Jeff

50 minutes ago, mfbrandi said:

Now, I may have this wrong — in the long run, you won’t lose money by betting against my opinions — but I thought the switch to ‘iron’ (i.e. steel) in the Mediterranean and thereabouts was due to the difficulty of maintaining supplies of the ingredients for bronze, there being few dead gods to scavenge from. Sure, steel made better — lighter, stronger — weapons, but it took more than that to push everybody over the technological hump: in the end, people shifted to iron because they had to, not because it was better.

This is a long way off talking about Invisible Orlanth. Lets return to the subject of the thread. If you want, you can always start a new thread.

Just now, Jeff said:

A lot in this thread. 

Dwarf Weapons. Most dwarf weapons are modified tools - hammers, clubs, axes, etc. or things constructed for the explicit purpose of killing things - crossbows, pistols, muskets, exploding barrels, etc. Dwarf society is incredibly conservative and once a thing is adopted, they tend to stick with it. Given that the average Iron Dwarf has 9 AP, and has a 70% chance of ignoring any magic cast at it, I'd not swear at them. Since they mainly fight trolls and dwarfs, their weapons are more dangerous than they look. Especially since those repeating crossbows have iron tips. 

When I handle dwarfs, they fight from a distance, using their crossbows. They almost never fight in the open ground and only enter combat once the enemy has been pounded by waves of bolts doing 2d4+2 damage (4-10 points as opposed to 2-9 for a composite bow). In their tunnels, where they sense everything with Earthsense, that's much more frightening than the waves of trollkin slingers. Also remember, they like to use Jolanti to soften foes up.  

Shields. My players all make sure they have shields and generally are reluctant to parry too often with their main striking weapon. A shield can break without dooming the character. It is useful against missile fire, etc. They aren't as indispensable as they were in RQ3, but my old sifu more than showed me why that is the case. In the end, shields are far more useful in group battle than in single combat (but can still be pretty useful in single combat). Most RQ combats are really single combats or light skirmishes.

 

Iron dwarfs have no sense of honour, and have no need to fight single skirmishes. Throw Disorder Kegs and Bowling Balls to your hearts content. If the humans do something crazy enough like threaten Dwarf Mine with their armies, then out comes the Cannon Cult.

A lot in this thread. 

Dwarf Weapons. Most dwarf weapons are modified tools - hammers, clubs, axes, etc. or things constructed for the explicit purpose of killing things - crossbows, pistols, muskets, exploding barrels, etc. Dwarf society is incredibly conservative and once a thing is adopted, they tend to stick with it. Given that the average Iron Dwarf has 9 AP, and has a 70% chance of ignoring any magic cast at it, I'd not swear at them. Since they mainly fight trolls and dwarfs, their weapons are more dangerous than they look. Especially since those repeating crossbows have iron tips. 

When I handle dwarfs, they fight from a distance, using their crossbows. They almost never fight in the open ground and only enter combat once the enemy has been pounded by waves of bolts doing 2d4+2 damage (4-10 points as opposed to 2-9 for a composite bow). In their tunnels, where they sense everything with Earthsense, that's much more frightening than the waves of trollkin slingers. Also remember, they like to use Jolanti to soften foes up.  

Shields. My players all make sure they have shields and generally are reluctant to parry too often with their main striking weapon. A shield can break without dooming the character. It is useful against missile fire, etc. They aren't as indispensable as they were in RQ3, but my old sifu more than showed me why that is the case. In the end, shields are far more useful in group battle than in single combat (but can still be pretty useful in single combat). Most RQ combats are really single combats or light skirmishes.

13 minutes ago, Eff said:

Yelm is the Sun, and of course I benefit from him because I, as a Pelorian peasant, need light to see and the Sun is so much cheaper than firewood and candles. Maybe I don't quite see what the benefit of sacrifices to Buserian is to me personally, but I know that scribes are very important for making sure that my taxes get recorded properly so I don't get my legs broken by a Shargashi again, and for other things too. There's an overall social order, and I can easily see how the tithes fit in, because there's social integration there. 

