Jeff

On 1/24/2019 at 3:09 PM, Sir_Godspeed said:

What about his Ten Sons? Are they treated as subcults, or just aspects of the Lodril Cult? They're clearly modeled around the "common man's work", a bit like a combination of Barntar and Durev.

Also, what about the regional equivalencies - Turos and Gerendetho? Gerendetho seems more hunting-focused, while Turos has much less for an elemental Fire-focus in his myths and more of a general power/masculinity focus (there's even KetTuros as a god of urban organization/protection).

I'll admit, from my first readings on Lodril in a specifically Pelorian context, there didn't seem to be much of a Fire-focus at all. It was a lot more written about him working the soil, getting drunk, and being the village headman. With all this explicit elementalism, are we sure we're not letting the God Learners and Caladra/Veskarthan influence Pelorian Lodril here?

Most of the Pelorian sources that have appeared describe Lodril from the perspective of the Yelm and Dayzatar cults. Lodril is very much the god of the Fire Beneath the Earth. He is not an Earth God, but he is associated with several Earth Goddesses (and in more significant ways than the Dara Happans tend to assume).

1 hour ago, metcalph said:

There are:

• Two Sons of the Devil: Black Hralf of Fronela and Argin Terror of Ralios - precise powers unknown.
• A Son of Chaos worshipped in the Umathelan City of Gargulla.
• Cacodemon is the strongest remnant of the Devil and the Ogres believe him to be the Creator of the World (Guide p108)
• The Eye of Wakboth beneath the Devil's Playground.

If you want the raw Wakboth then the easiest thing might be committing acts of evil to gain chaotic features.  But each new feature requires committing a worse evil than the last successful evil act.  Also the nature of the feature would be somehow relevant to the evil that was committed.

None at this point. Wakboth cannot grant his worshipers the ability to wield part of himself in Time. As long as his parts remain trapped and inaccessible. That isn't to say there aren't Chaotic would-be-heroes who are trying hard to free him or recreate his birth. 

On 1/19/2019 at 12:46 PM, metcalph said:

The Lodril writeup in the zine (also in Cult Compendium) was partly crap.  The cult in the world bits were good but the magic was just plain fire-magics which had very little use for the average Lodrili worshipper.   

Lodril's not a fertility deity in that sense (although he certainly was fecund). His best farmer's aid spells are Earthwarm, Control Flood, and Stabilize Earth (for irrigation). Bless Crops comes from Dendara or Oria or whatever other Grain Goddess is locally worshiped. The average farmer calls on Lodril to protect fields and orchards against frost (which is still an issue in Peloria despite the Kalikos Expedition), to cremate the dead, and so on. And the fact that Lodril is loved by the Earth Goddesses means that by worshiping Lodril, you keep them happy. 

On 1/20/2019 at 6:37 PM, Kloster said:

Hello Jeff.

Thanks for the explanation. I have 1 question:

Does that means you can (in addition to normal community time and duties) both train and adventuring, or that you can perform only one during a given season?

Kloster

I thought the explanation was pretty clear - in a normal season, you can get your "adventuring time" of up to about three weeks and can research ONE skill, and still do the things you need to do to survive as a member of the community. But now you are pretty much "fully booked up" - anything more and I'd say your Sacred Time rolls are going to be severely penalized. Or as the rules say, you can do that much and little else.

1 minute ago, Brootse said:

Thanks for the clarification! How would you handle a character training full time instead of working? 5 skill increases per season and allow skill increases in lores too?

I will defer to individual GMs how to handle that in their campaigns. In my campaigns, the idea of "training full time" just isn't plausible. All characters have cult responsibilities, occupational roles, community obligations, etc. Even if you were living in a Humakt temple as some kind of devoted initiate, you need to eat, sleep, worship the god, pray and meditate more than persuade a Sword Lord to train you. In a Knowledge Temple, you are going to be copying scrolls, writing down records, and working as a scribe. And so on.

Once upon a time, Greg and I played around with breaking down the percentage of time a character can devote to any type of activity - working, cult responsibilities, family obligations, praying and meditation, dreaming, sex, whatever. It was an interesting exercise but waaaaaaay too much book-keeping for a game system. What is in RQG gets you to more or less the same result without the bookkeeping.

27 minutes ago, Kloster said:

This is also what I had understood, and that's why I had written:

 

That seems good to me. Those skills can not have a proper experience tick, but at least could be raised between adventures for professional and cult skills.

