Jeff

4 minutes ago, jajagappa said:

Not correct - he appears in both GRoY and the Guide, so he is fully canonical. 🙂

GRoY notes (p.9) Veskerele. God of the Second Hell. Shown on Gods Wall IV-6.

In reference to the latter, he is among the deities of the 4th Row, the deities of Below: (p.62) Veskerele. The faceless God of Second Hell. 

The latter repeats in the Guide (p.678) IV-6. Veskerele. The faceless God of the Second Underworld and Keeper of the Second Hell.

He dwells in: Veskerelgat. The God Caves. These are the places that can be reached only by heroes, holy men, madmen, and fools. The lesser deities of the Earth live here.

I don't think Veskerele is worshiped by thieves.

Here is a discussion Kalin and I had about art history that might shed a bit more light

The Dawn

At the Dawn there were basically two cultural centers - Dragon Pass (the Theyalans) and Peloria.

Dragon Pass

The Theyalans had a tradition of "realistic" art thanks to the Architect and the Artist (both of whom were active in the Holy Country). Moreover, they had access to dwarf crafters. Dragonewts and elves. Whatever this "Theyalan style" was it got spread all over the place, but also was probably really diverse. Individual artists did things in individual ways.

Peloria

Meanwhile in Peloria, you start with court art that is intended to appeal to the Sons of the Sun. Lots of gold, horses, sun disks, etc. And it should contrast with Theyalan art by not being realistic or naturalistic.
So very formal, very precise and almost abstracted at times.
When Dara Happa is formed, the new empire takes some of the ideas of the Theyalans and starts making sculptures of important gods and rulers. Who are the same thing. 

And they look at the Gods Wall for style. Because of course there are Pre-Dawn relics. Just like in Dragon Pass - we have relics from ancient times. Broken statues of unknown gods.
You also start getting more and more concentrated wealth in the later First Age. Temples can really go nuts commissioning artists.
And with the World Council, the Theyalans and the Pelorians can hire each other. So from Ralios to the Redlands, Peloria, Dragon Pass, and Maniria all have some common influences.
Regional differences, but also common influences.
So a rich Yelm temple might hire artists, only for them to later work for a Heortling king or Orlanth temple. So a cross-pollination of symbols and styles.
That means is that we don't go back to the First Age to get differences in artistic styles in the Third Age. The First Age is a shared language.
 

Second Age

So everything collapses at the end of the First Age. War and poverty. A collapse, which in turn leads to reduction in complexity in artwork. A Dark Age from about 450 to 600  or so.
In Dragon Pass, you end up with a vibrant civilisation around 700. But they don't have the dwarfs around to help them. And a lot more trollish influences.
So imagine something less "realistic" and powerfully primitive. Basic shapes, essentially. But done with lots of wealth.

This is people working off copies of copies, without the skills to do it.

Dragon Pass

Now then around 800 things change. The Dragon Pass kingdom gets REALLY wealthy. And obsessed with esoteric symbolism. And is in contact with the Middle Sea Empire. And things get sensuous and baroque. This is the formation of what we call the Esrolian style. Think the baroque art of medieval India. 

Whereas the MSE is more Hellenistic baroque. Very idealised baroque work..

Peloria

Meanwhile, in Peloria thanks to the Carmanians you get a much more austere idealised form.
We are of course talking about the richer temples and rulers. Smaller temples are left behind. So the Theyalans (or at least Esrolians) still maintain some of that stiffer, older look to it. And villages still do stuff like they always did.

But Carmania establishes a much less baroque style in Peloria. This is one of the big splits. Which, in turn, echoes the divide that existed before the First Age too.
Where the EWF is going for Indian baroque, the Carmanian and Dara Happans are going for something more austere and idealised. More stylized and austere styles in the north, more "naturalistic" and descriptive art in the south. To put it roughly, the Pelorians evoke ideas, the Theyalans depict things.

