Worship in Malkioni lands

[Godlearner]

I am taking this from another thread which is moving off the main topic.

Quote

According to what Jeff has been posting on Facebook, that is not the case. Lower castes follow spirits and worship Gods. If they are initiated, then they will get divine intervention.

So, my question is pretty basic, do these worshipper have priests other than the Malkioni sorcerers, and I do not mean the Aelions with their worship of St Orlanth and etc. Or, are only initiates allowed so aas not to create a separate power structure and the actual ceremonies handled by church sorcerers.

[Richard S.]

The Zzaburi have little to no involvement with the cults followed by the lower castes, unless they become a problem and need to be dealt with. Worshippers and priests both will be from the same caste.

[radmonger]

14 minutes ago, Richard S. said:

The Zzaburi have little to no involvement with the cults followed by the lower castes, unless they become a problem and need to be dealt with. Worshippers and priests both will be from the same caste.

But surely anyone with the actual occupation _priest_, in charge of an officially-existing temple, would be following a wizard-only profession?

Which, in areas with fully Malkioni political structure, leaves the lower castes stuck with god talkers, spirit cults and the like.

Except, perhaps, in Brithini lands, where the wizard-priests know the sorcerous techniques required to extract and process Runic cosmic energy into caste-appropriate magic. In Rokari lands they claim to do the same. However, many outsiders suspect they commonly skip some of the more complex processing steps. The result is directly channeling unfiltered runic energy into the congregation. This can means the congregation develops behavioral traits and mythic potentialities entirely unsuited to their caste role. Farmers defend themselves with weapons, traders adopt new foreign ideas, and so on. 

The Hrestoli naturally consider all that to be proto-God Learnerism. Instead, they profess a fair, flexible and meritocratic caste system. If a peasant has the desire and capability to become a warrior, they become one. There is no need to for the complex magical filtering of worship and cosmic energy when the two inputs are correctly balanced in advance.

 

[jajagappa]

1 hour ago, Godlearner said:

So, my question is pretty basic, do these worshipper have priests other than the Malkioni sorcerers, and I do not mean the Aelions with their worship of St Orlanth and etc. Or, are only initiates allowed so aas not to create a separate power structure and the actual ceremonies handled by church sorcerers.

(There is no "Saint" Orlanth among the Aeolians, just Orlanth, the primary emanation of the Invisible God.  Talars there worship Orlanth as an ancestor.)

I think casting western Malkioni worship as a "church" naturally pulls us towards a medieval European mindset which is likely not the best viewpoint.

I'd look at it this way:

• wizards lead services and ceremonies at the Temple to the Invisible God.  The worshippers join there to offer prayers and magical sacrifices.  The wizards gather that energy and use it to provide blessings upon the other castes (i.e. sorcery spells) and keep some of that energy for their own use.
• the talars have personal connections to their families and ancestors - likely little shrines in their homes/palaces.  Someone in the family is responsible for leading these familial services.  The ancestors were Talar, too, and may act like wyters, guardian spirits, etc.
• the horali are part of distinct societies (or regiments).  Those societies have patron spirits (likely a specific deity like Humakt/Humct) led by Rune Lords/captains, but given additional blessings by the wizards/Invisible God.
• the dronar receive blessings from the wizards/Invisible God and offer their prayers for those.  They also continue on with their basic folk worship of various spirits (i.e. gods) who help with day-to-day life.  These would be the grain goddesses, hearth goddess, and the like.  Figure that they are led by god-talkers who intercede to gain the blessings of the spirits.  The wizards will ensure that the dronars do not go worshipping demons (i.e. inappropriate gods/spirits for their caste).  If needed, the wizards can cast powerful spells to prove to the dronars that they are the masters of these minor spirits and not slaves to the "gods".

[Richard S.]

27 minutes ago, radmonger said:

 

Wizards have sorcery, and so both have no need for and no desire to kneel to any gods or spirits for magic, but there's no restrictions on the lower castes having rune lords or priests. They can freely join rune and spirit cults while still being a righteous Malkioni as long as it doesn't require them to go against their caste strictures.

From what Jeff has said, caste magic just requires you to be initiated into Malkioni society (the "cult" of the Invisible God) and maintain "Rightness". It's independent of the wizards, though I think they can excommunicate people. https://wellofdaliath.chaosium.com/home/catalogue/websites/facebook/2021-02-runequest-on-facebook-march-2021-highlights/#ib-toc-anchor-9

[Jeff]

2 hours ago, Godlearner said:

I am taking this from another thread which is moving off the main topic.

