusion is that the Eroto-comatose Lucidity material was also available separately to the Arte Magica, that one chapter available as Liber CDLI of Liber Samoam, and I think was part of the syllabus of the A.'.A.'. at a much lower grade? And I think that was more widely available - was much of the A.'.A.'. material grade restricted? Not that the IX material was allegedly as secret as it should have been - I've heard stories of the 'IX Emblems and Modes of Use' document, that essentially was the IXth degree material, was available as photocopies around that era. But in any case, De Arte Magica including the Eroto-comatose Lucidiuty chapter had been published by Francis King in the book Crowley on Christ in 73?

I don't actually follow that - Yanafal does, indeed, die, and ends in the Underworld. He just is resurrected - in defiance of his initiation oaths to Humakt, so not possible unless Yanafals was Illuminated, but he was, as a result of his quest to save the Goddess, during which he kills death. This does not change Humakts relationship with Death, only Yanafals (though it does change the relationship between Humakt and Yanafals). If you haven't paid attention to anything written about Humakt in over 40 years, I think that says more about you than Humakt!

I don’t buy the idea of Humakt as passive at all. He realises that misuse of the Death rune by others is destroying the cosmos, and sets out to reclaim it. He separates the living from the dead, which is necessary if the world is going to have Death in it and yet not be destroyed, and chaps Entropy down to size where it can be eaten by Arachne Solara and integrated into existence. Zorak Zoran doesn’t care about that -he is one of those who are breaking the world by his actions, and he doesn’t care, he likes it. He enjoys the dead and the living being drawn together, ZZ uses Death but he doesn’t respect it. in separating the living and the dead, Humakt is showing ZZ is unworthy to be the true god of Death. Yelmalio proves that ZZ has lost his full power over Death by living, by refusing to be killed by one who isn’t just.

A Typhonian Call of Cthulhu would indeed be a very strange and cool game.

Greg most certainly would have known members of the OTO and other Crowley adherents in the Bay Area socially, there was a notable cross over with science fiction fandom, SCA, etc at the time. In particular the notorious Walter Breen, known pedophile at the time, and his wife Marion Zimmer Bradley (only a notorious abuser much later), were not only people who Greg (and other people associated with early RuneQuest and Glorantha) would have known of socially, particularly via the SCA (and some group houses that were social centers and the site of many parties), but were interested in Crowley - Breen was also infamous as a known book thief of Crowley rarities to local booksellers - and allegedly the original inspiration for the corrupt followers of Nysalor. i don’t think you needed to know anything about Grant to get access to that material. It was considered degree restricted at the time I think?, but Practicus grade of the A.’.A.’., which isn’t that high a degree - I think there would have been several around Berkeley at that level? Thelema Lodge in Berkeley was very active. And besides Berkeley, no need to visit Grant in England - besides Phyllis Seckler/Soror Meral’s group in Los Angeles, the Head of the OTO at the time was Grady McMurtry, who was living in Berkeley. And those restrictions were not always strictly adhered to - a few things made into antiquarian bookstores, private collections, etc. for various reasons, including deceased estates, and burglary. None of which is to say that the Cavendish theory isn’t highly plausible. But Greg plausibly had access to people knowledgeable about Crowleys work, including less public parts, as well. And definitely without any need to invoke Grant, considered a somewhat ‘out there’ and confused pretender and occult eccentric by the more orthodox, and far more numerous, ‘caliphate’ OTO that was centred in Northern California, just down the road from Chaosium, at the time.

I know very little! Somewhere, I have copies of a couple of the hand-outs Greg made, I think Greg brought a bunch of them to RQ Con Down Under or something, or MOB had some and handed them out? And I was told that Greg made them to hand out at Burning Man or similar events. I could post scans if I ever find them again, but don't know if I could find them. I do remember most of the rants - if ancient wisdom is the best wisdom, then the older the better - and what is older than trilobytes? Obviously the wisest of all.

That makes a surprising amount of sense. One that had many descendants (metaphorically at least) that the formed the original cults among more mortal races (humans and Aldryami, anyway), who later realised the connection and combined the cults.