EWF

The MSE is providing influence in Esrolia - you get rich temples hiring crafters from the MSE for technique skill. But they are super cosmopolitan. (With infinitely more nuance than that of course). And might throw in weird references from Kralorela or Fonrit or Seshnela or whatever.
So in Esrolia, you basically establish super-baroque. Great technique, lush symbolism, but very naturalistic and sensuous.
In Dragon Pass and South Peloria, it is as baroque, but less sensuous and more abstract and symbolic. Here the influence of the dragons is the greatest. 
And in Peloria, it is more austere, idealised, and formal. Also they have the Gods Wall to go back on.
With Dragon Pass in the middle, being a mixture of both, yet also adding its own draconic twist just to make things unique:

• In Esrolia, she is depicted as this lush and sensual dancing woman, surrounded by a dazzling array of flowers, grains, husband protectors, worshipers, lesser goddesses. She overwhelms with splendor to the point where your senses can't even take it all in.
• In Peloria, she is very formal and strict. She looks much like the other goddesses, just more so. Or maybe she is naked and the others are clothed.
• In Dragon Pass, she is looser than Peloria, dancing like she is in Esrolian artwork. There are still goddesses, husbands and flowers around her, but there is also other stuff. Strange runes, which almost look like hers, but aren't. The snakes around her look...odd, and not quite right. And some of the flowers do not look entirely real.

In Peloria she is very formalised.  But in Dragon Pass – it is something which anyone from around them, let alone a previous or later Age would just stare at and go "What even is going on here?"

Now during the time that the EWF rules Dara Happa, this style gets imposed there as well. But it doesn't catch on. Too weird and uncultured and not properly structured 

The Closing
Then the seas Close. Esrolia is cut off from the MSE, and its art loses some of its technical brilliance, and gets even more baroque and less understandable.
Meanwhile in Peloria, the Carmanians react against the most obviously EWF stuff, but they are conquering and expanding, so they are hiring artists trained by the EWF but being told Be More Formal!

Third Age

And then comes a long period of war that culminates in the Dragonkill War. Which divides the world into Kethaela and Peloria.

Kethaela and Sartar
Kethaela starts with that late Second Age Esrolian style. Sensuous and baroque. Though regressed a bit and gets worse and worse at it. Since you don't have the actual artisans present anymore.
Until Belintar shows up. And Belintar oversees a rich artistic renaissance. And he's of course a thorough God Learner, with baroque references on top of baroque references. So the style remains mostly the same, but revitalized. Not "realistic" but symbolic and mythological.
And he draws on the Esrolians, the Heortlings, the Caladralanders, the God Forgotites, the trolls, and the dwarfs to create a visual melting point. And the Kethaelans get their technical skills back. The way the ornamentation and detailing is made is changed as a result of communication from the dwarfs of Gemborg. Intricate decoration.
At some point, the style is a reference to a reference to itself. So whereas the Second Age stuff was naturalistic verging on weird abstractions (like in the eyes and so on), under Belintar, temple architecture was naturalistic but not formalised. Belintar tries to recreate that very spread out and universal First Age Style.
And of course this just goes nuts with the Opening. Because the Holy Country is now stupid rich. 

Now when Sartar gets settled, they bring this artistic tradition with them. Sartar and his heirs hire artists from the Holy Country. But Orlanth is the focus. It is not as baroque. It is more martial, more masculine. And generally technically cruder, except for the dwarf-made stuff from Sartar's time. Which is technically superb - even better than in the Holy Country.
It is more masculine, more martial, more violent. And even more individualistic. Artists are very much encouraged to put their own spin on things. The overall style is there, of course, you can't really escape it.

Peloria

But, in Peloria, things are different. The EWF style are gone. And we have a long dark age.
The Carmanians embrace a formal brutalism style. Them and their gods triumphing atop piles of dead. Think Assyrian palace style. Scenes of war and scenes of authority.

