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Then why play with a game that allows parries? What I think is going to happen is that a lot of player characters are going to take a special hit and drop, especially if you use random armor. Realistically yes. Uh, no. Basically the difference in mass isn't the issue, it's the muscle required to move that mass. It might be 3 to 4 times heavier, but that also means that ti moves much slower. Slash rolls weapon damage twice, crush rolls damage bonus twice. In effect they are similar to the impale, which means a much lower chance of bouncing off a shield. What dent?, shields break. Shields are wood, or wood with a thin metal facing. In real life most don't survive a good fight. You can hack or smash off bits. Worse still you might get some boards to split, or knock loose the arm strap. You don't need a big heavy weapon to do it either. It's just that big heaver weapons are better at it and can do it quicker. Both in real life and in game. Someone with a dagger (1d4+2+db) is going to have a tough time hacking up a 12 point shield, but someone with a harberd (3d6+db) will find it much easier. Still if a character is skilled, strong, and/or has some good magic, they can really go to town on a shield or parrying weapon. We once had someone armed with a dagger (and Bladesharp 4) trash an oppoent's 2H spear before closing in. 1d4+2+1d4+4 (average 11 points), can whittle down a spear in about 4 rounds, and might be easier that trying to close. The tactic is even nastier is the opponent has some special weapon or sheild that they don't want to loose.

Okay, PM me an emaila dress and I'll send it too you. It's pretty much MERP style races done up in RQ3 format, with previous experience tables. Fair Enough. Sounds like you just need to do up a spread sheet that list's each spell and an RQ equivalent. Then you wouldn't have to do it on the fly. BTW, are you just using the MERP stuff or the full RoleMaster system (with more spell lists and character options)? Oh, and are you toning down some of the Magic items? MERP/RM is a lot like D&D with everybody having lots of magic.

That sucks. I'd much rather go with the RQ3 method where the special would be an impale that might be stopped by the shield (and get stuck in it, reducing the ability to use it). Not reallly. It's more about how much force you can put behind the blow. A big tough warrior with a mace is far more likely to knock a man down that granny using a halberd. Depends on if you use the slash and crush rules or not. To reduce it armor points. In RuneQuest 3 parrying weapons that take more damage than their AP rating must reduce their AP rating by one point. But, if you attack the parrying weapon (or shield) then all the damage in excess of it's AP rating reducing the weapon's AP rating. So if I attack your AP 12 shield and do 20 points, the remaining 8 points comes off the shields armor rating, reducing it to AP 4, making it much easier to get past it, in the future. If I attack it again for another 8 points you no longer have a shield. That's why you attack shields. That's the big difference between RQ3 and RQ2, shields in RQ3 are not indestructible.

Yup. I did on something a long time ago where I have multiplier for various metals, real and legendary. Yes, but aluminum fired form a light bow is a lot more forgiving than a war arrow fired form a 150 pound warbow. My point being that medieval archers would probably be a little more reluctant to reuse a war arrow than a modern archer would with a target arrow. Yup. Again, it why reusing an arrow in combat (or even on a hunt) is probably not the best idea. I mean if you didn't have any other options, it would be better than getting killed, but it's a last resport. No, it wasn't. Mail could be penetrated. Plate not so much. Usually with plate the arrow had to find a spot that plate didn't cover. Such spots always existed as the wearer had to be able to move, but armorers did their best to try an minimizes the exposed areas over time. Not to mention the mud. Or the French belief that victory was their is only they were Chivalrous enough. Yeah, even the best armor isn't much help when your horse falls on top of you. Even minor wounds and scratches are going to make the horse (or people for that matter) very unhappy, and more difficult to control. And the mount gets to see and hear what's happening around it, too.