The Invisible God is now so depersonalized in the de-Christianized Malkioni that there is no remnant of any sense that he's at all relevant to me. He's almost purely an abstract Prime Mover, a purely philosophical entity. And the social order that is relevant to me is detached from the Invisible God and the zzaburi, because it's ancestor worship and agricultural gods and crafts gods. In fact, not only are the saints now Theosophical Ascended Masters, they're also not accepted by the Rokari, so even the ancestor worship is disconnected from the Invisible God except in the most abstract terms. 

And what happens is that people end up either bringing back in a little bit of that Christianity, to make the Invisible God interventionist enough to send his only beloved son Malkion into the world, or they take up the Indian elements and make zzaburi brahmins outright and suggest that anyone who does religious activities as an authority figure is a zzaburi. I think that says something about how unstable the Rokari as described are, that we either back away from them or slide in another direction entirely. Which is most obvious for the Rokari because the various softenings of the new Malkionism are least present there. 

EDIT: What I find most interesting is that not many people are going for the idea that Malkioni are in fact, as a society massively powerful because they have the benefits of large-scale sorcery spread out among the people alongside the benefits of theurgy and spiritism. We can all agree that there's a rough balance of power between the "four ways of doing magic", it seems. 

As you say, the idea of an almost purely abstract Prime Mover is not interesting to you. And yet, such abstract Prime Movers have been quite popular - at least among the intelligentsia - in many societies and many times. And since the zzaburi can wield magic and powerful magic at that, they must have something going for them.

9 minutes ago, Eff said:

Being able to understand the Rokari is not the same thing as finding them palatable or protagonistic. It is fairly easy to understand why some people find fascist ideologies attractive without yourself finding fascism attractive. 

And I mean, I know a lot more Lunars and New Hrestoli, metaphorically, than Rokari. Especially on a social level. 

I don't find the Rokari fascist at all. Nor the Lunars. Not even really the New Hrestoli, although certainly a better argument can be given for them. They are certainly theocratic, but then again so are most Gloranthan societies. Certainly the Lunar Empire is a literal theocracy.

Rokari Malkionism posits a hereditary caste system with a semi-meritocratic, non-hereditary "priestly" caste at the top (who doesn't muddy in their hands in the affairs of the world, but need to work with the nobility to maintain their position). I could imagine a Greek philosopher suggesting something like this to Demetrius of Bactria as a way of better governing his domains.

2 minutes ago, Joerg said:

And even better, Death Eaters are us. It is Voldemort's power fantasy come true.

Which may be why I fail to find this palatable.

Rokari Talar palace life is great - Mhugal empire great, plus licentious as long as you keep your sexual organs reserved for other Talar caste ones. Mel Brooks was right, it is good to be the king, or someone close to him. It probably takes Fonritian non-owned or the Moonson palace to live in similar conditions.

Just like Athenian democracy, participation in sovereignty for everybody (male, Athenian, post-adolescent, free, tax-paying).

 

Yes, the Rokari system is fairly easy to accept on its own, unless offered alternatives (like the previous Hrestoli system, with its hope for re-incarnation, a running chance at man-of-all-dom, etc.).

Castle Coast sorcerer-knight princes are as easy to accept on their own, marred only by the thinness of that veneer of splendour. As perfectly logical, just the losers of two battles against Rindland barbarian upstarts pretending to be Seshnegi because a usually very minor God Learner ancestor married into wealthy Enerali nobility at the end of the Autarchy.

 

Rokari society is pretty bog standard fantasy stuff, with a bleak "you only live once" message that one might call "realist". Yet Rokari dead will go to Hell to face Daka Fal much like any other dead will, and Rokari ancestors receive worship much like Hrestoli ancestors do (and a lot of the Rokari ancestors are Hrestoli ancestors when they aren't barbarians who worshipped the Old Gods). There is no philosophical vision discernible other than "don't repeat the God Learner mistakes" while repeating them.

Selling a clearly stratified caste society outside of supremacist or fascist circles (the latter including most of the marxist/leninist/maoist brands) is a fairly hard sell to our world's modern age players, at best a form of "guilty pleasure" when indulging in power fantasies.

Well, to each their own. I find the Rokari easier to understand than the New Hrestoli myself. After all, the Rokari are closer to us moderns than the Lunars or Hrestoli....