The Lunar-Dara Happan revolt comes out of that tradition but tries to turn it upside down. With a naked goddess being the equal of a stern but benevolent Yelm. Standing on top of a pile of dead Carmanians and Pentans.
But also we start getting new esotericism. It could be that the Red Goddess was not even initially depicted as a deity.
But just as a woman. Deliberately smaller than the gods and rulers. Naked and human, but superior to the immortal gods. And she is not depicted in a formal manner. Idealised yes, but relaxed and in dance.
The Yelm cult takes its cues from here as well. Yelm gets less formalised, although continues to be idealised. Maybe even more idealised.
As the Lunar Empire gets richer, the art gets better, and becomes what we now call the Old Lunar style.
We get a century and a half of this Old Lunar style. And then in 1375 the Pentans come. And for nearly a century, the Pentans reduce Peloria to grasslands. People are eating mud and each other.
The Lunar Empire consists of the besieged center of Glamour, some barbaric kingdoms in the south, and the Western Reaches aka Old Carmania.
Lunar art becomes cruder, poorer, and more emphatic. There is now no difference between Lunar and Dara Happan. There is simply Lunar-Pentan-Slave. Empathic in subject and very removed from the concerns of the world. Because in the real world Sheng Seleris rules. Minor victories or stalemates against Sheng Seleris are monumental triumphs!

In a surprise, the Red Emperor defeats Sheng Seleris and confines him to a Lunar hell. The Pentans collapse. And now the Lunar Empire is able to resettle the New Grasslands of Peloria. This is where Lunar art comes from. Restore and Rebuild. New towns need to be built. Old cities need to be rebuilt.
All quickly, all at the same time, and from the Oronin River to the Arcos. From the White Sea to the gates of Alkoth. Every town gets laid out more or less the same, with a temple complex to the Red Goddess, Yelm, Dendara, Lodril, and whoever else. All by the same architects and artists.

And although directly supervised by the Red Emperor, Great Sister, or Hon-eel, it is initially done fast and on the cheap. And some a lot better than others.
So we now have within the empire basically four styles. Three are old and can be found in 1. Glamour and the Tripolis, in the 2. Western Reaches, and in 3. Jillaro. But 4. is the most widespread and common. The New Lunar style or the Lunar Heartland style.
Towns are built quick. And cheap. Art is initially easy to reproduce. Very stylised and formalised. But over the next century and a half, the empire gets richer and richer and richer. So this New Lunar style gets built upon, embellished, upgraded. More elaborate and more technically skilled. But it is still based off that original post-Sheng style. But now rich Lunar priests demand that the artist display technical virtuosity and work in all sorts of Lunar motifs and esoteric references.
During Sheng's occupation, the shift towards more empathic and non-real world related themes in art also brings in another thing. The artwork starts to depict Yelm, Lodril, Dayzatar, and all the others as idealized and perfect. These almost calming presences in the world, a source of stability amongst the chaos and horror of Sheng’s rule.

Yelm is no longer that stiff, formal, restricted thing on the Gods Wall. He is still that yes, but to the masses he is also the benevolent sun god. And the Red Goddess' divine father. 

As the occupation ends, as more art gets made and the more and more money gets pumped into it, this transforms.
The New Gods, the seven mothers, Etyries , Hon-eel, etc. are depicted in a sensual, loose and free style. They are beautiful and relatable.
The Celestial Gods meanwhile are beautiful, yet perfect. They are not sensual, they are not mere mortal things. They are the perfect geometry of the world, the cosmic order.
A depiction of Hon-eel or Jar-eel or Etyries shows you an idealized reflection of you, the mortal viewer.
They were born, they suffered, they transcended. Like the Goddess herself.
The depiction of Yelm shows you something else though. something still beautiful, but in a different way.
It is the beauty of perfect harmony. The beauty of the cosmic order of the Golden Age.

So let's move this forward a tiny bit more. By the 7th Wane, the Lunar Empire is ruled by Yelm illuminates of the Red Goddess cult.
For generations. They are self-referential by now.
In the sense that their art needs to communicate with them and not so much other audiences.
So in our magnificent great temple in Glamour, with gold and gems and glass, abstract depictions of Yelm and statues of Apollo, we have this crude little gold sun disk on a horse from the Dawn.

:

The lower CHA stats for many creatures is not a cut and paste but a deliberate decision. Some creatures are simply not as blessed by divine favour as humans (and some are more so).