Yes,m exact doing damage equal to someone's SIZ in RQ3 is tough. The average guy with a sword does 1D8+1+1d4 and the average SIZ is 13. By contrast in Pendragon the average person does 4D6 damage. Depends on if you are attacking the opponent or his shield. Plus there is the case that if the opponent fails in his attack roll and you make your parry roll, you get to roll damage on his weapon, which isn't as tough as a shield. Actually it means far fewer blows will get through. An impaling hit that would have does 2d8+2+1d4 (average 13.5) and gotten something past a shield, reducing the shield a point, and maybe hitting an unarmored area, becomes a normal hit for 1D8+1+1d4 (average 8 ) that bounces harmlessly off the shield. Story, it was only called that in Stormbringer. Basically it was that a master (90%) with a meapon could do multiple parries, each at -20% from the last. It was called a riposte because a master could follow a parry with a riposte, basically another atttack at -20% cumulative to his skill. THis meant that two masters would ususally end up exchanging a half dozen attacks during a melee round. For Example, Al, and Bill are fighting with Swords. Al has a Sword skill of 95%, and Bill 90% Al has a higher DEX and so go first, rolling a 78. Bill parries with a 22, and ripostes, with a 69. Al tired to block the attack and parries with an 83. Al then tried to riposte, but needs to roll a 75 or less (his 95% skill -20%), and barely succeeds with a 75. Bill now tried to parry again (his second parry, so -20% for 70%) and squeaks by with another 69. Bill ripostes again, at 70% (his second attack) and success with a 16. Al now tired to parry for a third time(at -40% for 55%) succeeding with a 53! Al attacks again (his third attack so -40%) but fails with a 67, ending the exchange. The rule would be great for a swashbuckling campaign or for Lightsaber duels in Star Wars. A GM could also alter the flat -20% to a value basedon the weapons used. A rapier might have a lower penalty than, say a warhammer. I can imagine. I did up a MERP/RQ3 campaign a long time ago.I Had to make a few adjustments. I still have the RQ3 chargen stuff I did up for the campaign too, where I attempted to Tolkien-ize the races. If I were you I'd drop the MERP spell lists and just use RQ3 sorcery, probably with the Sandy Peterson variant. Most MERP Spell list can be converted to a single spell or two, with the higher level spells just meaning higher intensity. Elves could use Spirit Magic, with High Elves maybe using a sort of hybrid, by swiping the Lunar magic rules to let them alter spirit magic like it was sorcery.

LOL! By that point it's not so much a tough fight but a loss. They were the same group who when a character lost an arm, looked at me as if I had actually taken off the player's arm. They were so shocked it was actually hysterically funny. It's like when you play a game with children and don't let them win.

And arrows with harded tips designed to punch through plate. Not quite. In Glorantha (only) Iron is considered to protect 50% more. This is in Book 5: Glorantha on page 16 under Rune Metals. It seems to be Glorantha specfic though, as the increased vlaues were never used in any RQ3 or BRP supplement, notable Vikings and Land of the Ninja, both of which would be using iron and steel. That can be risky. Unlike modern arrows, older ones are made of wood, and might not be safe to use again depending upon the forces imparted on them by thew bow, or by striking the target. It is possible to have an arrow be weakened enough to break apart if reused. Note that I'm talking about wooded arrows being fired from high draw weight bows and striking hard targets. Maybe. Maybe not. Most current data indicates that arrows couldn't penetrate plate armor and that the longbow's performance doesn't live up to it's reputation. That said, the chance of an arrow finding an eyeslit, mount, or other unpleasant spot can't be ignored. I suspect the real danger of bows is in mass. One bowman probably won't kill an armored knight, but a couple of dozen are probably going to ruin somebody's life.

Mmm, maybe. While Glorantha certinaly set it up that way, the stats for 8 point plate have found there way into most of ther BRP games that have medevial plate, so it's probably as close to official as we have. That said, I'd probably consider reverse engineering armor values from Pendragon for a start (so about half Pendragon), then maybe adding a point or two to the metal armors to match up with RQ3 values. THus is mail is worth 10 points in Pendragon, it would start off as 5 in RQ, and have 2 added to it to reach the 7 listed for RQ3. THat would make Plate (16 in KAP) 16/2=8+2- 10 point, Gothic Plate 18/2=9+2= 11 which might be good. It might. It depends on the style of armor. Some forms of plate over covered the front, especially on the legs, and could be quite vulnerable from the sides or back. Some of the latter suits of armor had optional pieces too, and a soldier might decide to leave out certain bits to reduce his weight. A mounted soldier is more likey to get hit in the legs than a footman, and doesn't have to worry about the weight of the armor as much. Plus once firearms started to get good, the armor became less useful. Unlike in RQ with lineal damage, in real life a bullet that penetrates armor probably has enough energy left over to inflict a serious wound. Give him time. He is still getting the hang of his crossbow that shoot longbow arrows. :)

