Jeff

Kanestal is the PHP title for Issaries (remember that Pure Horse People is a Pentan language and its roots are not even distantly related to Theyalan). And the vendref are not slaves. Their ancestors were enslaved, and they are bonded to the ground by the Pure Horse Folk. But Orlanth Thunderous is known to them, as is Orlanth Adventurous. Orlanth Rex is not there at all. 

But more than any deity, the Grazelanders are ruled by ERNALDA.  Yelm survives in the Grazelands by being part of the Earth Pantheon (as one of Ernalda's husband-protectors). 

The Pure Horse people outnumbered the initial settlers, and forced them to accept the arrangement. Of course the peasants would sometimes rebel, and then the Pure Horse People would kill the peasants. That was the context in which the FHQ arrived. The Yelm cult was determined to massacre the Orlanth cult among the settlers. Meanwhile, the Orlanthi kingdom of Tarsh was powerful, and the Orlanthi settlers were quickly growing to outnumber the Pure Horse People.

The FHQ defeated Yelm's representative and forced a compromise. The settlers would continue to exist but under the FHQ's protection. The settlers would give a portion of their harvest to the PHP, pay tribute, and not use the grazelands of the horse herds, plus a bunch of other rules. The Yelm cult would hold the positions of status and authority, but the peasants would not be molested as long as they followed the FHQ's rules.

4 hours ago, Sir_Godspeed said:

Both Solace  (Rokari) and Joy (Hrestoli) have both struck me as similar to Hindu-Buddhist Nirvana/Nibbana. Perhaps the former more than the latter, but I don't know.

Given the theistic focus of these two schools of Malkionism, Platonic henosis might be a better fit: unity and unification with the Absolute. Cessation of the self and its limitations and restrictions, in either case.

My understanding of Joy and Solace are both strongly influenced by Plotinus' henosis.

1 hour ago, Brootse said:

 

Thanks! A few follow-up questions:

Are all Sorcery spells with the 'ritual' tag "self-contained"? These would be Bind Elemental, Bind Spirit, Magic Point Enchantment, Open Seas, and Summon (species).

How many magic points does it take to cast self-contained spells when you don't know any of the techniques or Runes involved? 8 times the minimum mps perhaps? (ie. double the amount where you have only secondary knowledge)?

On page 275 in the Roleplaying in Glorantha it says that "In many cults, initiates may not become shamans or sorcerers." LM and CA have non-standard initiate requirements, but Issaries has the standard one. Would it be possible to edit the upcoming Gods of Glorantha book to clearly mention which cults allow their members to learn Sorcery?

Is the old Shapechange (Species) to (Species) coming back in some later book?

e: Are Ygg worshippers allowed to Open Seas?

ee: Is the Open Seas ritual taught only to Dormal initiates, or can lay members learn it too?

None of the spells in the core book are presented as self contained, as Dormal is not one of the cults presented in the core book.

The Gods and Goddesses book has so much information and new content in it that it will no doubt end many of the current debates and start a new generation of forum debates.

7 minutes ago, PhilHibbs said:

Why does it mean that? Do those cults forbid sorcery - and does that mean that a LM sorceror cannot also be an Orlanth initiate?

It means a LM sorcerer needs to worship Orlanth as an associated cult, which is of course permitted. 

17 minutes ago, Jeff said:

There are a few sorcery spells that are "self-contained". You learn the spell alone, without learning the fundamental techniques. Open Seas is one of those. The downside is that such knowledge does not give you any understanding of any other spells, techniques, or anything else. Malkioni will sneer at you for including all sorts of unnecessary superstitious gobbly-gook,  when actually a simple use of Water and Command contains what is necessary, once you understand the spell. 

It does mean that initiates of many popular cults can't Open the seas - Orlanth, Ernalda, etc. But LM, Issaries, and even CA are likely overrepresented within the Dormal community.

There are a few sorcery spells that are "self-contained". You learn the spell alone, without learning the fundamental techniques. Open Seas is one of those. The downside is that such knowledge does not give you any understanding of any other spells, techniques, or anything else. Malkioni will sneer at you for including all sorts of unnecessary superstitious gobbly-gook,  when actually a simple use of Water and Command contains what is necessary, once you understand the spell. 