20 minutes ago, Joerg said:

I have a hard time trying to paint Rokari wizards as something palatable. Not so much Marxist, really more "Aryan" in ripping (male only) individuals out of their family environment, robbing them of ancestral benefits, and indoctrinating them very early on, with probably some "waste disposal" as individuals fail to live up to the expectations of their likewise indoctrinated superiors.

I find the Rokari very easy to be painted as something palatable. They are "realists" about the world and human nature, and have as much joy and sadness, love and dislike, as any other human society. Their system is pretty easily to accept - if you are already a ruler, you get acknowledged as a hereditary ruler. If you are already a soldier, you get acknowledged as a hereditary soldier. And if you are everyone else, you get acknowledged as everyone else. 

And if you are a kid who shows magical aptitude, you get to go to Hogwarts and become a wizard. You lose your family (and don't deal with Muggles much any more), but get to become one of the most important people in the world - the people responsible for maintaining magic. Sure there is a Ministry for Magic, which regulates your life, but then again, you don't really have to pay attention to those Muggle Ministries anymore.

4 hours ago, radmonger said:

I think we have been reading the same soources, but it seems reading them differently.

As I see it, malkioni society can be divided into 5 groups. 4 of them are Brithini, Vadeli, Rokari and Hrestoli.  

Brithini society works stably for them, Vadeli are ther own thing. Rokari and Hrestoli both have aspirations to bascially become Brithini. Neither is a stable society, they will either succeed or collapse.

It is all the others who are  'most Malkioni'. Almost all Malkioni accept Rune Lords of approved gods as Horali, and God Talkers as Dronals. Most Malkioni accept Rune Priests of farming gods as (socially, but not magically)  Zzaburi. Fewer accept Heros of ruling gods as Talars. There are enough options to thoroughly paint the map of Western-Central Glorarantha with direrent interpretions of who society can afford to be Right.

A Rune Priest acting socially as a Zzaburi has low Rightness, and so cannot benifit from the magical support of more othodox Zzaburi. But if the local Talar merely turns a blind eye to them, the caste transgression may be recoverable, and not contagious. It may not be perfectly Right, but everyone gets to eat.

Lets look at this differently. The Brithini system is "perfect".  The Brithini enjoy immortality and do not die of old age because of their adherence to perfection. Even the most menial of dronari enjoys immortality. They are by all accounts very well governed and haven't had a civil war (that we know of) since the Dawn. They made great sacrifices during the Gbaji Wars and survived. 

But nobody can become a Brithini from outside. It is a closed system. Their descendants all did things in the God Time and the Dawn that were incompatible with the Brithini Way. No going back to being immortals. We are all stuck with mortality now.

So how should us mortals - the heirs of the Brithini - live. If we approach Rightness enough, we can slow down the wear of mortality and become very long-lived (but not ageless).  However, that's hard work and sometimes makes survival in this flawed and degenerate world difficult. Do we just shrug our shoulders and run around with animals like the Hykimi and give up our cosmic knowledge to howl at the Old Gods? We sometimes see our Brithini ancestors and they look at us like we are short-lived savages, but we were them once. If we can't get back to that state, how should we live?

Most Malkioni sects are trying to answer that question (although some are looking at it from the opposite end of the telescope). 

So what is the Invisible Orlanth? Well the mad preacher I heard in the market at Brinnus (before the market guards chased him off) said that "Orlanth is still here even if we cannot see him. His Breath is everywhere and as Invisible as ours! He turns the world around Idovanus' pillar! Remember, he defended Castle Blue yonder, and refused to submit! Orlanth became Invisible like the Breath of Idovanus, but he is still there, still turning the world. And soon his Breath will become a mighty storm that shall knock down towers of lies and destroy the palace of Ganesatarus! He may be invisible now, but soon everyone shall see ..." At that point the market guards chased him off. 

10 hours ago, Nick Brooke said:

Yeah, that’s how I wrote them. Structurally, I used Persian chrome for Carmanians because it gave us:

1) a very different feel for a monotheistic(ish) chivalrous(ish) society than we saw in the “modern” mediæval Malkioni West (Jeff’s bathwater incident was still decades in the future when I wrote this stuff): I was exploring how far pre-GL Malkionism could deviate from the modern mainstream, playing with Manichaeans and dualism, etc..

