Jeff

15 hours ago, radmonger said:

Game balance is a little different from Pathfinder-style systems, in that there isn't really a 'default' winner, one who is statistically 99% likely to come up on top if no tactics are used and everyone just slugs things out. instead it more smoothly varies from 'very probably will win' to 'very likely will lose'. Without large hp pools, there isn't a 'rule of large numbers' effect to reduce the effect of random chance.

A related point is that, while combat rounds themselves take longer in RQ, fights are usually settled by the end of the second round. Once one side gains a decisive numeric advantage, there isn't much coming back from that. The survivors from the smaller side are both having making more parries, and at a penalty, and also getting fewer attack rolls. Unless you completely outclass your opposition, time to surrender or run away.

The starter adventure is unusual in that, for obvious reasons, it doesn't actually require using any clever tactics or roleplay to start the fight with that decisive advantage. For most scenarios, the actual gameplay is largely in getting to that point. Perhaps using stealth or tactics to reduce their numbers, perhaps using politics to increase your own.

Character progression in RQ is also very different, in that a starting PC who is an initiate of a dedicated combat cult, and allocates everything to weapon skills, is within a shade of being as good at doing what they do as any mortal human is. Think of such PCs as 21 year old professional football players; they may have a small amount to still learn about football, but they have a massive amount to learn about life.

Some GMs don't like that, and prefer to take the RQ2 approach of starting the players at 16, where they are clearly not yet old enough to play for the first team. This give the campaign a simple central focus of a coming-of-age story; how and whether they prove themselves. Others want to tell different stories.

Anyway, they key takeaway is that for a pathfinder-style system the easy mistake for a gm to make is to set up an unbalanced fight where the players are unexpectedly mechanically doomed to defeat. The equivalent mistake that a RQ GM can make is to set up a balanced fight where the player's story cannot continue following defeat.

This is all spot on, although I find that in RQ, fights are usually settled once one side or another loses a "critical mass". That might be when the leader of one side is defeated, or when there is a clear numerical/usefulness superiority on one side or another. Combats tend to last 2 to 4 rounds in my experience.

17 hours ago, Squaredeal Sten said:

In another thread which drifted considerably, i recently wrote: 

"As several more distinguished people have written,

That [advice to the GM on how to balance and organize battles] is a separate subject from monster count and deserves its own thread,  which I will start shortly.

I note that you seem to be asking for advice to the GM about how to balance battles and also how to  efficiently organize battles.

It is very possible that the forthcoming GM book will do that, since the old RQ2 book has "treasure factors" for balance and in the back is a "squad sheet" among several worksheets.

I have little advice on balance.  Maybe I don't even believe in balance. I do recommend mercy:  try not to doom the Adventurers and especially don't intentionally do Total Party Kills, which are not MGF.  Not very profound.

For efficient GMing, I value Andrew L. Montgomery's and Nick Brooke's advice, which I interpret as saying that each of a platoon of mooks does not need his own page in the GM's notes, while major NPCs should get more extensive detail.  It seems to work for me.  Some specifics in a while."

I would like to exchange notes here about GM prep for violent encounters with multiple throw-away NPCs.

I have found it useful and efficient to put a simple matrix in my notes with columns for each "mook" and space for notes on which adventurer each is fighting, wounds taken, magic points expended. Which in a selection of magic each may use.  They don't each need their own hit location table etc, and I can keep group notes nearby, like what superior equipment & magic the officer below may have.

For example, 

Rank	soldier	Soldier	Officer	Soldier	Soldier
Vs  PC
Hits taken
MPs used
Magic up

 

 

I suspect that other people have superior techniques and I'd like to hear about them.

 

 

First off, thank you for creating a new thread.