 

We are on the same line here. My character has been created as a philosopher, but has been hired as a scribe and another player that plays a character similar to the pregen Vishi Dunn (but from Agimori tribe)had to leave his activity as Assistant Shaman because he was not able to serve his tribe (because he is now in Sartar), so he currently works as hunter.

Kloster

On 1/19/2019 at 12:03 PM, Brootse said:

Yeah, I get why it was changed, it's just that RAW don't work right now.

The rules say that training is a full time activity. If the rules were changed so that the training was only a part time activity, then it would be kinda ok. Though just like you said, there would still be a need for full time training rules.

It seem I wrote that less carefully than it should have been. It means you can do little else in addition to whatever normal stuff you are doing for your occupation, community, etc. So only one skill can be trained at a time, and you can't take on any tasks above your allotted "adventuring time" per season.

So if you train a skill, that's your "extra activity" you can do that season above and beyond your "adventuring time". 

1 hour ago, The God Learner said:

Aren't the Arkati patrols there to ensure Arkat doesn't happen again?

 

They clearly fail.

2 hours ago, Sumath said:

Will there be anything covering Gustbran or other smith deities? It would be a useful bit of background information for a bronze age setting, and for Crafter occupations.

Gustbran is covered in the Lowfires.

1 minute ago, Tindalos said:

Ooh, this is very handy to have, thank you!

Although I must confess I was more meaning what cults got things like Kargzant and Elmal, where they're listed as regional variations with notes like that. Sorry for the confusion!

Kargzant and Elmal are described in Yelmalio.

Tolat is described in Shargash.

YU-Kargzant is described in Yelm.

Veskarthan is described in Lodril.

And probably plenty of others I have forgotten.

4 minutes ago, soltakss said:

I would love to see some of those in print. Maybe having the standard cult writeup in Gods of Glorantha, or one of the followups, then have local variations in Region supplements. So, have a writeup of Dara Happan Yelm in a Dara Happan supplement, to be compared with the current Pentian-style Yelm. 

The version of Yelm presented in Gods and Goddesses is the Dara Happan version. With notes about Pent and elsewhere.

Every widespread cult has local variations. Yelm has Yelm of Dara Happa v. Yelm of the Pure Horse People. Orlanth has Adventurous, Thunderous, and Rex. Ernalda and the Grain Goddesses have zillions of local variations. Lodril has many local variations. Shargash is a local variant of Tolat that is so important that it has overwhelmed the more broadly known cult. 

5 minutes ago, soltakss said:

Is that all? 🙂

Probably not. I keep adding a few whenever I realise I need to understand that myth cycle. These are Cults of Prax style write-ups, not RQ3 GoG.

35 minutes ago, Tindalos said:

I don't suppose it would be possible to ask what gods are listed as variations in Gods of Glorantha?

I realise it's still a work in progress and probably a big request, but it's worth a shot.

I currently have full writeups of:

• Kyger Litor
• Annilla
• Argan Argar
• Gorakiki
• Xiola Umbar
• Zorak Zoran
• Magasta
• Dormal
• Engizi
• Oslira
• Choralinthor
• Ernalda
• Aldrya
• Asrelia
• Babeester Gor
• Donandar
• Eiritha
• Flamal
• Grain Goddesses
• Hykim & Mikyh
• Maran Gor
• Mostal
• Ty Kora Tek
• Uleria
• Yelm
• Dayzatar
• Dendara
• Gorgorma
• Lodril
• Lokarnos
• Lowfires
• Polaris
• Shargash
• Yelmalio
• Orlanth 
• Chalana Arroy
• Eurmal
• Issaries
• Lhankor Mhy
• Daka Fal
• Foundchild
• Heler
• Humakt
• Mastakos
• Odayla
• Storm Bull
• Valind
• Waha
• Yinkin
• Seven Mothers
• Danfive Xaron
• Deezola
• Irrippi Ontor
• Jakaleel the Witch
• Yanafal Tarnils
• Etyries
• Hon-eel
• Nysalor
• Red Goddess
• Primal Chaos
• Bagog
• Cacodemon
• Crimson Bat
• Krarsht
• Mallia
• Thanatar
• Thed
• Vivamort

Not all of these will appear in the book (in fact I am certain the Chaos Gods will appear in a separate GM-facing book), but they all exist in complete form. What is missing is:

• The Invisible God (needs a separate treatment, as it also requires the full sorcery treatment)
• Pamalt (needs a separate treatment)
• Lesser troll gods (will appear in Trollpak)
• Pavis, Flintnail, Lanbril, Yelorna, Zola Fel (will appear in Big Rubble)

25 minutes ago, Corvantir said:

Thanks, this summary helps a lot. The RQG vision of Elmal seems irreconcilable with the vision from Sartar: Kingdom of Heroes where he is clearly described as being the sun and with the Glorantha Sourcebook where he is associated with the Sun Disk. Everything here is telling us that Elmal and Yelmalio are different gods.