As I was working on Gods and Goddesses today I needed to look up an old glorantha.com post and was struck how well it still fits together. Although maybe I would have been smarter to have done one on the Gods of the Doraddi, rather than add another layer to that.
----------

A snippet from an old Jrusteli account of Fonrit. I’d date this to about 890 ST:

Gods of Fonrit
In Fonrit, the people worship demigods who they say restored the Cosmic Court of the God Time. My research has determined that these demigods sought to  restore the Golden Age; I believe they were partially successful, but they also incorporated many Fifth Action degeneracies into their mythic matrix. Many rulers claim to be descended from one or more of these demigods, whom they call the Glorious Ones.

Garangordos is the ruling god, who restored Pamalt’s kingdom and enslaved the blue-skins. He is the god of the city rulers and the source of their authority.

The Fonritians revere Ehilm above all others; although Garangordos is the ruler of the gods, Ehilm directly attends the Invisible God, whom they call Ompalam. Although Ehilm is thought deaf to all entreaties, he worshiped in great ceremonies and pageants.

The Fonritians also worship Aether, Annilla, Asrelia, Ernalda, Gata, Larnste, Lodik, Worlath, Sramake, Tolat, Uleria, and Xentha, as several minor gods without any equivalent elsewhere in the Middle Sea Empire. They hate Eurmal, who they claim murdered Garangordos and blame him for any misfortune.

7 hours ago, jajagappa said:

While the 1593 date is noted in the Glorantha Sourcebook, RQG p. 128 has this note: "For over a century, the annual Lunar Kalikos Expedition has moderated the harsh winters."

Yeah, well the Glorantha Sourcebook date is correct. 

6 hours ago, Darius West said:

Agreed.  When the Kalikos heroquest is successful, which during the days of the Empire has been most years, then Glamour has warmer winters.  Should the Kalikos hero quest fail, then Glamour might get colder than Boldhome, but Boldhome will be cold and rainy most of the year, so on average, Boldhome will be colder during the hero wars, especially during the Great Winter.

Keep in mind that the Kalikos hero quest is a new thing. The first one was performed in 1593. It has changed the climate of Peloria significantly, but agricultural practices tend to be very conservative.

4 minutes ago, KingofElfland said:

Well, the art direction clearly implies warmth from somewhere. 

Which art direction? Of the Red Moon? The Red Moon as described in the Guide exists outside of the mundane world, and so its temperatures are not connected with those of lowland Peloria. 

For most of its history, Peloria has had very cold winters and hot summers. In the last two generations it has more mild winters, but still hot summers.

Boldhome has a cool subalpine temperature. Tuolumne Meadows (elevation 2,627 m) is cool subalpine, as is Yosemite Valley itself.

On 3/9/2019 at 4:46 AM, Julian Lord said:

It's often forgotten that the Red Moon is warm, and the closer you get to Glamour and the Crater, the warmer it is.

The Moon that's more like our own is the White Moon of the 4th Age.

Boldhome is unquestionably colder in Winter.

Doesn't sound very subalpine at those altitudes -- the RL subalps are far lower than that generally, and whilst the northerly subalps on the German side can be fairly cool, those on the Italian and French sides tend to be hot in summer and temperate in winter (with the Alps themselves varying in winter from place to place -- I live on an Alp, and snow here is a rarity).

But 1700M in elevation is 700M higher than Chamonix, which is bang on the Mont Blanc, which is of course itself the very highest point in the Alps.

It's an alpine ski resort altitude -- bearing in mind that many ski resorts are very warm places indeed most summers (though careful with those summer rains and summer storms which can get quite chilly).

Who says that the Red Moon is a source of warmth?

Gang - This is not the place or the forum to discuss Brexit itself. 

The Gorgorma cult is officially tolerated by the Lunar Empire, although it is usually discouraged and quietly suppressed by local rulers. It has some very powerful protectors within the Lunar Empire, so those local rulers need to tread very carefully.