2) an initially ancient-world model (“Persians”) that could interact with “Greeks,” “Romans,” “Babylonians,” “Byzantines,” “Ottomans” etc. (that is, the then-common analogies for various Pelorian cultures) in ways that make sense and have some historical and literary depth; again, this is before the Glorious ReAscent inspired the faux-archaic “Babylonian Lunar” mistake that blighted the Hero Wars / HeroQuest era.

3) a neat twist on the Arkat vs. Nysalor, truth in Darkness vs. deceiving Light angle to the Gbaji Wars, which preyed on loose words used by Greg in the Zero Wane History (you’ll find them on a re-read: look for Truth, Light and Darkness, then make them core) to give them more depth and significance.

My scrappy old notes from the Before the Moon era are here; the stuff in ILH-1 and the Guide was derived from them by Greg Stafford and others.

The nice thing about dualism is that it is really easy to go from a One Invisible Prime Move to a One Invisible Prime Mover AND One Bad Maker of Bad Things. Dualism pops up naturally in the Malkioni mindset. 

24 minutes ago, Eff said:

I think the crux of Rokari and New Hrestol Idealist societies is the question "Why are zzaburi necessary for society to function?" That is, if we have a social order which contains within itself an entire "theistic" or "animistic" society in waiting, why would that fail to function if the zzaburi were removed? And if it would continue to function, why do zzaburi continue to exist? It's easy to see ways that New Hrestol Idealism, with its vision of caste mobility, would be able to preserve zzaburi as long as its social order exists, but for Rokarism, where it's explicit that zzaburi focus exclusively on an abstract religious practice that is not just irrelevant to the lives of the majority of the populace but explicitly hostile to them, it raises the question of why this order has been stable for the past few centuries. 

One answer might be that zzaburi are functionally irrelevant- they have no social cost to their existence, and they offer no social benefit. But that's hardly satisfying, of course. So I think the likely answers probably exist in the space between "zzaburi are beneficiently fundamental to the social structure in an inarticulate way" and "zzaburi are malevolently fundamental to the social structure because the Rokari social structure exists to exploit the other castes, so it's stable in the same way that warrior aristocracies are stable." But maybe I'm missing something, of course. 

All Malkioni would agree that ALL human societies are divided into four castes - the leaders, the magicians, the fighters, and the workers. According to Malkion that is how mortal society functions. And specialists are better than non-specialists. So magic should be handled by specialist magicians, leadership should be handled by specialist leaders, etc. The only real question is how does one get slotted to a specific specialisation. The Idealists say that anyone should be capable of doing whatever they are capable of doing. The Realists say that is a tremendously inefficient approach that always results in disaster. The Idealists say that the Realists are unjust and wasteful of talent. And so on.

1 minute ago, scott-martin said:

A. The return of the repressed.
B. IMG yes, what we call aeolianism is a substrate across much of the "malkioni belt," surviving in different forms and transmutations.
C. Largely antagonistic right now (competing revelations) but the future is unwritten, things can change. There may also be an Invisible Moon spreading from the Janube side to complicate things.
D. Lunar Civil War. People seem to like that motif.
E. Not that I can remember. I would, however, plug the story of Damol in the Guide as a folkloric precedent that informs how Invisible Orlanth intellectuals understand their thing.

A few thoughts here.

Orlanth had a significant mythological presence in the old Carmanian Empire, going back at least to the times of Survilstar Dragonslayer and his Orlanthi allies. Orlanth's brothers Humakt and Storm Bull are important War Gods (even if they are rarely called by those names). And Orlanth is the enemy of the Red Goddess.

The West Reaches has been part of the Lunar Empire for  three and half centuries. However, it never became part of the Heartlands and maintained a strong identity. Although New Pelorian is the lingua franca, Carmanian is still spoken and written by the educated. A historical analogy could be Hungary under the Habsburgs. In the Sixth and Seventh Wanes frustration and resentment of the increasingly "Dara Happan" imperial aristocracy grew. 