Second, let's play around with terminology and definitions a little. I tend to approach RuneQuest combats as falling into one of four categories:
 

1. Duel. This is a one on one combat. Simplest to run, requires no special prep.

2. Loose skirmish. This is probably the most common - when the player characters fight a roughly equivalent group of opponents. Effectively it is a group of one on one combats, but some players might be casting spells or using missile weapons, others might be trying to double-team an enemy while defending against another. I tend to just print out a bunch of NPC stats if this is prepared, and if not I just do a table like:

Tusk Rider 1 ("Dave") 
Total Hit points
Injuries
Spells cast
Any other notes:

Tusker 1 ("Dave's Big Pig") 
Total Hit points
Injuries
Any notes:

And then reference the Bestiary or other source for stuff like attack %, etc. 

3. Large skirmish. This is where the players are assisted by other NPCs against a large number of foes. There might be several waves of combat, like for the defenders of the Cradle. Here's the point I start hand-waving - this is a TTRPG and not a war game! I am only interested in rolling stuff where the players are directly involved. The rest we handwave and describe narratively.

In a large skirmish, the GM really needs to keep track of how the player characters are doing. If they are kicking butt, let there be a short pause (which expires their spirit magic) and then have another wave. Maybe a few Rune levels engage with them. Or have them targeted by missile weapons or spells. If they are on the ropes, let them be rescued by allies. Move away from the idea that this is a clockwork mechanism, and really think about pacing.

4. Battle. This is where the hand-waving really needs to take over. Focus on what the players are doing. Give them opportunities to play an important role in the battle - maybe they are able to attack the enemy banner man or even a commander. Let there be plenty of pauses where spirit magic, and in larger battles Rune magic, is going to expire. Battles are confusing places where the combatants rarely know what is going on overall - that's what their Battle Skill is for!

But even in a skirmish or a battle, I handle the NPCs like I do in a loose skirmish. Stat up a few that you think are going to matter and track them. A battle is usually a session by itself - it should be a major event in a campaign, so if a game session looks like it is going to come to a battle, and you aren't ready as the GM, that's a good point to call it a night and you can prepare for the battle before the next game.

Maybe start here:

This has already had over 2000 views, and I am always happy to record more material giving out specific advice or answering questions. 

14 minutes ago, EpicureanDM said:

We got here because the OP asked why there weren't more monsters available. The tenor of some replies was that RuneQuest doesn't necessarily need more monsters, since RQ GMs can create interesting battles using complex combinations of the published monsters. My point is that if no one can practically demonstrate how to create these battles using the game's rules, then maybe some more monsters are needed to create the variety and interest sought by the OP.

So although there is a GM book in the works to cover this (or the many posts on this on other social media, examples of play on YouTube, etc), you'd rather wait to have a second and larger Bestiary made? 

I for one don't think more species would help with that. A big book of encounters might be far more helpful, with a range of different types of encounters, from Rubble Runners to Rune Lord and Entourage.

48 minutes ago, EpicureanDM said:

Why wasn't this part of your response to @General Ork, @Nick Brooke? This is right out of your Manifesto.

 

I’m not sure how we got from asking why there aren’t more monsters in the Bestiary to here, but let’s go back to the original point of the thread. From my perspective there aren’t too few or too many critters in the bestiary. I am curious what value is gained by having more?

18 minutes ago, General Ork said:

But Runequest is more than just Glorantha. While it is great that Runequest is based strongly on Glorantha it is more.

A lot of people responding here are stating that in Glorantha we just do not need more monsters than X.

Should the 7th edition come with a label: "Warning game only applicable to Glorantha."

I know it says role playing in Glorantha. But yet it also advertises itself as a general role playing game system and that you can create you own worlds.

What if someone wants to use Runequest, but run a campaign in say their own world, or even adapt a book. Whatever, its RPG so no limits.

Or is Runequest ment to be deliberately limiting and anyone using it outside of a strict cannon version of Glorantha is wandering in the wilderness with no support.

So the original 1E of Runequest was published as a game one could use for Glorantha or ones own world.

3E was not Glorantha.

Does 7E need be constrained by Glorantha cannon.

Should one's Glorantha game be constrained?

Now you can just say, Runequest == Glorantha and if you want your own stuff write it up, don't bother us, or go play DnD.