The weather in Dragon Pass is provided there in the rules book. For some RW comparisons:

Clearwine: Innsbruck or Sofia (although Clearwine gets more precipitation)

Boldhome: Davos

Furthest:  Munich Germany, Walla Walla Washington

Nochet: Venice, Charlotte, Washington DC.

Prax: Santa Fe

10 minutes ago, davecake said:

Among the modern Orlanthi, it’s fairly distinct, I think. 

God-Talkers and priests are fully integrated into the sacred life of their clan/tribe, and usually economically as well - there are hides to support the temples, god-talkers care for a specific shrine, and so on. Shamans tend much more to be outsiders, strange weirdos living outside of community lands. Or living as part of smaller minority groups within the community. 

And they wear different hats. See that Storm Voice over there? He has an awesome hat that says, "Here is an important person who speaks for the gods." See that shaman over there? He has a crazy person's hat that says, "I'm a crazy person who talks to dead people and rocks."

8 minutes ago, ChalkLine said:

YGMV but I'd use the 'one adventure per season' strictly as a recommendation only. If the campaign demands it the players may well be nose-to-the-grindstone for seasons on end

That is pretty much exactly what the rules state on page 137: 

Generally, one adventure occurs per season. The “one adventure per season” suggestion emphasizes the fact that adventures are extraordinary affairs, and that the adventurers have lives to lead. Much of an adventurer’s time is not their own. Farmers must work the fields, warriors must guard their lords, and even priests must spend most of their time worshiping the gods and managing their temple. 

The default assumption is one "extraordinary affair" (whatever that means) should happen in a season, and that otherwise the adventurer is doing the stuff they need to be doing as part of their community. That "adventure" might take place over several days or it might be spread out over the whole season. The goal is to not encourage daily tracking of player activities as RQ3 did and to let game time pass in a campaign, so that events can take place and the campaign can unfurl.

15 hours ago, Ali the Helering said:

Something along the lines of

Horse man.  I-GO-A-DA-RA, or Igowadara

Cattle man GO-U-A-DA-RA or Gouwadara

Sheep man PO-A-DA-RA or Powadara

as a rough guess.  Possibly better rendered as Igowandaras, Gowandaras and Powandaras, but I am far from sure....

Yep. And if we wanted a purely Gloranthan set of titles, we can guess that the Orlanthi use the following (I am not sure whether Theyalan language is gendered or not, so am just using "man" as the default for person even though that is probably incorrect):

Free man - this is a full member of the community, male or female. These households do not need to serve someone else to survive.

Unfree man - this is someone who needs to serve someone else to survive.

Horse man - this is a member of the martial aristocracy, who is given land and/or livestock by others so that they might be full-time professional warriors.

House man or hall man - this is a personal bodyguard of a high status person. I increasingly use "palace" instead of "hall" but the terms are basically synonymous. "Big House" might be best.

God-talker - this is somebody who serves as a part-time holy person. They speak "to" the gods.

God-voice - this is somebody who serves as a full-time holy person.  They speak "for" the gods.

Wyter-voice - this is the leader of a clan or kinship group. Also called Chief God Voice for the kinship group.

War Lord - this the tribal ruler. 

Earth queen - this is the high priestess of the Ernalda cult.

Storm King's voice - this is the tribal ruler of the Rex subcult. 

And so on. Some of these terms were around since the Dawn or even the God Time (free, unfree, god-talker, god-voice, war lord), others are later developments (horse man, hall man, Storm King's voice, etc.)

12 hours ago, M Helsdon said:

There was a smiley face indicating the post was tongue-in-cheek.

However, it also served to illustrate that virtually all European societies prior to modern times tended to very roughly the same social levels and distinctions. This is also true to a degree on a wider level, and can probably be projected onto most Indo-European cultures reliant on farming.