So, my question is pretty basic, do these worshipper have priests other than the Malkioni sorcerers, and I do not mean the Aelions with their worship of St Orlanth and etc. Or, are only initiates allowed so aas not to create a separate power structure and the actual ceremonies handled by church sorcerers.

OK so the "priests" of the Invisible God are zzaburi, exclusively. Think of them like brahmins or druids.  They hand the worship that EVERYONE participates in. So everyone is expected to be an initiate of the Invisible God.

But below that is folk religion, caste-specific cults, shamans, etc. They have their own leaders and officiants. The zzaburi-priests' attitude towards these cults range from approval to studied apathy to hostility, depending on the specific cult, traditions, etc.

[Jeff]

When we think about the Aeolians, we are talking about a small and very heterodox religion that can be described both as a Malkioni sect with syncretic Orlanth elements, or as an Orlanthi group that have adopted Malkioni elements. I view them as being roughly analogous to the Druze or Alawites. Many orthodox Malkioni don't consider the Aeolians to even be Malkioni.

[Godlearner]

25 minutes ago, Jeff said:

But below that is folk religion, caste-specific cults, shamans, etc. They have their own leaders and officiants. The zzaburi-priests' attitude towards these cults range from approval to studied apathy to hostility, depending on the specific cult, traditions, etc.

This is what I was looking for. So, basically for each particular area we would need to determine which are approved, ignored or hunted down.

[SDLeary]

12 hours ago, Jeff said:

Many orthodox Malkioni don't consider the Aeolians to even be Malkioni.

Do they consider themselves Malkioni, Orlanthi, or something else?

SDLeary

[Darius West]

13 hours ago, Jeff said:

OK so the "priests" of the Invisible God are zzaburi, exclusively. Think of them like brahmins or druids.  They hand the worship that EVERYONE participates in. So everyone is expected to be an initiate of the Invisible God.

But below that is folk religion, caste-specific cults, shamans, etc. They have their own leaders and officiants. The zzaburi-priests' attitude towards these cults range from approval to studied apathy to hostility, depending on the specific cult, traditions, etc.

But doesn't this make the Malkioni a minority religion in their own heartlands?  I mean, this portrays a society with a thin upper crust of genuine Malkioni sitting above the 'roiling mass' of a pagan underclass that could overthrow them at a moment's notice.  I mean, I'm not suggesting this is wrong in any way, and it certainly goes a long way towards explaining how the God Learners were so effective at infiltrating cults, but how on the Lozenge is social order maintained when people have these varied allegiances?  It sounds like a disaster waiting to happen, sorcery or no sorcery.   I mean, it is a lot easier to get quite a lot of power from a group of initiates in a god that it is from zzaburi who have to train for decades.  Consider, if you have 10 initiates, you will statistically have 1 successful Divine Intervention that can potentially dispel any sorcery.  At some point the ruling class seem very much like hostages.

[metcalph]

42 minutes ago, Darius West said:

But doesn't this make the Malkioni a minority religion in their own heartlands? 

No it does not.  A Malkioni has a wider definition than a sorcery user.

42 minutes ago, Darius West said:

I mean, this portrays a society with a thin upper crust of genuine Malkioni sitting above the 'roiling mass' of a pagan underclass that could overthrow them at a moment's notice. 

Except the underclass is not pagan.  They support the wizards and receive guidance and magical support.  They acquire Rightness in their actions which allows them to use Caste Magic, a significaqnt distinction between themselves and people who are not Malkioni.  

 

42 minutes ago, Darius West said:

I mean, I'm not suggesting this is wrong in any way, and it certainly goes a long way towards explaining how the God Learners were so effective at infiltrating cults, but how on the Lozenge is social order maintained when people have these varied allegiances? 

The possession of Rightness and the consequent use of caste magic provides strong evidence to the Malkioni that the social order they follow is worthy of their support.  

42 minutes ago, Darius West said:

It sounds like a disaster waiting to happen, sorcery or no sorcery.   I mean, it is a lot easier to get quite a lot of power from a group of initiates in a god that it is from zzaburi who have to train for decades.  Consider, if you have 10 initiates, you will statistically have 1 successful Divine Intervention that can potentially dispel any sorcery.  