That frustration and resentment has fuelled the rise of the cult of the Invisible Orlanth. Orlanth the Great Rebel was enlightened by and then submitted to the Invisible God. Although many viziers demand that the Hierophant proclaim the cult a heresy, the Heirophant has refused to do so despite provocation from his half-brother. Who knows how much of this is a devious scheme from the Taloned Countess?

The Lunar Empire itself is in a long-brewing religious and financial crisis that has already erupted with the White Moon Movement and the Voor-Ash invasion, but will explode following the defeat at the Red Emperor, his leading heroes, and the Lunar Army at the Battle of Bagnot.

2 hours ago, metcalph said:

Except the origin of the cult is a "simple local phenomenon" (Guide p324) which kinda rules out the creation by atheistic sorcerers (and its far from clear that the cult even has any).

Stories about how so-and-so supernatural beings are frauds perpetrated by criminals for real estate shenanigans have been used far too often on Scooby-Doo.

It is not a con. 

Here's the current rules:

INITIATE MEMBERSHIP

Initiation into the Invisible God cult is a prerequisite for full membership in Malkioni society. Initiation follows several years of caste education and training. Each caste has their own set of rituals, restrictions, special abilities, and associated cults, all unique to that caste. 

Once a person initiates into a given caste, they cannot join a different caste – except by means of the Hrestol cult. 

CASTE RIGHTNESS

Each caste has duties and restrictions which must be maintained to remain a member of the caste.  This is represented by the RIGHTNESS characteristic for Malkioni initiates. Initiates start with a RIGHTNESS of one. RIGHTNESS may have a score greater than one, representing the initiate’s reserve of righteousness. If a character’s RIGHTNESS is less than zero, that character may no longer use any caste magic or special abilities and risks being thrown out of their caste and exiled from Malkioni society.

RIGHTNESS may be increased by adherence to caste duties and restrictions in adversity in ways that create difficulties for the character and make the game more entertaining. Examples include a talar refusing to perform menial labor even though their survival might depend on it, or a dronar refusing to touch a weapon even in self-defense. The gamemaster should not award RIGHTNESS for good dice rolling, simple puzzle solving, ordinary combat successes or any other of the minor accomplishments that might occur during the course of a session.

RIGHTNESS should be reduced by the gamemaster for transgressions against any caste duties and restrictions. 

For each circumstance, the gamemaster should warn the player that a given action will result in an increase or decrease in RIGHTNESS. If the player insists, then RIGHTNESS should be adjusted accordingly.

Initiation into the cult of Hrestol can mitigate this, as a Hrestoli initiate does not lose RIGHTNESS for any action that upholds the Hrestoli code. However, if they violate their caste restrictions in a way that does not uphold the Hrestoli code, they still lose RIGHTNESS.

EXPULSION FROM CASTE

A character with a zero RIGHTNESS characteristic is no longer in good standing with their caste and cannot use any caste special abilities (such as a talar’s Forced Command ability or a zzaburi’s ability to store magic points in the Spirit World) until their RIGHTNESS is positive.

A character with a negative RIGHTNESS may be expelled from their caste by their elders. If this happens they are no longer accepted as members of Malkioni society. If they can get their RIGHTNESS back to positive, they  can submit themselves to caste elders to be brought back (this is often called “Return to Rightness”). The elders may impose penances, fines, and other punishments as a condition for return. Until then they are viewed as outlaws, barbarians, or even krjalki (monsters) by other Malkioni. 

Some sects do not permit a character to return to their caste once expelled. For the Brithini, expulsion is permanent and always results in death.

CASTE RESTRICTIONS AND SPECIAL ABILITIES

Each caste has restrictions which must be followed to maintain their RIGHTNESS. Some castes have special abilities – magical abilities of the caste members. If they are expelled from the caste for any reason, they lose all special abilities of that caste. 

RUNE SPELLS AND DIVINE INTERVENTION

Unlike other cults, the Invisible God does not provide Rune spells, Divine Intervention, or allied spirits. 