10 hours ago, styopa said:

 

My suggestion would be that the product could be of course produced in books if people really want that...and/or offered as straight printed pages.  Chaosium could offer prepunched for either US 3 ring binder, or Leitz 2-hole binders (or whatever is common regionally) or both (if that's feasible) just unpunched....you can take it to Kinko's and get it drilled to whatever is your local preference for nearly nothing.  (Hell, you can have them top-drill it, so it flips up, like a legal pad, if you wanted)

This would a) massively save cost as covers/bindings are expensive and complicated, b) speed distribution (they could just send to various regional printers), and c) allow players to buy as elaborate/sturdy/expensive binders as they wish, or break the text however they like into pantheons...whatever.

I originally meant it humorously, because the cost of actually shipping binders would be WAY more expensive, but then with Oracle and Joerg's comments, I realized: it actually would be better to offer it without a binder.  (Further, by doing it this way players could get new bigger binders as needed.  ASL did the binder thing brilliantly...the problem was that a 2" binder seemed enough but by the end of all the expansions, the 2" original ASL binder cover wasn't thick enough and the sections didn't all fit...)

Plus, personally, I *far* prefer binders and ring-bound products to books books; while slightly less durable and nowhere near as aesthetically attractive, they lay flat and stay open...about the only thing the shitty crap AH paper books had as their advantage.

This is even setting aside the obvious advantage of rules in this format, where errata or expansions can be issued as a single reformatted page "replace page 77/78 with this correction".

It is not going to be made into a binder. Nor is it going to be laid out to support that. It will be a lovely hardcover book. If you want to print out the PDF and punch holes in it, you are welcome to do so.

Most buildings in Boldhome are made out of stone.  The dwarves built Sartar’s Palace, the West, East, and Top Pockets, the Wall, the Temple of Orlanth Adventurous and the Earth Temple, as well as several other temples. These buildings are architectural wonders, often two, three, or, in the case of the Tower of the Winds in Sartar’s Palace, even twenty stories high, all seamlessly carved out of the stone. Where masonry is used, it consists of precisely cut and shaped polygonal stones that fit without mortar. The stonework is finer than that of any other human settlement in Dragon Pass or the Lunar Provinces.

The dwarf-made Pockets are particularly remarkable. These buildings include residences, workshops, temples, and assembly halls, which were carved out of the stone cliffs, and all have access to water and sewage systems (including private toilets connected to the sewer network). Most buildings are approximately 15-20 meters square, with each floor divided into series of rooms intended for a family unit that include a sleeping area, a shrine, a central room with a cooking fire (ventilated by a chimney), and a water room. Multiple passages exist between these “family units”, and many buildings extend deep into the cliff. The result is a honeycomb-like maze of rooms. 

Most of the buildings in the bottomlands were built by Sartarites, not dwarfs (although they stole the secrets of stone masonry from the dwarfs). They are typically two or three stories high and square. The bottom floor is divided into three rooms, one of which is often a shop, rented by a merchant. The central area is a general cooking and eating room, with a fireplace. There is also a part for the servant’s quarters. Furniture depends on taste and budget. Most furnishings are modest with their grandparents’ styles still common since they made the stuff, or brought it from Sartar.

The second story is usually divided into one large room, often used for entertaining and for more servant sleeping, and a number of smaller ones, usually private rooms for family members and close household. It is common to have a guest room.

There are two fireplaces, one in the downstairs cooking area and one in the upstairs entertainment area. Most civilized houses have a ground floor room set aside as a privy; some even have access to the dwarf-built water and sewer system. Food storage is kept far from this room.

As for Boldhome, here's something out of a forthcoming book:

Climate

At 1700 meters in elevation, Boldhome has a cool subalpine climate. The peaks above Boldhome have snow year-round. The Killard Valley below Boldhome is significantly warmer, with a comparatively shorter winter. 

Because of its high elevation, Boldhome gets cold, snowy winters, but because of the Storm Bull winds blowing off Prax, it gets warm summers. Sea Season gets the most rain; while Earth and Darkness seasons are the driest. During the winter, Boldhome gets over 2 meters of snow.

 Most human structures here are built out of sturdy stone, and dwarf-made conduits drain the snow and water.

Boldhome Temperature And Precipitation

Total precipitation 74 cm, including 205 cm of snow. Snow remains in the upper slopes of the valley into early Fire Season.

2 minutes ago, RHW said:

Rain figures aren’t too different from what I’ve run IMG. Bit wetter in some places, but I always figured Tarsh and Talastar’s weather was more influenced by the Storm than the Sun. If most precipitation in the basin comes in Fire Season, that means not much snow. I picture Dara Happan precipitation as more L.A. than San Jose.

i suspect our real divergence is temperature range. 