This is absolutely correct. "Free" citizen status exists in many cultures, alongside "semi-free" tenants, and a semi-hereditary martial aristocracy. The Cambridge Companion to the Aegean Bronze Age (ed. Cynthia W. Shelmerdine), Wolfram's "The Roman Empire and its Germanic Peoples," Auboyer's "Daily Life in Ancient India", Bryce's "Life and Society in the Hittite World", all describe similar social classes. And not just Indo-European. You see similar social categorisations in the Aramaic-speaking tribes of Mesopotamia (a great academic source is the anthology "The Babylonian World" edited by Gwendolyn Leick). As an editorial decision, we largely use modern English words to describe things like noble, warrior, or house bodyguard, rather than (mis)use Anglo-Saxon or other terms. It makes it easier to explain what something is, causes less confusion, and allows the status to become Gloranthan rather than a transplant from a real world culture.

16 hours ago, Sir_Godspeed said:

I've seen about half a million for Imperial Rome a few times - including the immediate areas around the city walls, but I'm not a scholar or anything. That is a very high number though - Paris and London wouldn't come close until the Modern Era.


Also, in terms of desnity - Pavis is clearly a massive outlier due to its (bizarre) origin. More like a city and its own integrated hinterland than just a city. Frankly it's astonishing that they had enough men to man the walls regularly. At least I suppose they didn't have to do maintenance on the walls, given their magical origin.

One of the reasons that I rely on McEvedy is that he estimates urban population by measuring the built-up are within a settlement and multiplying it by the best estimates of population density. Outside of the tiny sub-field of ancient population estimates, pretty much every other scholar (including scholars I have tremendous respect for) just forward estimates that were forwarded from other sources. 

And yes, Pavis is definitely an outlier, but it is included because it is useful to keep in mind that the Big Rubble is bigger even than metropolises like Nochet. Of course, relatively little of the Big Rubble is built-up ruins - the majority of the Rubble is either open land (Huntland, Big Grazing) or wooded (the Garden).

The clan or tribe assigns land to a thane. The thane and their family might farm it directly, or they might rent it out to half-free sharecroppers who give half the crop (what most adventurers do). The same system that has likely existed in much of the world for thousands of years. When the thane dies, usually a member of his family is able to prove their worthiness to continue carrying out the thane's duties (which generally is what the community prefers), but the community could allocate that to a new family (uncommon but it does happen). 

When someone dies in an Orlanthi clan, the land doesn't usually get redistributed - their family pushes to have the land kept within that kinship group. Assuming the kinship group is reasonably well-regarded by their peers, and reasonably competent, that is precisely what usually happens. But sometimes, the community decides to upset the apple cart and reallocated the land. Certain offices have customary land associated with it - so in Apple Lane there are a bunch of orchards that are allocated to support the Thane.

Jeff

2 hours ago, Brootse said:

So Gloranthan cities would be significantly less densely populated than Terran cities.

Actually I have them more densely populated than most ancient world cities are estimated to be. But keep in mind, the numbers thrown around for ancient city populations are absurd. The best analysis I've seen suggests that at its peak Rome had a population of about 200,000 and not the one million often thrown around. Alexandria hit about 100,000 at its peak. Londinium was maybe 7,000 (and thus had a population density about a third of Furthest).  

A few notes on the Torkani:

Argan Argar is the tribal patron god. He is worshiped as a consort of Ernalda, as is Orlanth. Humakt is the most important war god, although Storm Bull is also popular. All the Lightbringers are worshiped. 

Their Rex cult is unique - as the tribal leaders need to worship Argan Argar in conjunction with Orlanth Rex.

Also we have replaced "carl" with "free" (a literal translation of the term btw) and "cottar" with "tenant" (I was going to use "half-free" but reconsidered it).

If you notice, we have downplayed the terms "weapons-thane" or "housecarl" in RQG. Instead we have substituted "noble" and "bodyguard" (in fact, I am not sure whether "housecarl" ever appears in the book. Nobles in Orlanthi society include the martial aristocracy called "thanes", which evolved out of the priesthood in the Second Age. During this time, it was discovered that an armed militia of farmers and herders could be overcome by a smaller band of elite troops. Chieftains use companions to fulfill this martial role among the community instead of the priests. Land and herds are assigned to support these petty nobles - in exchange, they report to the local ruler and are expected to protect their community.

