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Hmm, if DEX and APP gave some sort of modifier to improvement rolls,they would still be useful even for experience characters. Maybe ATTRIBUTE/10-1? So 5-14 +0, 15-24: +1, 25-34: +32, etc. That would mean that a high DEX or APP would double the chances of raising a skill over 18.

On no problem in how you ran it. I'm just surprised the players fell for it. It is like the grandson of John Anthony Walker getting a sensitive government job with a security clearance. Neither are mine. I have one player who might be up on some things, but most of them are lucky to find Salisbury on the map. It's somewhat annoying since this is the fifth time around for most of them. You don't have to go into a lot of depth. They key points are: Vortigern had the King and his son murdered and usurped the throne from Aurelius and Uther, who were sprinted away to Brittany He then married the daughter of the Saxon chieftain Hengest, and gave away tribal lands to the Saxons and began to favor them over the British in everything, and executing those who protested his actions. Many Brits fled to Brittany to join the princes in exile. After a series of rebellions, Led by Vortigern's own sons, the Saxons were driven out, and Vortigern held a meeting on Salisbury plain where all the nobles could come and air thier grievances and try to reach a peace with the Saxons. But, at the meeting the Saxons treacherous drew hidden daggers and fell upon the British, killing all the nobles, including the Count of Salisbury. Only Vortigern was spared, as he was married to Hengest's daughter. Aurelius and Uther returned to Britain to reclaim their birthright, burned Vortigern to death in his tower, killed Hengest in battle, and restored lands to the exiled knights. That should be plenty.

That's huge. I don;t think it is justified considering the nature of medieval weapons, but it certainly would be game changer. I've been working with STR+Bow Skill to dertmine what bow a character can wield, but it's not something most knights are going to bother with. I like to read more on that. I've been working on a weaker version of it myself. I have a version where the character ingore half his DEX, full DEX in armor, as opposed to the half/all of KAP4. So do I. The difficulty lies in what people believe it is appropriate for. For instance in my experience it wound't apply to most of the things it applies to in the rules, but should apply to knockdown, which it doesn't apply to. After late peroid jousting armor, mail is probably the armor with the greatest penalty, because it is so flexible that it can shift and move, but it got better over time as armorers leanred how to better distrubte the weight and how to better fit an attach iut to the body. The penalty should probably go down for better armors. That would probably depend on how strong you are, how big you are, and how much mail you have on (I hate the term chainmail, it's redundant). It's not so much that you can't keep afloat, but that without buoyancy it takes a lot more effort to do so. Maybe the armor penalty should apply to the roll to avoid fatigue instead? That's pretty much Morien's idea only it applied to a few other Physical skills such as Dancing. But the idea got a lot of flak. It helps little, but obviously isn't worth as much as passion let alone SIZ or CON. Even getting APPx10 in glory each year wouldn't equal the benefits of SIZ or CON. Maybe APP could be rolled to get a modifier to courtly skills, similar to how inspiration works? By RAW they have a shot but tend to fall behind as glory goes up and players get more cards to choose from. Frankly I think a better way to handle it would be to allow characters above the salt to draw cards, but increase their penalties for failure, as they do so in front of the VIPs. Surprised? Not really. It's still the poor stat of the lot. Hopefully that can be addressed down the road sometime. The way this was resolved in RuneQuest was with category modifiers, basically a minor bonus given out to skills based on the attribute scores. But skill scores tend to be used at a higher rating in Pendragon relative to RQ. For instance starting PKs in Pendragon routinely rely on skills in the 6-10 range, while skills in the 30-50% range are the bed and butter skills for starting characters in RQ.

You're right, too. That's a good thing too. It wouldn't be in Cerdic's best interests to remind people of Uther's son or anyone else with a better claim to the throne that he has.

It would certainly make DEX more significant than it is now.

I think that is nice mechanically, but not so great logically. I mean if that glory is affected by APP why not other glory? I liked the glory = skill rating or die result better, especially with the APP based default. Interesting. THe average helps. I think DEX all the way probably hurts Horsemanship skill too much. One idea I had was to make the cut off point from skills equal to an attribute rather than 15. Then DEX and APP would be really important for character improvement, but that would really lower everyones skills across the board. How did you manage that? I have a hard time prying the PKS off of horseback, even in situations where being mounted should hurt them. For instance last adventure the PKs had to cross a rocky land bridge at low tide. Doing so required DEX rolls (or horsemanship if mounted) and most of the knights opted to go mounted as their horsemanship was much higher than their DEX. It got problmatic for them when the Sea Griffin came out of the water. No, DEX has some use, but mostly in things that knights wouldn't be doing, like sneaking about. Yes, because any reasonably intelligent player will avoid attempting tasks they they will expect to fail at. Such things tend to become the last resort. I was thinking of doing something similar. Basically taking that +5 knights get/used to get when fighting unarmored and applying it to the DEX penalty. So knights trained to wear armor would be -5 in mail instead of -10. Meanwhile a Pict or bandit who scavenges a suit of mail would be -10.

