davecake

The quote from Cults of Terror I don't think so myself. Nysalor born in 375, I think Arkat is Illuminated some time between then and him arriving in Seshnela in 400. Plenty of time for Nysalor missionaries to have reached Brithos via Waertagi ships, which were actively criss-crossing the oceans at that point. But it is possible.

Any if you look at the Major pantheons chapter of the Guide, any cult with the same Runes is basically a variant of Ancestor Worship. All revering Grandfather Mortal to some extent, but under different names. So Daka Fal among the Praxians Old Man and Old Woman among the Hsunchen Iste in the East Isles Ebe the wild man in Kralorela Darhudan among the Orlanthi and others elsewhere. There are regional variations, but they mostly amount to local 'and in our culture, we usually worship <X> as well'. The Kralorelans usually also revere Aptanace the son of Ebe, and one of his hundreds of children who are all founders of crafts or professions, and so their lineages tend to be associated with hereditary crafts. The Hsunchen are also descended from animals and animal gods, who are worshipped as well. etc. In First Age Seshnela (and almost certainly many other places), they mixed sorcerous Malkioni worship with Ancestor Worship, which was very effective magic if your ancestors were powerful sorcerers you get advice and assistance from. But it's all functionally the one tradition, going back to the first Death, coexisting with some extra stuff. There are probably many variants with various families who mix ancestor worship with their own family traditions - sometimes effectively, sometimes less so (it helps a lot if the extra gods you worship are also your ancestors so worshipped as part of the same ritual) And there are non-Humans - trolls, baboons, etc. Sometimes their runes are a bit different. Sometimes their magic interacts a bit different. Still basically the same.

Yes, but I figure that whether you conceptualise your Ancestor Worship as being worship of Daka Fal or some other ancestral deity, the effects are pretty much the same in practical and/or game terms - you can summon your ancestors, not anyone elses. And you aren't particularly compelled to cooperate, trust, even care about other ancestor worshippers you are not related to. This is much the same whether they are part of your species or not - but they are much less likely to be related if they aren't the same species! In Prax, Daka Fal shamans among the Praxians may tend to cooperate, as they often have some ancestral link been families. But between species, they don't care . And they tend to think of themselves as revering their own ancestors, not Daka Fal the god, except indirectly. (thought of course, ancestor worshippers tend to understand each other better - but as what they understand is that they owe each other nothing, that doesn't always help)

Shamanhood comes straight from KL, but game mechanic wise, in RQ3 priestess shamans who wanted Ancestor Worship spells needed to initiate into that as a separate tradition. This was usually conceptualised as troll ancestor worship being through Kygor Litors daughter Korasting, rather than directly through KL or through Daka Fal. This is more or less how it is in RQG too - KL gets one Ancestor Worship spell as an Associated Cult (Summon Specific Ancestor) but must initiate separately to get the other good stuff.

My understanding is that he was Illuminated before everything really started up, by elves in Brithos, as a youth. HIs first betrayal was leaving the Brithini for become a Hrestoli Man-Of-All, which (barring the possibility he was briefly killed and as resurrected etc) happened long before his first true death attacking Kartolin. While a terrible betrayal by Brithini standards, I don't think they have spirits of reprisal or anything. Of course, he gave up immortality for it.

You are assuming that the question is a purely magical and metaphysical one. No, it's a people question. If you want to reach out to Orlanth (or whoever) and get a Divination, that is a different question - but Divination isn't always helpful, and is essentially a tool humans use to guide their decision making. But in practice, you aren't asking the God, you are asking a person. A priest, a chief, even yourself. What justifies ignoring a LIghtbringer Summons? You decide. Who decides if a person is a member of a Lightbringer cult? Well, have they had the Ban spell cast on them? Are they able to participate in worship? Are there consequences for you disagreeing with your priests or others? Are you willing to risk your own honour and relationship with the gods because you feel their authority is false? Think about the many stories involving people being manipulated by, or framed for crimes by, corrupt authority figures who are able to do something that is clearly unjust to the hero, but not to others. Think about that dynamic as the core story here.

Yes. It's probably known to many initiated into specific Arkat cults - but they are sworn not reveal it, and largely disbelieved (and probably killed) if they do. And most Sartarites do not know anybody that is known to be in any Arkat cult, and think they are weirdoes whose beliefs can't be trusted if they do. They know he changed cults, think it was a big betrayal, but leaving a cult and dealing with the spirits of reprisal isn't unknown, often just unpleasant. Maybe they think Arkat did not have his sword shatter after leaving Humakt because his one sword was legendarily Unbreakable? Maybe they think he must have been attacked by Flint Slingers and Wind Fists when he left Orlanth, but figure he survived the attack (as many, including many 7 Mothers converts, do). Maybe they just figured as a Hero he just took it on the chin and got lucky? Or dealt with it by unique means, as heroes tend to do?

outed as Chaotic is the important part. Illuminated or not is a detail. If they have proof, they have many options, some of which should see them no longer regarded as a true Lightbringer (for example, a senior priest could Ban them), and no one will quibble too much on timing. But if they have no proof and are not believed, then they have a difficult choice. Difficult choices are bad for them, but good for the game.