16 hours ago, metcalph said:

 

The myth that the God Learners stole was the Lightbringers Quest which had been identified during the Gbaji Wars by Harmast Barefoot.  People (including the Malkion) have worshipped the Orlanthi Gods long before this without knowing this secret.  The LBQ was uncovered as a result of Orlanthi HeroQuesting by Harmast.   Contrary to what you say, the Orlanthi did have HeroQuesting in that period and were one of the two main practitioners of it, the others being the Arkati.  The God Learners didn't get into HeroQuesting until the destruction of the Autarchy circa 740 ST and subsequent looting of Arkati secrets. 

Yeah let me expand on this. The God Learners started experimenting with the genealogy of the gods around 700 or maybe earlier - Tanian's Victory showed how useful this was. But in order to understand the structure of the cosmos (and thereby have ways to exploit that structure with sorcery), the God Learners needed to learn about the gods and their myths.

10 minutes ago, Godlearner said:

Is there enforcement of this? Do the Rokari seek out those from lower castes and persecute them? 

Depends on the needs of your game and what that lower caste sorcerer has done.  

On 10/22/2022 at 3:04 PM, Godlearner said:

As was stated in the other thread (Worship in Malkioni lands - RuneQuest - BRP Central - The Chaosium forums (basicroleplaying.org)) Zzaburi use sorcery. The other castes suport the worship of the Invisible God, but may worship cult and spirits as well. The question I have here is do any Malkioni, except Zzaburi use sorcery? Is it prohobited? Is it proscribed? Or is it encouraged? How difficult, and how expensive would it be for an Adventurer, or just a tradesman, to purchase a casting of sorcery?

 

Yes. Depending on the local sect. Some sects think that sorcerous techniques ought to be widely taught (such as New Hrestolism). Others think that deep knowledge of sorcerous techniques should be restricted to specialists (such as Rokarism). 

11 minutes ago, Jeff said:

Arkat was considered a traitor because he initiated into the cult of Humakt and then turned over all of his Brithini and Hrestoli secrets to outsiders - despite the shocked outrage of the wizards. He showed people who did not even acknowledge the Invisible God the deepest secrets of the Malkioni religion. He showed secret Brithini paths to Orlanthi, he showed secret Orlanthi paths to trolls. His treason was infinitely worse than merely joining a cult.

Like all of the Stafford Library, Middle Sea Empire is a notebook and was never intended to be a final word on anything.

So from an Orlanthi perspective, Malkionism is pretty radical. First it posits that the cosmos is a rationally created thing - instead of being simply born out of a cosmic egg. It demands that creator is worshiped as the supreme god, despite being abstract, unapproachable, and non-reciprocal. Second, it imposes a radically different form of social organization and says that it is demanded by how the cosmos is structured. But the Malkioni - especially their wizards - know a lot about the cosmos and its overall structure. 

Most Malkioni acknowledge the gods and worship specific gods as ancestors, localized beings, or useful spirits. They worship them and gain powers from them, but deny them the role of supreme - or even most important - being. The gods are often thought of as aspects, constructs, emanations, or devolutions from the supreme Invisible God. 

On 10/21/2022 at 10:40 AM, Darius West said:

No, this makes no sense to me.  If this was true, then Arkat wouldn't be considered a Traitor by the Malkioni for joining Humakt.  In fact Arkay would likely have worshipped Humakt for most of his life since becoming a Hrestoli.  Similarly why would there be Orlanthi resistance to missionizing as it says on The Middle Sea Empire pp34-35.  And why would the Malkioni have needed to infiltrate other societies to "God Learn" their hero quests if they already practiced them?  Then on page 38 of The Middle Sea Empire we see that the Emanationists take a very dim view of the "pagans and their spirits", and are encouraged to completely destroy them and their belief systems.  This is an odd comment, considering that the Malkioni have always worshipped the same gods according to some people.  Then on page 41 we see that the God Learners were apparently quite happy about destroying the Pagan Worldview.  How can this be, if they are partaking of it, and allegedly always have?  There are too many things that don't fit the facts. 

This looks like a great big retrofit to me, and a clumsy one at best.

This is not to say that I dislike the idea of Rightness or Caste Magic, but the notion that Pagan gods are routinely worshipped in Malkioni areas seems extremely far fetched when Pagan is unquestionably a pejorative term and the whole idea flies in the face of the existing literature and established lore.