But most Malkioni can happily use both caste magic *and* rune magic.  It's not an either/or situation (unless they are sorcerers).  They could follow the example of the Brithini and use only Caste Magic and Sorcery but the latter are practically extinct because they can't adapt to the World of Time.  The wizards sigh and roll their eyes, muttering darkly about "misapplied worship" and how "the world is made of everything" but even they recognize their dream of a world of pure reason is unattainable.  The Malkioni could overthrow the wizards but that's like cutting off their arms - the wizards provide the philosophy and magics that keeps the Malkioni strong against their neighbours.

[Darius West]

19 minutes ago, metcalph said:

They acquire Rightness in their actions which allows them to use Caste Magic, a significaqnt distinction between themselves and people who are not Malkioni.  

Hang on, what is Caste Magic?  Where would I find a reference to it?  This is the first time I've heard anyone mention it.

[JRE]

The real problem with the West is that actually they are as varied as Central Genertela, from Praxians to Sartarite to Lunars, so there is no single right answer.

From what has been discussed in FB and echoed here, only the wizard caste is forbidden the use of "other" magics, and that seems right as they are the keepers of sorcery and the ones that use it for the benefice of society.

All right Malkioni participate in weekly ceremonies of Worship of the Invisible God or of some of its masks, depending on the tradition. That is one of the unifying parts of the cultures. You worship, you give magic, the wizards do great spells with that magic for the benefit of all. In normal peaceful times, most of that magic goes back for the benefit of the Dronali, but that is as it should be, even if in proportion Talari and Horali get more magic benefits that they put in, as the Dronaly support the other castes also magically. That may be game mechanics spells such as blessing all the sickles and scythes before the harvest, or less defined magic such as blessing the land or keeping harmful spirits out. 

In addition, each land / culture will have additional contact with magic. In Seshnela we have been told the Horali arrange themselves in societies that worship powerful spirits, usually as ancestors, and get special magics from them, We also know the land goddesses are still powerful and influential among the Dronali, so I suppose any Goddess speaker will be Dronali, though considering the unclear status of women in that society and how rokari practising wizards seem to be all male, that could be one of women's roles in that kingdom, accessing the other magics that wizards do not handle.

Meanwhile in Safelster we have a coexistence of cults, secret religious societies (only a few of them openly arkati, though most will have also some divine patron) and official wizard caste mages making sure the right magics are applied. Rather than parish priests, inquisitors and agents of the crown as they are in Seshnela, they are more functionaries, a specialized guild that makes sure the people worship right and their magic is used in the benefit of the state, but that does not exert any special control on the people's beliefs or practices. Yet totally necessary for the state, and that is why ceremonies are still widely attended, and most Safelstran, even the Black Arkati in his skull helmet and leaden mace, call themselves Malkioni, followers of the Invisible God as revealed by Malkion.

Moving North we have a clear mix in Loskalm, as those with little ambition still follow the old traditions, while those that embrace New Hrestolic ideals start to learn and practice sorcery from a young age, as it will be a cornerstone in the Men-of-All progression, as the only common magic among the Castes and the hardest to master, though most will also learn and often use the specific magics of each caste as they move through them, although never as well as those that are content in their place and do not aspire to be anything else, and who can then afford to really master their caste's skills, including magic. 

[Godlearner]

5 hours ago, JRE said:

From what has been discussed in FB and echoed here, only the wizard caste is forbidden the use of "other" magics, and that seems right as they are the keepers of sorcery and the ones that use it for the benefice of society.

I would argue about "forbidden". I do not think they are forbidden, but rather it is a distraction and they do not want to limit themselves with the study of inferior forms.

If you think in terms of other RPG games, this is similar to multiclassing. Yes, you will get access to more abilities and more spells, but in the longer run the strength of those abilities and the power of those spells will be much less.

Edited October 17, 2022 by Godlearner
additional thoughts

[Jeff]

11 hours ago, SDLeary said:

Do they consider themselves Malkioni, Orlanthi, or something else?

SDLeary

The Aeolians? They consider themselves to have the true secrets of Malkion, so probably identify as "followers of Malkion".  However, their beliefs and practice would be heretical or even blasphemous to the Rokari or Hrestoli of Loskalm. But the God Forgot folk don't care, and there really are no other big Malkioni groups in the Holy Country.