Take the idea of Illumination out of it, and replace it will 'someone they have reason to distrust' and you have your answer. So, If Light bringers identify someone they distrust, but that person (also a lightbringer) hits them with a light bringer summons before they strike, what are the options? Honour lies in your deeds, not your enemies. If you do not honour your own words and do the right thing, you are dishonourable, regardless of what others do. And your enemies honour is also in their deeds. There are always issues where being honourable forces you to make difficult choices, no Chaos or Illumination or even evil intent required - just dealing with people whose idea of honour may be different to yours, or whose priorities are very different to yours. Illumination is almost irrelevant. An Illuminate can still be honourable, betraying an honourable person is dishonourable regardless of their relationship with their god, which is mostly their business. Have they broken a law? Now, if the Illuminate is known to have committed an actual crime, that is a different thing. If you know they have consorted with Chaos, very different. But you didn't say this was true. Yes! A code of honour forcing you to make difficult choices, between your honour and what you desire or what seems most sensible, is one of the great drivers of drama across human culture. There are difficult choice, and they have consequences - not just for making the 'wrong' choice, but for making the 'right' one. Embrace it!

If you ask an Illuminate, really just one. Or as many types as there are Illuminates. Answers in between misunderstand Illumination. Not quite true, as there are rules for HeroQuest (and there were rules for RQ3, though they were not very different). If you look at the two sets of rules, and say 'if you take the HQ rules as a basis for how you would update the RQ2 rules for RQG', you will end up with something very similar to the draft rules from the GoG draft. Which is more or less me saying Illuminates have the power to develop opposed Runes, and to master their Passions, and otherwise its a lot like RQ2. From a game world point of view, very much the same. Yes, I think a lot of people on the forums pretty much have ideas about Illumination that come from a small number of old core Glorantha texts (mostly cults of terror) plus gaming experiences and extrapolation, and essentially almost no knowledge of actual mysticism etc. Greg always tied in back to real world mysticism. Two decades ago all the discussions I had with him started with 'step one, read the Yoga sutras of Patanjali'. HIs ideas evolved, but always coming back to real world mysticism. Yes, way, way, way off. Greg essentially considered himself Illuminated, I think. I think Greg thought mysticism could be used as an excuse by the immoral, could derange the unprepared, but had every bit of the spiritual value for those who fully approached it in the right spirit of selflessness and understanding. To see 'beyond good and evil' as the same as 'amoral' is clueless. The Bhavagad Gita isn't a bad starting point. (and also note the Vadeli, who actually are all sociopaths, are not generally linked with Illumination, it is largely irrelevant to them)

Please explain how you imagine that conversation going if they are trying to exclude, say, Argrath or one of his close supporters. Or a senior warlock of the SMU. Or the Tribal King, for that matter, who actually outranks the Storm Voices etc and probably physically controls access to the holy site. "But I am your chief, and I tell you that these are the true teachings of Orlanth. I am not bothered by the spirits of retribution because I am honourable and righteous. Now leave or face my wrath." *casts Command Priest* (you seem to have entirely missed that the Orlanth Rex was introduced just to make sure the rulers out rank the priests in these situations - though admittedly it was originally to stop the priests introducing the mysticism stuff (in EWF), they didn't really anticipate centuries later a king wanting to make everyone mystics largely for strategic reasons) Arkat hated Nysalor/Gbaji, and largely because of Chaos. He absolutely did not hate Illuminates or want to kill them, considering many of his followers were actually Illuminated, and they consider themselves the 'epitome of the Light Side of Illumination'. Literally, read the section about Arkat on pg 89 of Cults of Terror, and if you don't believe it is essentially correct, then you are talking about an alternate Glorantha. Which you usually are on this topic, but you should acknowledge it. That is not how the Dark and Light side works, as they are defined on page 89 of Cults of Terror. If you deny anything written there is true (such as the Light and Dark Sides), it's an alternate Glorantha, or at least one that uses completely different terminology and mostly is at odds with what Greg, and others, have written about it. This is not a way to encourage a useful discussion. Except there being no evidence of a resurgence outside Ralios I know of. Certainly they don't seem to have inconvenienced the Nysaloran resurgence under the Lunars in the least. Nor do they seem to interfere when an Imperial revival of Illumination drives the EWF out of Peloria, or indeed, at any point in history after the Autarchy is defeated by the God Learners. So, what evidence of this resurgence is there outside Ralios? (and of course, in Ralios they are a squabbling bunch more opposed to each other than anything else) Argrath sees value in not abusing the system, sure, but what is abuse? An Illuminate makes their own decision as to what constitutes abuse. Argrath seems, largely, to have decided that Chaos is abuse, but a lot of other fairly morally dubious things are merely expedient. Including bringing back Sheng whose mystic path is based in large part on slavery and torture. And even on Chaos, Argrath seems fairly flexible compared to the average Orlanthi (given he allies to Seven Mothers cultists like the Fazzurites as needed). Only if they use them in an abusive way. Who is going to denounce a Larnsting for knowing too much movement magic? A warlock for bringing multiple cults together in the SMU? Someone for using dragon magic to save the clan from a dragon? An Illuminate doesn't have to do anything. The power of cultural control for an Illuminate becomes other people, rather than the gods. And the Illuminate is just as able to wield that power as anyone (indeed, in the Lunar Empire Illuminates have a near monopoly on the highest levels of power).