For a start, why would the Westerners essentially piggyback onto the Orlanth pantheon, and not have their own specific deities that they control the institutional structures of?  It makes no sense, given they could literally have built them during the God Learner period, and yet we know that the Orlanth Pantheon existed before time, and the Malkioni don't control it, despite the God Learner period.  Why didn't they follow the Solar Pantheon and its extremely orderly and hierarchical social system, which already mirrors Malkionism in many ways (certainly a lot more than Orlanth and his pantheon does)?  Why not the Earth Pantheon?  I could understand that, for the Dronar class at least.  Or why not a completely different Pantheon based on the abstract concepts of Sorcery?

Arkat was considered a traitor because he initiated into the cult of Humakt and then turned over all of his Brithini and Hrestoli secrets to outsiders - despite the shocked outrage of the wizards. He showed people who did not even acknowledge the Invisible God the deepest secrets of the Malkioni religion. He showed secret Brithini paths to Orlanthi, he showed secret Orlanthi paths to trolls. His treason was infinitely worse than merely joining a cult.

Like all of the Stafford Library, Middle Sea Empire is a notebook and was never intended to be a final word on anything.

And this is a key to understanding the role of the zzaburi - they perform the worship of the Invisible God itself. The Invisible God is abstract, the ultimate reality in the universe. It is Brahman, the Ein Sof, the Unmoved Mover, the One. The Invisible God does not change, but is the cause of all. The Invisible God is unity, undivided, infinite, and the single binding truth behind diversity in the universe.

Next to the Invisible God, all others are infinitely small, localized, and insignificant. They may be called on or used if necessary, but the Invisible God is the All. 

11 hours ago, SDLeary said:

Do they consider themselves Malkioni, Orlanthi, or something else?

SDLeary

The Aeolians? They consider themselves to have the true secrets of Malkion, so probably identify as "followers of Malkion".  However, their beliefs and practice would be heretical or even blasphemous to the Rokari or Hrestoli of Loskalm. But the God Forgot folk don't care, and there really are no other big Malkioni groups in the Holy Country.

Magasta.

When we think about the Aeolians, we are talking about a small and very heterodox religion that can be described both as a Malkioni sect with syncretic Orlanth elements, or as an Orlanthi group that have adopted Malkioni elements. I view them as being roughly analogous to the Druze or Alawites. Many orthodox Malkioni don't consider the Aeolians to even be Malkioni.

2 hours ago, Godlearner said:

I am taking this from another thread which is moving off the main topic.

So, my question is pretty basic, do these worshipper have priests other than the Malkioni sorcerers, and I do not mean the Aelions with their worship of St Orlanth and etc. Or, are only initiates allowed so aas not to create a separate power structure and the actual ceremonies handled by church sorcerers.

OK so the "priests" of the Invisible God are zzaburi, exclusively. Think of them like brahmins or druids.  They hand the worship that EVERYONE participates in. So everyone is expected to be an initiate of the Invisible God.

But below that is folk religion, caste-specific cults, shamans, etc. They have their own leaders and officiants. The zzaburi-priests' attitude towards these cults range from approval to studied apathy to hostility, depending on the specific cult, traditions, etc.

On 10/13/2022 at 2:29 PM, Nick Brooke said:

OK, you're coming at this from the "If you don't get a specific Rune spell for it, it doesn't really matter much to the cult" perspective. Jeff has explained why that's a mistake, esp. re: Yelmalio, proud provider of exactly zero Phalanx-related Rune magics since the year dot.

It may be the wrong way to approach the question. But YGWV, of course. From a fan perspective, I'd look to Beat-pot Aelwrin as a prominent slave rebel and liberator, much like Spartacus. (Except he's a Mirror Universe take on Spartacus, who joined the Roman Legions and eventually rose to the top)

Beat-pot was recorded for having a great deal of bitterness towards how he was treated as a kitchen slave, and although he was completely devoted to the Red Goddess (through Jar-eel), he had notable contempt and righteous disdain for much of the Lunar elite and nobility. As the right-hand of Jar-eel the Razoress, much of that Lunar elite and nobility tried to curry favor with Beat-Pot, which just reinforced his contempt and disdain for them.