Yup, although some versions of BRP do have some heavier bows. It's only for Bronze in Glorantha. If you look at Fantasy Earth, the values are for standard iron and steel armor and weapons. RQ3 Vikings, and Land of the Ninja show that. Yes, but that comes up quite often (1/5th of the time). Of coruce magic changes this quite a bit too, but that's not something we can compare with real arrow performance. At least I haven't met an archer who knows speedart yet. In Glorantha, yes, expect that in Glorantha there would be magic that could alter that, such as speedart or protection. In other settings, the armor values are not for bronze. Yup. Yup, again assuming Glorantha. Those number's I'm fine with. It's the 20% impale chance that I find suspect. With two arrows per round, an archer has a very good chance of getting an impale before an opponent can close the distance. This makes missile weapons (and other impaling weapons) much more effective against armor than in real life. Yeah, and pretty much automatically take out the hit location struct. Which probably kills the target half the time, and probably takes out a limb the rest of the time. Not that there is much someone can do about them.

So it would be lighter that what we'd see on a battlefield, with considerably lighter and thinner arrows.

Yeah, RQ3 knockback rule was something of a mixed blessing. Under the right circumstances, light fighting along a wall or cliff, it could be devastating, otherwise not so much. I think Pendragon's knockdown rule might be more useful. Instead of being knocked back the target has to make a DEX roll or fall down, dropping his weapon. Since RQ3 critical hits did max damage and bypassed worn armor, and impales did double damage, most specials and crits did slip past a normal block. And since in RQ3 parries against unsuccessful attacks damage the attacking weapon, you get similar results to the BGB matrix. BTW, you may want to be careful about using the reposte option for multiple parries, as RQ has special rules for splitting skills over 100%. It can kinda get wild, especially with RQ magic. That would depend on what sort of game I was trying to run. If I wanted something with a more swashbuckling flair, I'd use the riposte rule from Strombringer/BGB, probably reduce or eliminate magic, and possibly tie weapon damage more closely to success level (i.e. no beheaded someone with just a standard success). If I were running a late medeival camapign with late peroid armor, I'd expand the armor tables a bit, adding a few new types of plate (Gothic, Milanese, allow for proofed armor and so on).If I wanted something closer to Ancient Rome, Greece, or Glorantha I'd probably use RQ3 as is. The BGB is more of toolkit, full of rules taken from various BRP related RPGs, and helps if you want to customize things to better fit a particular setting. For instance, if a GM wanted to run a Celtic King Arthur campaign, where Arthur's Warriors are all heroes with great powers (like in some of the Welsh tales) then the Power rules from the BGB could be just thing thing. Give each hero a certain number of points/random roll to buy powers with, and limit powers to setting appropriate stuff, toss in some cultural stuff, limit gear to what existed at the time (plus magic) and you're good to go. The BGB's drawback is the same as it's strong point, namely that it is a toolkit, and will be full of stuff that a GM will not need for a particular campaign. Sometime that might mean that another BRG game (RQ, Stormbringer, CoC) might be better suited for a given setting. For instance, I can't see using the BGB to run a campaign set in Moorcok's Young Kingdoms, I'd use Strombringer (or maybe RQ) instead, but I might use the BGB to add in new things if the characters were to adventure on other planes in the multiverse. It that case the BGB might prove useful as a source of stats for stuff like a laser pistol or a fighter jet. Come to think of it, what you are using it for now (picking some rules to alter your RQ game) is just what's it's good for.

What sort of bow/arrows were you using? I disagree. How armor and shields work against an attack are entirely within the realm of standard roleplayers. Case in point, Pendragon is a RQ based game but uses different damage values for weapons as well as different armor and shield values. Except on that matter a shield is much better than plate armor. A typical arrow does 1d6+1 and a typical longbow arrow does 1d8+1. Both can impale, making plate not all that effective against them. In most fights involving archers the plate is probably going to get penetrated at least once before the warrior can close the distance. I'm a bit RQ3 fan too. It's probably my favorite iteration of the BRP rules. But it certainly could stand a few tweaks in some areas.