Until the 1590s, the key factor is the winter winds blowing off Valind's Glacier in Darkness and Storm Seas, which is very cold. Lowland Peloria was covered in glaciers just a few thousand years ago. Yelm's presence makes agriculture possible and makes it hot in summer, but Peloria is traditionally very cold in winter. Some of Sheng Seleris's army movements  were possible because the Oslira used to regularly freeze over in Darkness season. 

So think inland continental climates. Cold winters, hot summers. Entekos blesses the summers in the Heartlands with gentle rain, but gets disrupted by the rebel gods with their infertile thunder and hail storms.

5 minutes ago, RHW said:

My wine vs beer debate with @Jeff made me realize we have a fundamental disconnect about the weather in Peloria. While of course, YGMV, he describes Peloria as similar in climate and plant life as the Upper Mississippi/Missouri Valley, and I've always thought of it being more akin to Spain or Southern France. Both are about the same latitude, but obviously there's a pretty big difference in the weather, both in terms of temperature range and humidity. My Peloria is more temperate and drier, Jeff's (I believe) is wetter with a more extreme range of temperatures.

Now based on geography, Jeff's view (and by extension the official Chaosium POV) makes a lot of sense. Peloria is the north central part of a continent roughly the size of the United States. There's a glacier sitting just off the map. The White Sea is ice-locked, etc. And Sartar is just to the west of a hot dry wasteland and could easily be a high desert, given the Rockwoods' significant rain shadow.

But... but... I don't know. That doesn't feel right to me. Dara Happa doesn't feel like it should be a cold place, normally. Nor does Darjin or Pelanda. I see ziggurats and togas and flat-roofed adobe and sandals and formation dependent infantry and none of that makes much sense in places with long cold winters, ample forests, and tons of rain. Dara Happa feels like a classic river flood plain civilization, dependent on the reliable Oslir for their water, not even bothering to sacrifice to any sort of rain or cloud god. In Dara Happa (and I think much of Peloria) river water + earth + sun = food. 

Meanwhile Sartar is boots and cloaks and long pants and forests and rain and storm gods. For Sartarites storms + earth + a bit of sun = food. They propitiate a god of winter (Peloria doesn't), they have a goddess of spring (does Peloria?), they seem to experience the full range of seasons. In Dark Season, they make no war (unless they honor Valind and then it's raidin' time!)

So my justification for my version of Glorantha is that the gods make the difference.  

In my Dragon Pass, Orlanth and Heler do not give two shits about a rain shadow. It rains a lot because they say it does. Valind doesn't care about latitude. Valind hides in the mountaintops most of the year, then claims his kingship in Dark Season because that's the deal Orlanth made with him.

In my Peloria, Yelm shines bright. He sends more heat to his beloved Dara Happa and the surrounding lands than the rest of the world. He's always moderated the climate there, except when he was dead. He does so still. Now from time to time, perhaps once a decade or so, Valind would beat Yelm back in a reenactment of the Lesser Darkness and Peloria would have a snowy winter.  But even that doesn't happen anymore, because Yelm has now has help. The Lunar Icebreaker cult, for the last 30 years, has made sure that Valind never wins. Even while snow covers Pent and Fronela and Ignorance, Winter never truly comes to Peloria. (Well except Talastar, and Yelm doesn't love them, so there.)

The point is, in my Peloria, hoplites can march in sandals and togas make perfect sense and I get my Lunar wine and olives and posca.

Because really it's all about the posca.

So how's the weather in your Peloria?

 

 

I suggest starting here: 

When I get a chance I will post the temperatures for Peloria as well.

3 minutes ago, Sir_Godspeed said:

Not to beat a dead horse from the architecture thread, but this does raise a lot of questions regarding the flat-topped, mud-brick houses we usually see associated with the Pelorians, and the virtual monopoly of skirts/tunics and sandals over trousers, hose, braies/braccae and so forth. I understand summers are dry and hot, but continental winters don't exactly lend themselves too well to pseudo-Sumerian lifestyles/aesthetics.

In summer you wear very little. In winter you wrap yourself up. It is worth looking at Hittite attire for example (which was functionally similar to other Mesopotamian attires).