If some of those remained, they would be ancient magical beings - I don't think they are able to reproduce, at least since the OOO died, and I think most of the remaining ones, if not all, died with him. I suspect its a thing for your game - if you want some to exist, have them. What mostly remains is their magic - followers of the Nightcult are able to use rune magic to transform between races temporarily. That's a good question. King of Sartar, in the CHDP, suggests its due to Broyans betrayal of the City of Wonders, but the CHDP is an in-world source that may well be very biased pr speculative - it's not clear why the Kitori would be against Broyan, as both of them are representing pre-Belintar powers. It's also possible that the demon that kills Broyan isn't representing the KItori themselves. I doubt it - the Kitori are still weak, and the Volsaxi and the Sun Dome Templars are still around, and still probably prepared to smash any attempt at Kitori resugence. There are a mere 5,000 of them, vs 273,000 Hendriki and the Sun Domers - the Kitori have very little chance of recapturing their former dominance of the area any time soon. The do still have ties to the Only Old One, but as the OOO is dead this just amounts to keeping his cult and what is left of his magical secrets alive. The House of Black Arkat in the Troll Woods keeps the trollish/Darkness Arkati sorcery tradition alive in Kethaela (it is surely still alive in Ralios as well, though may differ there), is within Kitori langds, and is associated with the Nightcult sub-cult of the Argan Argar cult - most of the Arkati are Argan Argar initiates and Nightcult members first. The Temple of Black Arkat, and the House of Black Arkat, are different places, but both are Arkati sorcery strongholds, and probably closely connected to the NIghtcult. The House is in Kitori lands, and its location is probably secret. The Temple is in Esrolia, near the Building Wall and Arrowmound, and is the fortress of the fortified city of Arkat's Hold. I think they mostly trade troll goods to humans and vice versa. They formerly (prior to Tarkalors defeat of them) got rich by controlling the trade route between Sartar and Esrolia, mostly controlling all the trade from Sartar that used to go via the Marzeel river to Karse, but that was centuries ago.

They can be overruled by a senior priest, which for Orlanthi usually includes the Clan Chief, or tribal King - and no, suspecting the chief or king of being an Illuminate is NOT enough to over rule them.. And of course there is the practical difficulty of enforcing it. Arkat, for example, would almost certainly kill anyone who tried. Arkat hates Dark side Illuminates, but likes some others, and unfortunately there is no reliable way to tell which is which. And the Arkat cult may be protecting certain heroquest paths, but they are a tiny minority of a tiny minority - by the time some Illuminate outside their own ranks is notable enough for the Arkat cult to notice, they are likely also too powerful for them to do much about it. After the First age, what do we see of the Arkat cult? They get their butts kicked by the God Learners, badly. They entirely fail to notice, or are able to do nothing about, a resurgence of troubling Illumination use by the later God Learners. They get repressed, along with several other forms of Illumination, by the Dara Happans, probably all but wiped out across Peloria, before Arkat-hostile forms of Illumination make a resurgence with the Lunars. They survive in little more than a few scattered and secretive schools almost everywhere outside Ralios - and inside Ralios they are a fragmented squabbling bunch. The Arkati are not a major threat to rogue Illuminates unless you want them to be in your game. But as a real threat to Illuminates Glorantha-wide, or anywhere outside Ralios even? No.

I’ve always felt this as well. Time enough for a better version later, but why would you want to remove something that is fun and playable and being used by people to have fun and in their actual games? If you don’t like something, replace it with something better - and if you want to make it really better, reuse or incorporate as much as you can of stuff that people find enjoyable about what was there before. Being ‘correct’ by some arbitrary, fallible standard is one of the less important metrics.