No, because it is much easier for an arrow to penetrate 25mm of wood than 4mm of steel plate. Note I used mm not cm. The distance the arrow has to travel isn't really a factor here. If the arrow can reach the shield it can reach the armored warrior, and if it has enough energy to penetrate the armor, then it certainly has enough to punch through the wooden shield and still penetrate an unarmored warrior. It's not necessary that complex. Steel Plate actually protects better that a wooden shield, and more likely that not the arrow is going to break off of the armor rather than penetrate it. . The problem for armored warriors is that when there tends to be more than one arrow the chances of an arrow finding a gap in the armor, or a fragment of a shattered one finding a gap becomes more of a threat. A volley of arrows that hit a group of armored warriors can send splinters of wood in all directions. It's almost like shrapnel.

We used to use it tactically to limit the opponent from using an incompatible spell. Throw a Dullblade and maybe some Countermagic, and it might mess up someone putting Bladesharp or Fireblade on their weapon. But all all depends on the opponent and what you wanted to avoid.

Yeah, but it probably wouldn't impale a target who was well armored. Arrow damage, is so high that an impale result is usally going to get past any worn armor. It makes shields so important in m ost versions of BRP. Now in real life I suspect we'd be safer in full plate than behind a roundshield, but in BRP not so much.

I think the solution here is to do like they do with some other impaling weapons (halbard and rapier for instance) and adjust arrow impaling damage from double damage to maybe +1d4 or some such. The Usagi Yojimbo RPG (2nd edtion) had stab and impale criticals, with the stab usually being less effective. Spears and swords could impale wile arrows couldn't. If we reduced most archaic missile weapons to +1d4 instead of double damage they would probably work out better. I think part of the trouble is that the impale happens "before" armor, rather than after. Thus you wind up with "impaling" attacks that can still bounce off armor, or light weapons regularly finding gaps in the armor. The "before the armor" approach is okay for ancient cultures, where there tended to be big gaps in coverage, but it's not so hot with medieval armor. I wonder how doubling the damage after the armor would work?

Your right, I did, and you didn't. Sorry. I guess that ends my streak, guess I don't win the new car after all. Maybe I'll get the home version of the game? Okay, then I guess I never convince you. But they will do much better at sokaing up the impact of a warhammer than mail, leather or pretty much anything that isn't plate. By gamebeson I mean an arming doublet or aketon. Basically several layers of quited or stuffed cloth that is worn under other armors as a foundation. With most armor it is really what stops the force of the blow from doing damage. Mail and scales mostly keep the sharp edged from cutting, and the padding does the rest. In fact, a gambeson without mail is better at stopping a sword than mail without a gambeson.

Yes it could, although that might be tricky to imprlent in RQ/BRP, as it normally doesn't differentiate between types of damage, except in some variants that have different types of specials. And with the way those specials work, I'm not sure if it would adapt well.

It's an okay solution. But your arguments that full mail plus coat of plates protects as well as plate and is signdicantly heavier just doesn't hold up. Plate does protect better, and the weight is about the same. Just consider the evolution. If it were about weight and cost, then for over a century plate was a failure. The whole evolution of armor with more and more plate being added to and replacing mail was becuase plate provided superior protection. Sorry but I disagree. The whole point of a warhammer was to concentrate the are of impace so as to be able to penetrate plate. Padding is probably the best or second best armor to wear against blunt trauma. Exacept that the impale chance has nothing to do with the armor worn. Thus your just as likely to have an arrow find a gap in plate as it is to piece mail, or even padding. Arrows are far more effective against plate in RQ than they were histoically. Yes, and comes down to where you want to draw the line, and also why. I for one, might bother with that sort of thing if it matter to the campaign (much like it does in Pendragon), but wouldn't if I were running a modrn or sci-fi game, where the differences between medeival armors is moot. So that's where they grey hairs came from! Seriously, I think that is really a matter of choice. Lots of people like and play Harn, and there are certainly more complex RPGs out there. In my experience Harn Combat and armor is probably a bit simpler that RQ, with everything condensed down to one or two sheets, with crticals being easy to work out, and everything worked into the combat matrix.. The grey hairs probably came when figuring out the price and weight. But again, the orginal debate was over the effectiveness, cost and weight of plate vs. mail plus coat of plates. As far as I kinow you really haven't provided any info that supports your statement. Now I'll condeed as far a price goes, at least once they could stamp out plate, but not the rest.