Immanent Mastery, by Greg's definition, is not mysticism because it doesn't use mystic methods at all. It uses pretty straight forward Rune Magic mostly, even though it has mystic goals. And almost everyone outside the cult would say their goals are misguided, misunderstood, and mystically pointless - the basic idea is that, rather than doing all that Darudic dragon mysticism sitting around and meditating stuff that seems so dull, and trying to transform your soul into a draconic one, just turn your body into a draconic one instead. Surely, once your body is that of a dragon, you'll get a dragon soul naturally by no perceivable mechanism, as explained by the cults vast reams of cool sounding but opaque and nonsensical babble. Though the Exarchs consider them idiots, they do find them a potentially extremely useful type of idiot, so of course they stick around. I think the cult, especially Charismatic Wisdom, is intentionally satirical, and tells you what Greg thinks of a lot of populist New Age ideas. Does anyone remember Trilobitology, Greg's (non-Glorantha/gaming connected) satirical religion? It's got more than a bit in common with Immanent Mastery, I think.

Yeah, I think Sheng is Maximum Bad Mysticism, not just getting to be about as accomplished a mystic as you can be before he fails, but also finding pretty much the nastiest version of a magical doctrine you can get, with his 'life is slavery, torture is strength, civilisation is weakness' stuff. I think the Kralorelans are mostly pretty much on the path of very dubious mystic abuse, though, by building an Empire of temporal power on dragon magic. They have a whole system they justify to themselves, of course, reshaping the otherworld (the Summerland heaven etc) for their purposes, but is it a mystically valid system?

Well, you can be a mighty Illuminated hero, just as Krishna explains in the Bhavagad Gita - just you have to treat Illumination as a source of insight and guidance, rather than a source of cool exploits of the magic system, and that is an annoyingly tempting line to cross, and in practice somewhat subjective.