And yet, it is COLD in the central Anatolian highlands. Colder than Berlin in mid-winter. . 

12 minutes ago, EricW said:

I think if we think in terms of game play, we should probably keep "detect enemies" simple. If you cast "detect enemies", the spell detects enemies. I don't think it is necessary to nail the definition down too much, it detects people the players would reasonably identify as enemies, either now or later in the scenario - unless there is a good plot reason why they aren't enemies at the time the spell was cast, but became enemies later.

Having said that I think there is a case for suggesting illuminates get a pass from "detect enemies" style spells. Orlanthi think illuminates are chaos, so if you allow Orlanthi to sense illuminates using "detect enemies", you've effectively given them a "detect illuminates" spell, which doesn't seem right at all. 

I'd recommend reading the Detect Enemies spell description on page 259. I think it resolves the concern.

On 2/21/2019 at 4:16 AM, EricW said:

Arkat the Destroyer's illuminated followers infiltrate chaos cults like local Thanatar nests, learn their secrets, then use that information to help destroy the temple and kill the chaos worshippers.

How do Lightbringers and chaos fighting cults like Storm Bulls and Zorak Zoran react to this kind of skullduggery? Is there any possibility of at least limited tolerance for their activities? I mean, the Arkati are illuminates, they give power to chaos during the infiltration stage, but they help destroy chaos, providing information which might not be obtainable by other means, helping to gain access to hidden temples, improving the odds of success, helping to ensure none of the chaos scum survives the raid.

Without them, there would be more chaos. 

I certainly never heard of the cult of Arkat infiltrating cults like Thanatar. Although Arkat is NOT covered in the Gods and Goddesses book, his presence is certainly there. There's basically two cultic approaches to Arkat in the Third Age:

Arkat as a mystery cult. These cults are extremely secretive about what they believe, their initiation rites, and their ritual practices. They might march through the city in procession and offer praise to the Arkat, but then they go into their underground temple to perform their actual rites. Not even lay members know what goes on in there. Maybe they venerate the Invisible God, maybe they sacrifice humans, maybe they consort with Broos. Who knows? It is a mystery cult!

Arkat as the Sorcery God. Arkat took the secrets of sorcery from Brithos or Seshnela (pick one) and taught it to the cult. Otherwise it is similar to the mystery cult - everyone knows they practice sorcery, but otherwise their beliefs and rites are a mystery.

Other cults generally distrust Arkat. His cultists are weird, secretive, and most people have stories about how Arkat betrayed them over a thousand years ago ("Sold our ancestors to trolls," "performed human sacrifice in the Temple of the Invisible God," "allied with barbarians and monsters," etc.). These stories are well-known to everyone. The fact that the Arkati don't talk about what they believe only adds to the distrust.

5 minutes ago, svensson said:

That is part of what I'm getting at.

Could it be that the errors made in the reassembly of Sedenya's spirit and it's rebirth at Teelo Estara have made the resulting being less potent than she needed to be to ascend to Goddess-hood? Would this less than optimal result have required the new being to resort to Illumination and/or the Chaos taint in order to gather sufficient power to challenge the Compromise?

Could be. Might also be that Chaos was necessary in order to create a new goddess out of the many incomplete and broken fragments of the God Time Moon. After all Chaos is the source of Creation.

7 hours ago, RHW said:

We know rune levels for certain cults have dietary restrictions and requirements, and Humakti and Yelmalian geases can also impose restrictions, but what are the wider dietary restrictions/cultural taboo foods in Glorantha? What foods do the various cultures consider "unclean?"

For example, I'm pretty sure Orlanthi don't eat goat and likely don't eat cat. They'd probably get queasy at the idea of eating bugs, including ham beetles and other insect livestock raised by the trolls, though freshwater crawfish and probably okay.

Praxians don't eat horse. Balazarings probably don't eat dog. The Pure Horse People don't eat cow, right?

Do Odayalings eat bear like the Ainu or Sami or forbid it?

Any other examples come to mind?

 

The Heortling Orlanthi (ie., those that come from Kethaela) have dietary restrictions around goat and cat. They eat beetles, shellfish, fish, snails, and you name it. Yinkin forbids cat eating, Odayla does not forbid bear-eating.