[Godlearner]

3 minutes ago, Jeff said:

The Aeolians

From my understanding, what among the Aeolians sorcerers would rarely advance beyond an initiate status and most of their priesthood would not have more than a basic knowledge of sorcery. Is that the case?

[jajagappa]

34 minutes ago, Godlearner said:

what among the Aeolians sorcerers would rarely advance beyond an initiate status and most of their priesthood would not have more than a basic knowledge of sorcery. Is that the case?

The Aeolian sorcerers (i.e. wizard-priests, zzaburi) are the intercessors between the Malkioni they support and the Invisible God.  No different than other Malkioni.  What's different is that view that Orlanth (and other Lightbringers) are emanations of the Invisible God, and therefore also receive a level of active worship (not explicitly directed by the zzaburi, but they help identify the Right Actions of the talars and commoners).

[jajagappa]

10 hours ago, Darius West said:

Hang on, what is Caste Magic?  Where would I find a reference to it?  This is the first time I've heard anyone mention it.

Jeff posted originally in FB in March 2021.  Summary of his post here: 

 

[Godlearner]

8 minutes ago, jajagappa said:

No different than other Malkioni.  What's different is that view that Orlanth (and other Lightbringers) are emanations of the Invisible God, and therefore also receive a level of active worship (not explicitly directed by the zzaburi, but they help identify the Right Actions of the talars and commoners).

Got that, but I am looking for the how this reflected in practice. Aeolian zzaburi can and are initiated (followers of) particular saints. How far do they advance into the deeper mysteries of these entities? Do they become Saint Talkers (God Talkers) and Leader of Saint (Priest) or just nod to the basic function of the saint in its relationship to the Invisible God? 

Edited October 17, 2022 by Godlearner

[metcalph]

46 minutes ago, Godlearner said:

Got that, but I am looking for the how this reflected in practice. Aeolian zzaburi can and are initiated (followers of) particular saints. How far do they advance into the deeper mysteries of these entities? Do they become Saint Talkers (God Talkers) and Leader of Saint (Priest) or just nod to the basic function of the saint in its relationship to the Invisible God? 

Saints is obsolete terminology as the Aeolians worship Gods.  I think their Zzaburi worship Lhankor Mhy among other deities but Orlanth and many other gods have their worshippers in other castes..

[Jeff]

And this is a key to understanding the role of the zzaburi - they perform the worship of the Invisible God itself. The Invisible God is abstract, the ultimate reality in the universe. It is Brahman, the Ein Sof, the Unmoved Mover, the One. The Invisible God does not change, but is the cause of all. The Invisible God is unity, undivided, infinite, and the single binding truth behind diversity in the universe.

Next to the Invisible God, all others are infinitely small, localized, and insignificant. They may be called on or used if necessary, but the Invisible God is the All. 

[Godlearner]

Great, but do Aeolian Zzaburi reach the status of a Priest in terms of RQG and gain the benefits of this status?

[jajagappa]

1 hour ago, Godlearner said:

Aeolian zzaburi can and are initiated (followers of) particular saints. How far do they advance into the deeper mysteries of these entities? Do they become Saint Talkers (God Talkers) and Leader of Saint (Priest) or just noAsd to the basic function of the saint in its relationship to the Invisible God? 

As Peter noted, "saints" is obsolete terminology.  

The zzaburi do not "initiate" into these entities - they are initiated into the ways of the Invisible God.  It is better, I think, to picture these emanations as practitioners of a Rune, or combination of Runes.  These beings taught ways to understand and master a Rune, such as Air or Earth or Harmony.  The zzaburi have followed the teachings of these beings so that a given sorcerer can master the Rune of Air or the Technique to Combine Harmony and Earth, etc.  Lhankor Mhy, in this context, is the emanation or being who taught the ways to master Truth.  The Aeolian zzaburi do not initiate into LM, they draw upon texts and practices which he revealed.  

[Joerg]

1 minute ago, Godlearner said:

Great, but do Aeolian Zzaburi reach the status of a Priest in terms of RQG and gain the benefits of this status?

Those who cannot master sorcery might.

[Godlearner]

10 minutes ago, Joerg said:

Those who cannot master sorcery might

We are beating around the bush here guys. Do full Aeolian sorcerers also achive the status of a Priest?