Until now I was trying to reconcile Elmal with Yelmalio whereas Elmal could rather need to be reconciled with Yelm. That is an interesting point of view I had missed and it is certainly at the origin of my confusion.

May be am I wrong but I am sure I have read somewhere that Greg would have replied that considering Elmal and Yelmalio as different gods or as the same god was both true. This add to the confusion as far as I am concerned but could well be the key to grasping this cult.   😣

I wrote both of those sections and not only are they not incompatible with what I have written in RQG, but I wrote them with the goal of getting to this point. Greg and I talked at length about the treatment of Yelmalio in RuneQuest and I know he was fine with it.

For the purposes of RuneQuest, Elmal can (and will) be treated as a local variant of Yelmalio. Same thing with the elf variant of Yelmalio and the Pentan variant of Yelmalio. A worshiper of Elmal can go to a Sun Dome Temple and contact his god (i.e., replenish his Rune Points). A worshiper of Yelmalio can go to the temple at Runegate and contact his god (i.e. replenish his Rune Points). To make things more confusing, Elmal is often a title of Yelmalio, and Yelmalio is often a title of Elmal. The Elmal variant says Yelm is the father of Elmal, but sometimes calls the Sun Disk Elmal and sometimes calls the Sun Disk Yelm. The Yelmalio cult does the same. <As an aside, the Yelm cult never calls the Sun Disk Elmal or Yelmalio and can draw much more substantive powers from the Fiery Sun than any of the Yelmalio variants (who only get Sunspear through the Yelm cult).>

That's the similarities. There are some magical differences between the variants. The Yelmalio cult takes on all sorts of strange geases to get gifts from the god, the Elmal does not. Elmal is associated with Orlanth and not with Yelm. Yelmalio is associated with Yelm and not Orlanth. 

In play I don't think it doesn't make much difference. If someone from Sartar wants to play a solar worshiper they can. Their choice is basically establishmentarian (Elmal) or dissenter (Yelmalio). Mechanically the only differences are associate cults (Yelm or Orlanth) that the Yelmalio worshiper gets gifts and geases and fights with pike and shield, and the Elmal worshiper does not. Socially the Elmal character can insist that the Yelmalio worshiper is "doing it wrong" or "taking it too far", and the Yelmalio character can insist that the Elmal worshiper "values tradition over the gods" or "values tribe over the truth" - but as far as the rules are concerned, they are worshiping variations of the same god. Same thing happens when an Tolat worshiper from Melib comes to Alkoth and meets the Shargash cult (Tolat and Shargash are presented as variations of the same god).

2 minutes ago, Corvantir said:

So Yelmalio is a part of Yelm more so than he is his son as we human intend it. But how can he thus be Lightfore as it is written in the Glorantha Book (page 102). That would also mean that Lightfore is a part of Yelm.   😣

Those who say Yelmalio is the Sun Disk say that Yelmalio is the light emanated from the sun. Yelm, his father, is too distant to hear our prayers, but Yelmalio hears your prayers and comes to your aid.

Just now, soltakss said:

Yelmalio is the Cold Sun, the Winter Sun or the Mountain Sun, still the Sun Disc, but the one that manifests weakly. He is also Light Without Heat.

Yep. The Sun Disk is also Yelm. Who is the Sun Disk who rises and falls each day. The Bright Sun, the Imperial Sun, revived with Time to be guarantor of the Cosmic Compromise.

5 minutes ago, Darius West said:

I am inclined to think that every time we dismiss some smaller deity as essentially being the same as, equivalent to, or a mask of and established cult we become the same as God Learners, and worse, we become God Learners not out of hubris but out of laziness and a desire for convenience.  The fact is that in the case of other gods, we know that they are different.  Buserian, Irripi Ontor and Lhankor Mhy have a lot in common, but they are not the same deity.  Erissa has way too much in common with Chalana Arroy, but they are not the same deity, even though nobody has seen them in the same room together, and they never seem to attend the same conferences.  Every time you say they are the same deity, you disrespect their traditions.