I think that Irensavalism can have connections to Illumination, but post-Arkat they are concealed and not overt. I think they are still there - but you have to know where to look (it seems obvious to me as an outsider that Talor is Illuminated, and his Apocypha contains some hints about Illumination (and is part of the modern Loskalm Canon), and it is well hidden from the laity. First, prove yourself as wise enough to learn sorcery, then explore the gnostic wisdom, only when you have fully understood Joy (and submitted to many examinations of the spirit) can you then be trusted to experiment with the secret doctrines - only then can they be sure that you will not fall to the Nysaloran temptation, but correctly approach the mystic secrets correctly. I do think that Irensavalist sorcery is substantially just sorcery, Irensavalism is mostly different from general Hrestoli methods in attitude, differing in method only at the highest levels. Something very insightful Greg said after he had been thinking about mysticism a while was that all forms of magic should ultimately have a transcendent mystic goal (the One/Kiona/First Action etc for Malkionism) if they are not to be ultimately a failure (certainly Malkioni who seek Absolute Truth), but it only counts as mysticism the magic system if you use mystic methods. Irensavalism thinks that the correct uses of sorcery are either to further understand and use the Intellect ( eg Zendamalthan school, which loves abstract intellectual sorcery (like maths) and rejects empiricism), or learn about and defeat the traps of the physical world that can undermine the spirit (eg the Furlandan School). But it is largely attitude, because sorcery itself does not distinguish intent - eg the spells of the Furlandan school that are intended for overcoming spirits that plague the community and banishing them (eg of disease or passion) can also be used to bind them and use them as magical weapons. Still, I suspect the Irensavalists think Elemental sorcery is discouraged as being of limited spiritual value, and its practical value is just another temptation of the demiurge, and there are a few other aspects of it that distinguish it. Well, it is tricky - because rules wise, Illumination is mysticism the magic system, more or less. Mystic magic = mysticism as method = Illumination, to a rough first approximation. Now, there are probably a few bits here and there that add on to that (Eastern orthodox mysticism might have access to Illumination powers not achievable by Nysaloran or draconic methods? Draconic likewise?), and there is certainly a big richness in different traditions in both what they think is the right thing to do once you are Illuminated, how you get there, what other forms of magic they use (the only 'pure' mystics are maybe the guys who just sit and meditate all day and do no other magic at all), and so on. The real trick to understanding Illumination via the Nysalor cult is understanding that Nysalor and Arkat, according to game mechanics, use the same mystic methods, it is the attitude and surrounding traditions that differ. And the same, more or less, for all the other mystics too. And part of that is that, yes, Illumination can be very useful for being a munchkin who accumulates power, and uses the transcendance of the world to justify any arbitrarily awful behaviour, and can lead to egotism and callousness. It's also notable in real world mysticism (not all of which Greg would classify as mysticism), egotism and narcissism etc are not exactly unknown among real world would be mystics. Failed mystics are terribly dangerous people—and this applies in the real world too, the madness around the downfall of the Osho/Rajneeshee cult, for example—but of course far more so in a world where the magic powers gained from it are very real. The big takeaway from mentioning Arkat in the Nysalor writeup, which I think is essential, is that there are people who see this temptation clearly, and believe that Illumination has spiritual worth but misuse must be guarded against. Nysaloran Illumination (at least in its modern, post-Nysalor, form) differs from other forms of Illumination in only one fundamental way - it has a method of easy teaching and broad transmission. Most other forms of Illumination (eg Arkati, Eastern orthodox forms) think this is a terrible idea, and that teaching random people mystic insight who are not otherwise prepared for it is a terrible idea. The problem with Nysalorism as a form of Illumination is around its attitudes and organisation. Greg has said Nysalorism is a failed form of mysticism. But I don't think that's because there is anything particularly broken about their form of Illumination - I think it's because, without useful teachings about how to prepare people for mysticism, or what to do with it other than break free of the constraints of the gods teachings, it is a recipe for mass production of failed mystics, even if a few may grope their way to mystic success. Maybe it would be different when Nysalor was alive, but then again, maybe not that much - it does seem that they didn't have much of a plan for acquiring greater mystic insight beyond 'hang out with Nysalor personally', and the idea that your cool mystic insights and powers could be used in battle to defeat your enemies seems to have been accepted by everyone in the Bright Empire from Nysalor down. The Lunars certainly think themselves smarter than this, and have a very different system in some ways (once you have become sufficiently magical, just retire to the Moon once you are ready for further mystic insight!), but it's very easy to argue that they are also in the 'mass production of failed mystics' business. They do understand the problem in a way, and call it Occlusion, but they have also allowed the system that is supposed to guard against it to become corrupted to mundane political purpose, and encouraged the exploitation of mystic insight for mundane/magical power (the Original Sin of failed mystics), just a little more restricted than Nysalorism. So the Empire has corrupted the mystic system - and the drastic efforts by JarEel, Great Sister, and others to fix this basic problem is the core of the Lunar Empire Hero Wars story, IMO. FWIW, I think that this basic theme - mysticism is fine, but using it for munchkin purposes both totally works, and leads to failure as a mystic, is a consistent theme through most of Gloranthan mysticism, including Nysalor, the Lunars, the EWF, Sheng, etc. So Darius, when you keep going on about Illumination being just a recipe for munchkinism - you aren't 100% wrong, but you are 50% wrong, and that cuts so much of the richness, both in terms of how it relates to real mysticism, AND in how it drives cool Gloranthan gaming and metaplot themes.

Sorry, no. Black and white thinking like that is false in real life and false in Gloranthan Illumination. Indeed. And if you really think that obeying the laws and scruples of your society is so important that you must stamp out and destroy the things that allow you to question them... Ompalam invites you to subscribe to his newletter...

My favourite model for an allied or bound spirit is Loiosh, Vlad Taltos's familiar in the series by Steven Brust, a continual supplier of snark and sarcasm. But that's just one of many ways to make allied or bound spirits full of annoying personality. Humakti allied spirits that are continually advocating to cast Sword Trance, because it's the only time they think their master has their priorities correct. Troll allied spirits that are constantly castigating their masters for being insufficiently violent and murderous. Or constantly reminding them to do things for their mother. Lhankor Mhy spirits sniffing disdainfully at this adventuring nonsense, and snarking about how its ruining their academic career. So many ways.