The Praxian, as you mentioned, don't eat horse. The Pure Horse People don't eat cow. 

Lower class Pelorians will eat anything. Upper class Dara Happans consider many food types impure: invertebrates (tainted by Darkness), dog (same reason), many types of salt-water fish (note that they don't have access to salt-water), and probably a long list of other things as long as my arm. And during the Fourth Wane, all of that got ignored and everyone in Peloria ended up eating dirt (the lowest of low insults).

8 hours ago, RHW said:

I think we're mostly on the same page. I just think grape growing and wine production in Sartar is Colymar's "special thing" and the rest of the tribes produce and drink beer in general, and mead or grain spirits when celebrating or conducting religious ceremonies. This would be especially true during the Occupation, with Colymar in full collaborator mode. Buying their wine would be seen by many as aiding and abetting the enemy. Often, what one chooses to drink can be a political statement, not just an issue of taste. 

And finally, when I try to imagine what Kallyr would serve when entertaining guests vs. what Jar-eel would serve, my imagination goes to beer or mead for Kallyr (with lamb, mutton, or beef, game meats, hard cheese, dark breads, and cold-temperature friendly vegetables like leaks, rhubard, garlic, and kale, served with salt and butter)  and wine for Jar-eel (with Oslir river fish, stewed goat, corn tortillas, rice, beans, cilantro* for a normal meal and much fancier stuff for a feast, all with lots of olive oil and garum). 

 

*Pelorians love cilantro, but because of a Godtime curse, to Orlanthi it tastes like soapy puke. 

And here's the difference in perspective - I see the Sartarite warriors and priests sitting around their king's central open hearth (think a megaron rather than a long house), drinking from a communal bowl of undiluted wine. They eat stews (mainly lamb pork, beefalo, and in many areas fish including salmon) seasoned with spices, plums, etc, or meat roasted on skewers, or smoked meat. Lots of meat, lots of cheese, with flat bread, crushed and boiled grain, beans, peas, etc. We actually have a huge list of recipes.

When the Sartarites think of high cuisine, they don't look north - they look south towards Esrolia. Spices, pork, wine, fish, you name it. Esrolia has always been agriculturally rich, but for two generations it has been the center of a second cultural exchange between Kethaela and far-flung places like Kralorela, Seshnela, Teshnos, Telos, and Pamaltela. It is the New Orleans, Lisbon, Venice, Marseilles, etc. of Genertela - the gateway to the rest of the world. Most high-status Sartarites have contact and connection with Esrolia, particularly those connected with the Sartar dynasty. You want garum? It is probably in Kethaela. You want chili peppers? Kethaela has it! Semi-tropical climate, but in a rain shadow, plenty of water, unbelievably rich volcanic soil, and with access to anything in the rest of the world, Esrolia is where you have exciting cuisine.

The Lunar Heartlands, in comparison, is pretty dull. It has its Red-Haired Caravan with Kralorela (actually Ignorance), but that is more expensive and lower volume than the sea-borne traffic from Kethaela. Jar-eel can probably have whatever she wants from wherever she wants, but for most urban Heartlanders, staples are rice and maize (tacos, hominy, corn fritters, tamales, etc.), fish from the Oslir, fowl, pork, etc., drunk down with beer and rice wine. Red wine is imported from the south for special occasions and is likely in great demand by the wealthy.

Remember, the Lunar Empire is NOT culturally much like the Roman Empire. It is more like an empire based on the Upper Mississippi than a Mediterranean peninsula.

48 minutes ago, svensson said:

Danfive was volunteered to attempt the most dangerous part of Sendenya's Quest, at which he was only partially successful. I have found nowhere where it is explained exactly what that mission /role /whatever was, but it is clear that, while he didn't succeed, he succeeded enough to redeem a life previously given over to evil. In my personal opinion, it was Danfive Xaron's failure that required Sedenya's reformed spirit to use the help of Chaos to complete her apotheosis.

But I admit that I'm probably wrong about that.

I'd suggest that it was only partially successful from DX's initial goals. The new book gives a ton of insight into each of the Seven Mothers. 

And is worth keeping in mind that none of the Seven Mothers are directly tainted by Chaos. 

The Red Goddess on the other hand.....