Important people also maintain bodyguards as part of their personal retinue. A high status bodyguard might also be a thane, with lands and herds of their own. Or the bodyguard might just be a type of mercenary who serves for pay. 

4 hours ago, Septimus Kendaro said:

@Jeff On that note, how much responsibility would a thane have then. Say, the thane of Apple Lane?  I assume they'd have some responsibilities but less than a chief.  And is there a particular structure for how thanes relate to clan chiefs and to tribal kings?  I'd guess thanes are the core military "class" for a clan but do they have responsibilities aside from that in Orlanthi culture?

A thane is a full-time warrior supported by others. Their responsibility is to defend the people, which carries along with it the right to exercise military leadership and authority on behalf of whatever clan or tribe the thane serves. Because they are important, wealthy, and respected for their prowess, the people they defend tend to defer to them.

The mechanics of heroquesting essentially boil down to three things:

1. What is a heroquest? Thematically and narratively what does it include?

2. What is the landscape of Gloranthan mythology? This one sounds weird, but it is basically just a mythic toolkit that lets you treat the God Time like any other sandbox setting.

3. How do I handle heroquest rewards? What does it mean within the RQ rules to be a Hero? 

The first two things don't have many mechanics associated with them - they are more or less a toolkit of concepts and ideas for the gamemeaster. The third is mechanical, and nicely supplements the existing RQG rules.

Greenbrass didn't make the map unfortunately, as it was too small and would have made the Nymie Vale too congested. It will be appearing soon. 

However, you can see its locations here, on the road from Clearwine to Old Man:

2 minutes ago, Grievous said:

So yeah, PLENTY of adventures for the chiefs/kings to do, if you tailor them for the responsibilities of the position.

Yes. Orlanth is the god of heroes after all. In Orlanthi culture, leaders need to prove their right to lead by example - and primarily in a martial manner. Chiefs, kings, etc. are under tremendous pressure to display their prowess, which is a great opportunity for adventure.

12 hours ago, M Helsdon said:

There are heavily overgrown crannogs in Sartar, according to The Coming Storm. Don't know who built them, or when.

Correction: the Heortlings built them to avoid Palangio.

Yeah, over 1200 years ago.

In the Third Age, the closest thing to a crannog in Sartar are the Duck villages in the Marsh.

An Orlanthi clan chief has three roles. The chief is:

1. The chief priest of Orlanth and the other clan patrons for that clan. They perform sacrifices, oversee rituals, and keep the gods on the clan's side. Often the chieftain follows the lead of other priests and god-talkers, but at the end of the day, the chief is the apex of the clan temple hierarchy. 

2. The local village headman, who needs to resolve disputes about land, herds, and rivalries. 

3. A local warleader who needs to continually prove his or her right to lead through deeds, gifts, and action. This means leading the fight against trolls, fighting those broos that are plaguing the hilltop pastures, even leading attacks on others to get booty or vengeance.

Roles 1 and 2 are usually most important, but there are plenty of heroic chiefs who emphasise 3. 

The tribal king also has several roles:

1. The high priest of Orlanth Rex for the tribe. In Sartar, the tribal king is also bound to the Prince as the king of the Rex cult. The tribal king presides over sacrifices and rituals, does what the tribal gods demand, and so on. Usually full-time Storm Voices perform most of the actual work.

2. The war leader for the tribe. The tribal king has to constantly prove their right to lead through deeds, gifts, and action. That can include performing quests, fighting enemies, leading their bodyguards to fight tough foes, leading the tribal army in times of war, etc.

3. Judge of disputes between the communities of the tribe. Temples and clans dispute land, herds, rights, privileges, and much more. The tribal king is expected to resolve this, although some disputes get kicked up to the Prince.

4. The voice of the tribe with outsiders. The tribal king speaks on behalf of the tribe with regard to outsiders - other tribes, foreigners, even the Prince.