Yes, that's the thing by playing up the Saxon connection he hurts his position. I think the thing is players can look at this as "Well us Britons and Saxons have to share the island and coexist so a leader who wants to do that seems sensible," but the thing is all the Saxon lands in the South was taken from Britons by Vortigern a generation or so ago. He could try to rehabilitate Votigenr's image, although then he would be best not to mention young Arthur, as that would bring up bad memories of Vortigern. Throwing Hengest under the bus is the way to go, but he can't do that while most of his supporters are Saxon. Exactly, why not. IT sure beats relying trying to gain support by linking to the King was was a tyrant, led to many knights going into exile, and was burned alive in his own tower, or the man who murdered everyone's liege lord. Ceridc might be a real stand up guy, he does seem to be good once Arthur becomes King and causes no trouble after Badon. But being the son of Vortigern and the grandson of Hengest are probably not the sort of things he that are going to win over the Cymri. I figure linking to Vortimer is the only card that Cerdic can play that won't hurt his claims. Assuming he can pull it off in front of his Saxon followers. At least Aesc and Aelle reps are based upon straightforward conquest and not treachery.

It depends on which version of RQ you are using, and depends mostly on how much damage a parring weapon/shield stops and how breakable such objects are. In RQ2 swords had hit popints and could break after a few parries while shields were basically indestructible.In RQ3 shields were a bit tougher and stopped a little more than most swords, as well as being more effective against missile weapons. In game such as Strombringer, where a parry stopped all damage, shields could parry missile weapons while swords could not.

Unfornately. I think ther eis a clear heriacry with SIZ and CON being the primary stats, STR a secondary stats, DEX getting an honrable mention and APP being a joke. Well originally it was a completely random method, which was fair and downplayed the disparity among the stats. It didn't matter if SIZ was more important that DEX since chargen was random. Except, maybe, Saxons came out a little ahead. The 60 point method was really a secondary option for those players who felt that they always rolled poorly, or who wanted to be sure thay didn't have a terrible stat that would ruin a character (i.e. CON 4). In KAP3 that was extended to the rest of chargen and made the standard method. I think the best solution so far was Morien's where the Courtly skills started at APP/2 and Physical/Agility skills started at DEX/2. It might make an 18 APP worth it to a courtier as it would raise all his courtly skills to 9. It would alos help ladies, for whom APP is thier best stat, and who are supposed to focus on courtly skills. But, I'm open to other suggestions. One thing that could help DEX is to reduce to excessive DEX penalties. I've worn mail and it's nowhere near as encumbering as the game make it out to be. Ironically the one DEX base roll that it doesn't affectin the game, knockdown, is about the only thing where mail presented a problem to us in real life. Basically the armor shifts your center of balance. With time and training someone could probably adapt to it, but we tended to either over or under compensate. Maybe the old +5 skill bonus for knights unarmored could instead apply to the DEX penalty for trained vs. untrained opponents in armor?

Funny, I always read that bit as his being an arrogant Saxon SOB, boating about Vortigern and telling the PKS that they want to be on the "winning side". He doesn't come off as all that sympathetic to me. TO me it seems more like "come join me and I'll be nice to you, or if not I'll crush you." The last time I ran that adventure the PKS had a hard time not cutting him down at Ellen's court, for the good of Britain. The GPC even goes out of it's way to mention Vortigern, so I don't know how the PKS could have forgot. Wow! Well they say that there is one born every minute. Consider how Vortigern handled Constatin's sons Cerdic probably should have left that topic alone. But...that's probably stuff your players don't know about. But it sounds more like since Vortigern is all ancient history the players sort of viewed Cedric with a blank slate and just took him at his word. Your welcome. One thing that i did differently with this campaign compared to previous ones is start it very early and ran the players through Vortigern reign. For most players this is just stuff that happens long ago that they note down during chargen. Unless the players read the source material it probably doesn't hit them personally like the stuff they play though. For the players in my current campaign, this is personal. They were there when Comstans was murdered (two PKs took major wounds trying to defend him), helped usher Aurelius and Uther to Britanny, lost a manor to the Saxons becuase of him, ended up being rebels under Vortimer and fled into exile in 458. There is an excellent chance that the two remaining active original PKs will fall trying to defend the Count at Long Knives next session. So I think that will give them a more personal take on Vortigern than the usual PKs in 497. I wouldn't be surprised this time around if my PKS offer to build him a tower like King Votigern's so that Cedric can follow in his father's footsteps. But, if Cerdic were to play it smart he'd play up his relationship as Vortimer's brother rather than Vortigern's son. But he doesn't seem bright enough.