Now let me go one further.  This is purely hypothetical, but if there were an East Isles Sun deity called "Sideways Sloth", and every evening Sideways Sloth climbed the greatest tree and when he got to the top, he would shoot a ball of sloth poo (sloth poo being hot and caustic, thus having great fire rune powers) across the sky, then fall off the tree into the leaves every dawn, eat low hanging leaves all day, then start climbing the tree again when it got dark.  Sideways sloth is Yelm, and his poo is the Sun Disc (the example is drawn from  obscure Amazonian tribal beliefs btw).  Sideways Sloth is also the god of Eating, Sleeping, Shitting, Laziness and Hammocks.  Does this bear any resemblance to the Solar worship of other societies?  Should it? Does it need to?  Sideways Sloth is a different revelation of the power of the sun to a different people.  Not every Sun Worshipper wants to be a Dara Happan, and we shouldn't cookie cut them into being Dara Happans foe the sake of convenience.

The fact is, I doubt that Sun deities outside Dara Happa will even have the same Rune Spells.  For example, in Kralorela they have an Emperor, and he is Draconic not Solar, and the Sun is primarily a god of agricultural plenty, much like in Esrolia.  In Teshnos, we know that Somash cultists dess up in womens' clothing and take too many drugs, because Monrogh expressedly forbade such things and was so angry with everyone disagreeing with him that he became a spirit of retribution and beat everyone up like a great big party pooper, yet his reforms never reached Teshnos.  There are at least 7 different forms of the Little Sun out there, and imo they should all be treated as being different, as if they weren't different, why would we even list them? 

I think regional variance only serves to enrich Glorantha.  There is no reason why one hill tribe believes exactly the same thing as another.  In ancient Greece for example, some people thought Zeus wasn't a thunder god so much as a werewolf god. It is said that the disjointed compilation of all the Zeus myths went a long way to discrediting the deity but that is what happens when moral philosophers get hold of a juicy story.  We know that Orlanthi tribes can and do trade their secrets and Hero Quests, and such things are worth as much as any tribal treasure.  I like the idea that if I drift into Saird, I might well find a recalcitrant group of Elmal worshippers who refuse to tug the forelock to Yelm, because Elmal is the Sun, and the real Yelm is dead.  Just as trickster shrines vary from settlement to settlement, there is no reason to suppose that all deities are created equal, or that even one bearing the same exact name will even be worshipped in the same way.  In psychology there is a phenomenon call "the narcissism of small differences" which points out that the more similar people are, the more they actively struggle to differentiate themselves.  Thus neighboring clans will actively look for ways to make themselves better and different to their neighbours, despite being in all ways culturally identical to them except in tiny ways.  Those tiny things will become all important, and a sign of in-group adherence.  People are prone to find reasons to dislike each other.  All the same, it would be possible for an outsider to potentially prove a common lineage, or win the trust of a clan, and potentially initiate into the secrets that a clan possesses that makes them unique.  Possible but not easy.

I like the God Learners, but that doesn't mean I think we should copy their mistakes.

It really depends on what you mean by "same". And I don't mean that facetiously.

As for repeating the God Learner mistakes, I don't see anyone doing that - although I do see people regularly making the errors of Plentonius (who is a far more unreliable narrator than most good God Learners).

2 minutes ago, Paid a bod yn dwp said:

Yes pleased to see many of the clarifications in the latest RQG PDF. Be handy to have an official errata including them for those of us with first printings. 

Jason and I are planning to put one together soon. But we have a lot in our INBOX right now.

4 minutes ago, Ultor said:

We've found the "artsy" ones much more difficult to use. There are some background effects that make reading a skill marked down in pencil very hard to read, for instance.

Which is why we also make the plain character sheets available. Some people like plain sheets, other people like fancy sheets. The answer is BOTH.

7 hours ago, foolcat said:

I‘m starting to see a pattern here. Admit it, folks, you simply want RQG to be the most frickin‘ gorgeous RPG ever made... 😍

 

Yep! And we have even more plans along this line.....

3 hours ago, Tindalos said:

I would like to point out that the earliest write up of Elmal in Storm Tribe did not grant him any fire powers. His affinity was Light and contained no fiery powers, so it's not as if this is an unheard of change.