That extended even to the name of the game. It had been called Stormbringer for over a decade. The name change just confused things a bit. It's not like there were Elric fans who didn't recognize Strombringer. It would be like if they changed the name of Pendragon to Excalibur. Exactly. That comes down to the setting and style of play. And there are others that do going into that sort of detail , such as the aforementioned Harn. It wouldn't be hard for someone to port Harn's armor and damage tables over to RQ/BRP, maybe even streamline it down to just the three armor values (Blunt/Edged/Piercing). If they really wanted to do that. It all comes down to how far you want to go with it, and if the results are worth the trade offs. I'm actually a bit suprised that Pendragon, which is a simplified version of RQ, acutally goes into more detail regarding weapon vs. armor types. In fact, it's the main way the game differentiates between weapons.

How could you divide one point? THe thing is, paddng should be worth far more than 1 point against blunt trauma. Yea, I got two in a row! I hope I win the new car!

Okay, but such "White Armors" (the generic name for late era plate) were really just refinements of the earlier plate armor. And the weight of such armor varied quite a bit, depending on region of origin. Gothic (German) style was light, but Milanese (Italian) style was heavier. Maximillian was a later evolution of the Gothic style, and while light for plate, still weighted about the same as a full mail outfit with "all the trimmings". You'r forgetting munitions grade plate. Once they were also to press out plate they did start making a cheap stamped out plate for the common soldiers. "Cheap" being a relative term. It was much cheaper than custom armor, but was still something that cost enough that only professional solider would buy it. But, that became more of a thing. Men who went off on campaign and did well would buy armor and a horse for the next time around, and even get more pay for doing so. So yeah, once they could stamp forge plate it did become less expensive than mail, as it was less time consuming (something that became an issue after the Black Death significantly reduced the workforce, and upped the pay grade).

What's funny is that RQ3 was heavily influenced by Strombringer. Things such as skills being in 1% increments, and category modifiers being on a point per point bases rather than in stat ranges (ie.e 13-16: +5%, 17-20: +10%) originated in Strombringer. THe BGB might be closer to a Strombringer/Call of Cthulhu hybrid as I think CoC was the first Chaosium RPG to drop category modifiers, although the original BRP booklet also dropped them.

It's not that good. Padding is rather effective against blunt weapons. but is flexible. But doesn't account for what type of armor you are hitting at all. Plate if much more resistant to being pieced than mail, scale or pretty much any other medieval/ancient armor. So much so that most impaling weapons won't penetrate it. If you really want to be more realistic, most such weapons will bounce off the plate.

Not necessarily. Remeber there is space between the rings. A typical suit of plate is usually heavier than mail. Can you provide some documentation for that? Most of what I've seen indicates the opposite. Plate typically takes more pieces to provide coverage, but distributes the weight much better. It's not all hanginig from the shoulders as with mail. GO watch just about any youtube video on longbows, crossbows or even javelins. Arrows will penetrate mail, even mail protected by a coat of plates (which has small plates and lots of gaps) but won't penetrate plate armor. Sorry, but no. "Articulated" plate is really multiple pieces of overlapping plates worn over a gambeson with gossets of mail to give some protection to joints and other areas that couldn't be protected with plate. It just ins't as flexible as mail- no other armor was. That's why full plate armor still needed mail to protect flexible areas such as joints. Not really. Arrows ans spears could penetrate mail, and big heavy weapons could break links or even bones through the armor. Plus all armor has weak points where the armor is thinner or completely lacking. The armpits were always a good target. I'm not sure if it would be all that more realistic. All metal armors are worn over gambesons/aketons/arming doublets that absorb a lot of the impact. In fact this is yet another way in which plate protects better than mail, even mail with a coat of plates. Solid plate will spread oput the impact area, whereas mail will give, making plate much better against weapons such as hammers, greatsword, halbards, flails and maces. To be more realstic you would probably need different armor values for pieceing, cutting, and blunt weapons, similar to what Harn does. Or else speical weapon vs. armor bonus, like what Pendragon does. Indeed it is, but it's also a kettle that helps to disprove your argument about mail being equal to solid plate. A breastplate and placard are far better protection against a lance than mail with a coat of plates.