Any it's 37.5% with 3d6+4. I don't see what the problem is though. In KAP5 standard rules, Cymric knights have 15s in all thier passions which statsitcally much less likely (6.25%) with the random method than a character getting a 19 or 20 passion Except that passions of 21+ are impossible in K&L due to the rule that no passion can start at higher than 20. Yes, but that is the problem with APP (and to a less degree DEX and even STR) in KAP. It is a stat that has little use in the game (oddly it's biggest value is with aging), and is mostly use for flavor. It has some value in the Book of Feasts, but since it's better not to sit at the High table anyway, not much. Interesting but it begs the question- Why not drop APP entirely? And if you roll; APP separately then a case could be made for DEX. While DEX is used for a bunch of phsycial taks that PKS will almost never attempt anyway, thanks to the overboard armor penalties, it's onth big use is in knockdown, which doesn't come up much as knights will alomsot always want to fight from horseback. Not only are the more mobile, and get a +5/-5 modifier vs footmen, but since PKS use horsemanship when mounted it is usually harder to knock someone off a horse than off his feet (which is probably wrong). This is precisely why that idea you had of basing skills off of APP and DEX realled helped, as it made those two attributes valuable. Even those who think that APP is important for roleplaying and apply situation modifiers for it and so on, have an uphill battle proving that APP 18 is a valuable as SIZ 18, because, it isn't. Even for ladies!

Yup, you are. Back when I ran KAP 1-4 I always used the random method when it was available. I still prefer it, although it does introduce problems at times. I'm more concerned with traits though than attribute or passions. There are so many traits that some odd extreme rolls are bound to pop up, and in some strange combinations. In a previous campaign one PK's cruelty was only exceeding by his capacity to forgive. So it became an almost comical standard procedure at his court for any commoners to just beg forgiveness rather than appeal to his mercy.

How illuminating.

Yup, although such a trip could happen if there is a reason. But I think it's mostly to set the mood and foreshadowing Uther's illness and decline in the coming years.

Oh, sorry, I took that differerntly. Yeah, plus if they go to London they can stop at ol' rundown Camelot on the way -allowing the GM to play up the contrast. In some ways Winchester/Camelot is a physical presentation of how the kingdom is doing. It's a run down city during the early years, then falls into Saxon hands during the Anarchy, is transformed into the jewel of Britain during Arthur's reign, and then falls to the Saxons again after Arthur's passing. I occasionally send my PKs through to show them how run down it is., a present it like a high crime slum.

Pretty much what you are doing now by thinking about what the various NPKs are doing at this time. Work out what Uther, Roderick, Ulfius, etc. etc. are up to and how that will affect the PKs. Then maybe brainstorm a little to see what sort of side adventures that could lead to for the player knights. For instance, maybe Count Roderick sends them off to get something to make preparations for the funeral. For instance, it would seem likely that only Merlin could move the stones so maybe they need to find him? I'd think someplace else. I mean would you want to get married at the same time and place where you are burying your only son? That would pretty much put a damper on the wedding. Not to mention putting a major strain on Roderick's resources. I suggest the wedding happen later/elsewhere say at Carleon or Camelot or London, and is much more upbeat than the funeral.

I don't think that;s a good idea. What it does it tell the players to roll since they have a chance of starting off better and no chance of starting off worse. To me, the random method is a gamble. The player could get lucky and roll a superman with great attributes, the religious bonus, and the chivalry bonus, but the player could also roll someone with poor stats, bad traits and is a challenge to play. Most likely they will get something pretty close to the standard method, give or take a point or two here and there. But if the player doesn't want to run the risk of rolling up a knight with SIZ, 4, DEX 4, STR 4, CON 4, APP 4 the player should play it safe and stick to the standard method. No one is forcing them to roll randomly.