Well, that kind of leaves it open for us to make up Talor’s secret mystic doctrines. Which is exactly what I was hoping for. So that’s what you’d have in the Talor apocrypha that form part of the sacred texts of New Loskalm? I kind of like the idea of Talor introducing a Sufi strain of thought into the much more straight Platonism.

While that’s not something I’d previously considered (as they are referred to as literal weapons), its one of those ideas that, regardless of its ‘truth’, almost certainly is believed by some. Ive been thinking of them more as representing three different wargods - probably Humakt (sword), Babeester Gor (axe), and Vorthan (flail). Sounds plausible. As does it being one of the times his sense of humour fails him. My theory is that both were Illuminated and they fell out over how to deal with that in their spiritual legacy, but that’s just because I have particular ideas about what I’d like Talors legacy to be.

The Telendarian school is the ancient exploring magic of the Viymorni, inherited by the Vadeli - so it predates Hrestolism (though was popularised with them through Akem), and it is probably considered Chaotic for Vadeli connections. It is mostly travel and disguise magic, though includes Tap POW. It is very handy if you want to sneak about and steal the magical secrets of others, which I think is where it’s bad reputation in the First Age and later comes from largely? I don’t think it has much do with Tarumath, which is more ‘Storm worship meets Nysalor’. I have quite a few ideas about Telendarian magic.

What do we know of Talor’s story?

I think in most of central Genertela, Arroin is regarded as a skills based sub-cult largely for people with limited magical aptitude. There are probably a few cult members who have, for example, lost a lot of POW due to divine intervention or Soul Waste. I think in Fronela, where the Arroin cult originates and it might be the mainstream version of the cult, learning some sorcery as part of the Arroin healing arts is regarded as quite normal. There will still be many Arroin cultists who don't know any (for a start, some won't be smart enough), and rely on skills alone. But many will have have huge knowledge of healing plants, and of Alchemy - and that sort of knowledge is pretty much the same sort of things many philosophers/sorcerers would study anyway. And they get some good healing magic without using Rune Magic and worshipping gods, that would be against orthodox (or New Hrestolism either). The cult enjoys good relations with elves, too, which can be quite handy when there are lots of elves nearby. Slightly awkward for such sorcerers that all the good Arroin magic (including Healing 6) is spirit magic, though. There are ways to deal with that issue, though.

My version of Aldryami are not anti-animal, but Aldryami nations are all (more or less) made up of one biome, mostly different kinds of forest. They can (not much since the first age though) get into nasty ecological wars with neighbouring biomes, but they are happy with animal life native to their biome (which won’t include most humans, but can accept some, especially hsunchen). And a single biome can include both green and brown elves, but may be strict about which tree species (and corresponding elves) are accepted. The simple division into green/brown/yellow is just a misguided human misunderstanding.

There is also the sorcery tradition of Xemela, mother of Hrestol, who is famous as a healer (she defeated a plague). And one of the major sorcerous traditions of Loskalm is the Furlandan school, that is largely focussed on hygiene and fighting disease (though also drifts into dealing with other malign spirits). These healing traditions could easily have some overlap with Chalana Arroy, and especially Arroin.

Oh yeah, right. The Grotarons aka the Maidstone Archers, strong contenders for most ridiculous race in Glorantha, are said to worship the Sable-toothed mountain mammoth as the basis for their culture. But no one else has seen one, and magicians think it is some sort of spirit animal visible only to the Grotarons. My dumbest theory is that the sabre-toothed mountain mammoth is a species closely related to the Snuffleupagus.

I prefer to think Jar-Eel has better judgement than Cersei Lannister, so Phargentes the younger isn't quite Joffrey. But there are other inspirations available - a young Mordred. A 17 year old version of St Alia of the Knife. Or any number of books about the young prince with deadly enemies at court, with the PCs as his trusted companions.

I love Heist type games. There are certainly elements of this within my own Tarsh game.

I'd echo Nick - sure, you could have a campaign of standard foot soldiers, that can have its own fun (there is a rich tradition of drama, and especially comedy, involving grunts in the ranks), but no need to limit yourselves to that. Be commanders, or an elite team, or given special prophecies from the gods or Jar-Eel or Great Sister. A few ideas of things to explore - if you want something a bit murky and morally and politically ambiguous, there is a lot of issues around the Tarsh civil war, and trying to win back the support of the Fazzurites to the Imperial side (who were, after all, certainly raised as Empire loyalists), which would mean manipulating and undermining Phargentos for the good of the Empire. - or if you would rather your PCs stay away from the core of politics, make them involved in trying to win all the other potential players in the conflict - Ethilrist, Cragspider, Dragonnewts, Delecti, etc - over to the Lunar side. - or act deep cover in Sartar and try to build up internal opposition to Argrath (which shouldn't be too hard) s - or you could end up being part of Jar-Eel and Great Sisters plan to get rid of the current Empire, perhaps working to neutralise other opponents of it.