I just love Chaotic Mostali as potential villains. I don't want Krarsht to be the only Chaotic force they revere, but she is the most obvious vector, tunneling into Mostali territory directly bypassing their defenses - and not just in the Tunnelled Hills, but I've also put Chaos Mostali beneath the ruins of the Clanking City, and in the parts of the Jords Eye complex that have not fully been reclaimed since the underground wars against Krarsht there (IMG Jords Eye is now a functional city, but the parts that were too Chaotic just got walled off - and then Sheng busted the place up and large chunks of it are now a dangerous mega-dungeon complex). Particularly good villains for a gonzo 13th Age game, I use Derroes as Chaos Mostali, they look like Mostali but their brains are scrambled beyond repair. And they love not just Krasht but Pocharngo (why stick with nilmergs and gobblers when there is a whole array of crazy chaotic things to make?), Vivamort (other mortals are just raw materials), Thanatar, Primal Chaos, wild chaos sorcery, etc. Also, the mysterious and not yet described Xamalki, servants of Xamalk the Chaos god of Darkness, who are also burrowing creatures, and we know exist beneath Slon, and were major Chaos foes in the West (they attacked Luathela!) in the Great Darkness. They are probably Chaos foes of the Mostali still in Slon, and from there spread their influence to other Mostali areas. And in the East, dwarves are part of the armies of the antigods, so associated with all sorts of Chaotic and other bad behaviour. And the Mostali can sometimes magically 'tunnel' between cities, so Chaos Dwarves can turn up anywhere - the Tunnelled Hills is just a likely major stronghold. I like the idea of Krarshti Chaos Mostali trying to masquerade as lumpy ugly children, thank you Peter!

I thought that one was just obvious. Chalana Arroy is multiple cults melded together - Chalana Arroy = Xemela Arroin, which is probably Theyalans recognising their 'White Lady' in a Western hero cult and a Fronelan elf cult and smushing them together into one cult. Happens early because they have a tradition of being wanderers. And Eurmal only joins the Lightbringer Quest in the West in some versions, when he is rescued from being executed by the inhabitants of Sorcerer Town. Which would mean that though we think of the Lightbringers Quest as mostly a central Genertelan myth about Orlanth and Yelm, that Orlanth is almost the only one of the Seven who can really claim a Theyalan origin - Chalana is a gestalt deity from mostly western deities, Lhankor Mhy and Issaries were originally Western gods, while Trickster is Universal Eurmal may originally be a Western version of Trickster... the Lightbringer Quest is mostly a Western Myth cycle, Orlanth just (typically) thinks it is all about him. I'm sure there is a Western version of the story of how Worlath and Ehilm realised they were idiots and agreed to behave more like responsible Erasanchula, and the Compromise is actually the Erasanchula submitting to Law and Logic.

Yes. Which generally implies YarGan was associated with one or more of those groups, the Waertagi most obviously. Got overthrown half a continent away at Nida, in a dramatic reversal involving the Mostali - and we know different things (eg becoming mingled with the Vingkotlings) happened to the Kachasti other places, and there are plenty of areas (including the other end of the Janube) where Brithini survived without significant challenge from the Vadeli, you are trying to turn a remote local myth into a universal one. Well, in the sense we can't prove a negative in conspiracy theory, so we can't absolutely prove that myths that don't mention the Vadeli at all are secretly about them. But we actually have a myth cycle about the Waertagi and Brithini on the Janube that makes sense without the Vadeli and less sense if you introduce them (why are they messing about at the wrong end of the Janube despite that huge hostile city at the other? Why are they helping the Brithini?), so this seems to be a theory that only works if no one pulls out Occams razor. That, I am not so sure about. The Waertagi are generally associated with the sea gods, a minority even with Wachaza, and that really doesn't argue against monster gods that demand sacrifice (like Magasta). And they are generally represented as having some members who are more like Deep Ones than humans (perhaps with a fair bit of overlap with the Wachaza war clans?) - it is easy to see how a monstrous cannibal god who demands sacrifice and lurks under the water is associated with the Waertagi, but neither sacificial rites nor water seem to indicated Vadeli much. And YarGa.n seems to offer sanctuary to any sorcerers, which would seem to indicate that they weren't Vadeli (who would oppose Kachasti or Brithini). Plus YarGan is only associated with blue people (no Red warriors or brown workers or Yellow leaders), is not associated with Chaos, or allied with Mostali, etc. - you seem to be pretty much entirely hanging the dominance of the Vadeli off the idea that there is more than one kind of blue sorcerer, so it is a possibility.