No they don't. There is a marked tendency to get ahigh SIZ, although I could fix that by putting more realistic limits on the horses. CON tends to be more sought that STR. It is the second half of the hit point equation and a high CON means fewer major wounds. STR becomes a attribute that can be easily raised by younger knights (that is without glory). DEX and APP are, unfortunately, mostly dump stats-although Morien did have a soltuon for that which some poeple did not like. Oh, I misunderstood your "doesn't everybody else do this/isn't that suggested in the rules" comment as a believe that this is how chargen was written up. THat's good because I'm not. Nothing to get angry about. It's your campaign you can run chargen however you like. I may or may not agree or disagree with some things or be concerned about unintended side effects or what not, but it's your game. I might discuss stuff as one Pendragon GM/player to another but ultimately it's up to each GM to run thier own game and decide on what rules to use or to houserule. I'm sure I'm running a few things that some other GM would do differerntly. Heck I started my campaign in 410 with the PKs using roundshields. It doesn't say that in the books anywhere. Yes I would. I'd also remind the player that it was their choice to roll and that they could have gone with the standard chargen and assign the 60 points. They gambled, and lost. I make that very plain to my players when ever the think of using random chargen. On the plus side they could get an play a Lancelot or a Gawaine with the random method, on the downside they could get a 70 pound weakling. I think that if I did it different then people would roll becuase they would know that they would get a superior character to the standard method. I do dispute. The probably of extreme results goe down with more dice. Basically the more dice you roll the wider the range, but the less likey the extrme results will occur. A 12 on 2d6 is more likely than a 18 on 3d6 and so on. This is something that comes up in the old West End D6 game system. In theory 10d6 damage can hurt something rolling 14d6 to soak, but it is less likely than, say 5d6 vs. 7d6. If that is a bonus. I think the problem here is that you have a different goal that K&L. The book is trying to give most characters a passion of around 15, with some variance. I think you want something lower. You might prefer something like 12+1d6. With 2d6+7 a character would end up with an average passion of 13, which is much lower than the 15 they would get with the standard method. One of the goals of the random method in K&L is to produce characters than are about equal to those created with the standard method.

Not all that strong. Votigern got the title by murdering the previous two High Kings, stole lands, reorganized and relocated tribes, executed kings, and gave away half of Britian to Saxons. HE was so hated that many fled into exile and begged Aurelius to come back, which he eventually did. And Cerdic grandfather, Hengest is one of the few men whose memory was hated more that Vortigern's. Rather than being sympathetic, I think my players are going to have a hard time just being civil with the guy. Of course, I'm actually running my group through Vortigern';s reign so all those bad events are things that happened in play and not just stuff that happened to to granddad on the family history tables. My PKs rebelled against Vortigenr and went into exile. Or even worse, like his Grandfather. Hengest was worse than Vortigern and the man responsible for the Night of Long Knives. That's the thing with Cerdic, his claim to the throne is based on his ties to two of the most hated men in memory.

THat's how it started with the PKS in my camapign, but they managed to help stop a plague, and got noticed by the King and formally recognized as Kinghtly Order. THere were only four member to start with, and so far memeber peaked at a baker's dozen. I don't allow cloning either, but do use the 1d6 per 4 point of the father, the idea being that they would have an influence of the son. Overall I think the effect would be similar to the bonuses you listed earlier.

Oh, okay, that's better. I could see that. With my PKs, since their fathers (and now grandfathers) were members they inherited the passion at chargen.

Yeah, how did that happen? Did you players forget about Vortigern the tyrant and the Night of Long Knives?

I believe it's because it is combined in with the shooting. In the old days they used to just write this as Bow SR 2/9 the idea being that the character not only aims and fires a little faster but also reloads a little faster.So a character would shoot at DEX SR then 2xDEX SR+5

Opps. Sorry. I checked the wrong box when I printed the result. Except bell curves work in the opposite manner. The fewer dice the flatter the curve and thus the lower the chance of results in the middle range. Hence a 2 is more likely to come up on 1d6 than on 2d6. So reducing the number of dice increases the chances of extreme results. With a single die any result is equally likely. Increasing the number of dices increases the range of the results, not the chances of the extreme results happening. No they do not and no the book does not recommend assigning die rolls where you wish. The point of the random method is that it is random.and you have little to no control over the results. That's why it is listed as: Male Characters: Roll 3d6+4 for SIZ; Roll 3d6+1 for each other attribute. Female Characters: Roll 2d6+2 for SIZ and STR; Roll 3d6+1 for DEX and CON; and Roll 3d6+5 for APP. Note that it does not have something like: it say, roll 3d6+1 for each attribute, assign as desired, add 3 to SIZ and apply cultural modifiers. Now you can do it that way, but it not what is recommended and not what most people do. If someone wants to assign their stats they use one of the other methods. Yes. That is the intention. Yes. Just like we keep the SIZ if it is 19 or higher. That' is the trade off of using the random method. Keep in mind that the standard method is to assign 60 points. By choosing to roll a player has a chance of getting a superior character at the risk of getting an inferior character. If people want to adjust die rolls and such they are essentially using a variation of the shaped method.

Yeah. That's a great deal on so many levels. We get access to old out of print stuff, we get it for less than it went for originally, and adjusted for inflation we get if for something like 25% of what they cost to but when they came out. Even if someone printed out the PDfs they would come out way ahead compared to someone from the 80s. Congrats! All credit to the gang a Chaosium for pulling this one off.