(Though I do find it amusing that the variation on the cult who has the most intimate connection to losing their fiery nature in their mythology is the only one with access to fire.)

Just occurred to me, that Yelmalio already has Sunbright as a rune spell in RQ:G (309)

Does this indicate that Yelmalio shouldn't have it? Or that Antirius is part of all forms of Yelmalio and provides the spell to all?

Good catch - that was a bad cut and paste. It should read:

Antirius is normally worshiped as a subcult of Yelm and not as an independent cult.

Chaosium has no plans to bring out any new Magic World materials.

13 hours ago, JonL said:

It's also the case that slaying a dragon that has lost its way is doing it a favor. The Dragonbreaker is also the Dragonfriend.

Which is also why many Elmal cultists accept that Yelmalio is a mask of Elmal and vice versa.

You all may do with Elmal as you want - as far as the official version is concerned, Elmal has the same basic Rune magic and spirit magic as Yelmalio (which shouldn't be surprising). Elmal does not have Sunspear or Fireblade or Firearrow - despite what *I* wrote in SKH (and if we ever update SKH I will definitely fix some overly broad description I included in that book). 

The biggest difference is that Yelmalio has gifts and geases and Elmal does not, and Elmal is an associate of Orlanth, while Yelmalio is an associate of Yelm (and other Sky Gods). Also Yelmalio temples train their members in Pike and Shield, and Elmal temples do not (although they may have in the past!). 

If we view Elmal as being the cult of Yelmalio restricted to those myths where Yelmalio aided Orlanth and Orlanth's people - as seen by Orlanth and his people - we can see the contours of the Elmal cult. We can also see why Monrogh's revelation was so broadly embraced (and if we look really carefully we can even see why the House of Sartar would support his revelation). For the Elmal initiate, Monrogh's revelation meant taking a gift and a geas from the Little Sun. And also getting a whole series of additional stories about your god that supplement but do not replace the first story. Your god gets a promotion, you get a cool gift, and the other Sun Dome Temples will teach you superior fighting tactics.

Those who refused to accept the "sequels" (I think of them like fans of the original Star Wars movie, who refused to embrace the broader story elements in Empire Strikes Back) had community reasons for doing so. Yelmalio is not associated with the Lightbringers, which means his temples are not going to be supported by the tribal Orlanth cult. Where Elmal is the tribal patron, that's not a problem but for tribes like the Colymar or the Cinsina, it means your temple needs to stand on its own. That's a social problem, not a mythological one.

So even though most Elmal cultists embraced Monrogh's revelations, a few rejected it. Ironically, one could argue that makes Elmal the "purist" and "reactionary" cult. 

3 hours ago, Roko Joko said:

They hide their heads in the sand, and if they can't see you...

A raiding party of Ostrich Riders is much stealthier than a bunch of bison or high llamas. It is all a matter of context.

1 hour ago, daskindt said:

But how does someone that believes the Heortling Orlanthi myths reconcile the depiction of Elmal’s path away from the Fire Tribe with the Yelmalio myths?

Elmal rejects the Fire Tribe. After he is healed he sees the failures of stagnation of the Fire Tribe and Yelm’s court. He seeks out a better way and his brothers jealousy try to steal his light. Elmal learns humility and learns to serve others.

While you can say that Yelmalio endured and fought against many enemies in the darkness while Orlanth undertook the Lightbringers’ Quest, that version of the story is missing all the specific details of Elmal’s story. It’s missing Elmal’s growth from arrogant and prideful son of the Emperor into the loyal thane of the Orlanthi.

Yelmalio stopped being a complete enemy to Orlanth and fought against common foes is not nearly the same thing as Elmal’s journey and growth in the Heortling myths.

What convinces the Orlanthi to reevaluate their myths and replace them with versions where Yelmalio isn’t a loyal thane? What convinces them to leave Orlanthi society and customs behind?

Worth looking at the Heortling version of the same (GSB pg. 117):
 

"Elmal was a son of Yelm who became Orlanth's loyal steward. When Orlanth departed on his Lightbringers' Quest, he named Elmal to rule the world while he was gone. Elmal defended the last flickering lights of the world against Chaos and was wounded, battered, and weakened many times. Yet Elmal never faltered, and he survived as a last light in the Darkness until Orlanth and the other gods returned with the Dawn."

Same mythic event, just seen from a narrowly Orlanthi perspective (as is the version presented in SKH). What Monrogh saw was that event was part of the greater Yelmalio myth.