On 8/27/2018 at 8:45 PM, metcalph said:

The Uitaros and the Bateri (tribes rather than clans) are shown on the Wane Maps of the Glorantha Sourcebook.

They also disappear as tribes at some point in the Third Wane. Lunar Tarsh is not organised along tribal lines. The cities serve as administrative centres for the local region - and have effectively replaced the old tribes. Clans continue to endure, of course, but they are much less geographically defined.

Wearing my Creative Director hat, this is a complaint I have with a lot of material submitted to us - names get used because they appeared many centuries or even millennia before. Tribes and political entities disappear in Glorantha. All of the old Heortling tribes disappeared in the early Second Age - not because the people disappeared, but because those tribes no longer served a useful purpose and were supplanted by something else. Now old names do get recycled - some Lhankor Mhy scholars insist on calling the Grazelands "Koroltesland" or Sartar "Orgorvaltesland" or "Storn" or whatever, just as Magyarország gets called Hungary by outsiders and in the early modern era literary pundits called the area "Pannonia." 

1 hour ago, Sir_Godspeed said:

 

EDIT: Please pardon my response - I mistook this entire thread for being new, and not just the latest post. Feel free to ignore this.

 

It does help make the Dwarves more sympathetic - something which I personally am certainly very much in need for, given that the current Mostali lore is... not hugely approachable (no offense to the writers, I just "need" some emotional resonance to be able to sympathise and root for a race, and I can do that for Aldryami, Uz, etc, but I struggle to do so for the Dwarfs as they currently are presented.)

 

Aren't there some enslaved Dwarves in the Brass Mountains in Peloria - or am I mixing them up with the Third Eye Blue?

Dwarves are sympathetic to me (not so much to Greg). They see the broken ruins of the world and they work tireless to fix it. They see (or at least have been taught about) the once perfect dance of the cosmic spheres, the Golden Age where everything worked. And now look at it. The Spike - Mostal's masterpiece and the cosmic support beam - is gone and destroyed. Nothing works right, and entropy and Time wears everything down. And the mortal races squabble over the ruins of the cosmos.

Weep for our poor Mostali.

KoDP was heavily over-reliant on Anglo-Saxon England and Iron Age Scandinavia art references. I don't see the Heortlings like that at all - their cultural orientation and origin is the Holy Country, not Northern Europe. Think Thrace not Iceland. That doesn't mean you won't see wattle-and-daub used but it is more likely to look like:

There is a much broader architectural world to draw on than just northern Europe.

21 minutes ago, Sir_Godspeed said:

@Jeff

When you say that the Vingkotlings built their fortresses/palaces in a circular fashion, is this meant in an elevated position, or also on flat areas? Was there a particular kind of architectural style (in terms of decoration/construction method) that was utilized, or was it more varied depending on local materials or styles? I am especially thinking about the Cyclopean buildings style, with large blocks of stone put together without mortar, versus styles that uses smaller stones (like Great Zimbabwe), or even bricks (bricks seem more like a Dara Happan thing , due to being associated with Mesopotamia, but I might be off on that one).

For example, I know of this Russian Bronze Age/Late Neolithic settlement that has, while not spiral, at least a concentric circle pattern. Would this be too simple-looking for Vinkotling architecture? (I could've used Great 

Or something like this? Is this more Vingkotling, or more Early Theyalan?

- Just to be clear, I am not expecting specifics, necessarily, just sending out feelers to gauge the varying trends of complexity and simplicity as these civilizations rise and fall over the millennia.


Lastly, I have this question - does the new art direction preclude the kind of wattle-and-daub/Iron Age longhouse-style Heortling settlements we see in King of Dragon Pass, for example? I quite like that style personally, and wouldn't mind it being a viable type outside of the walled citadels, but the new artwork of for example Apple Lane seems to indicate that even small settlements will look more "Mediterranean".

The top picture of Arkaim is very Vingkotling - indeed, we have used it as a reference piece for Vingkotling architecture. I imagine that this is the idealised abstract concept of a city for many Orlanthi.

The second picture is something you might see in the First or early Third Ages. I think this is a fortified shrine or temple.