That is fine, but how can the game appeal to a wider audience (who may in turn become keen supporters of Glorantha) in such a case, and why should it.

As I have said, the rules of Runequest are very good, and could be made to support so many game worlds, even generic ones.

So is the "Its not in Glorantha." answer justify no further monster books????

Sounds honestly like a great resource to
1) Develop as a significant product on Jonstown Compendium with several collaborating authors with high quality art and production. If you want a monster book to compete with other RPG books it absolutely requires very good colour art and good descriptions for every monster in 2023.
2) Kickstarter it.
3) Ideally this could be done working with Chaosium with them editing and setting art standards to meet consistency with official Runequest 7E existing monster compendium.
4) Include "generic" creatures to allow the game to be used in other non Glorantha campaigns. And add to such creatures how they could fit into Glorantha or if not why in cannon Glorantha this creature is not reccomended.
5) Add more bronze age, Indo European, Sumerian, Indian, creatures that can be used for monster hunts.
6) Expand on spirits and demons, the Sumerians had over 3000 distinct demons listed, same for Egypt, bronze age Greece had many spirits and Demons (the kind that could be good or evil, not teh Demons of evil in modern times), then there were extensive lists of Genie that existed long before Islam, good and evil Genie, the hordes of Undead from ancient Bronze age Hells that became the many Buddhist hells. Then spirit animal and animist animals, such as teh dozens of snake types, and Naga. Sea creatures, mythical underground creatures.


Point is there is in a bronze age world justification for hundreds of creatures more, and mythology behind each and every one, complex histories and heor quests in myth involving them.

Unless we are 100.00 % bound to present cannon of Glorantha.

I am not a game designer, so not something i could do as I have a full time very busy job.

RuneQuest is not marketed as a generic fantasy roleplaying game system by us - RuneQuest is our game set in Glorantha. Basic Roleplaying, on the other hand, is precisely that. It is the engine that underlies RuneQuest, Call of Cthulhu, and Pendragon. And we are doing quite a bit more with Basic Roleplaying.

5 hours ago, General Ork said:

Runequest has extensive rules, a very extensive world, and magic. But only one 128 page monster book.

Is there a reason the game has so few officially published monsters?

Is there any plans to release more extensive monster compilations?

 

So far the Bestiary covers most of the non-human entities player characters are likely going to have meaningful interactions with if they are adventuring in Genertela (where probably 99% of all RQ campaigns take place). From my point of view, the main thing that it is missing are sea creatures (the only triolini presented are the ludoch) and creatures from beyond Genertela. Those will have to wait.

Now there are few new monsters that appear in new books - Duckbears, various Beast Peoples, and so on. Maybe eventually they will get collected into a new edition of the Bestiary. 

Monastery

This complex of artificial caves dates to the Empire of the Wyrms Friends. It is believed that draconic mystics resided here. It is considered the “male” counterpart to the Nunnery because of the prominent male figures depicted in the stonework. In the Third Age, these caves often serve as shelters for herders or bandits. 

Nunnery

This complex of artificial caves dates to the Empire of the Wyrms Friends. It is believed that draconic mystics resided here. It is considered the “female” counterpart to the Monastery because of the prominent female figures depicted in the stonework. It has been home to the Sisters of Mercy since the Second Age. It also serves as a minor temple to Chalana Arroy.

Old Saint’s Road

This route starts at the Monastery, winds through the hills to the Nunnery, and then through Battle Valley and on to Jarolar Keep. The remnants of this First or Second Age road can be seen in the hills, but little more than stones remain in Battle Valley. It gets its names from the broken statues of long-forgotten holy people that litter the route between the Nunnery and the Monastery. The Red Vireo Clan of the Culbrea Tribe herds their cattle and sheep in the hills east of the road.

31 minutes ago, scott-martin said:

I think you've revealed big jade hidden in the rock. The living experience Glorantha as a collective projection that might be noble in some lights and savage in others but is almost always considered in opposition to life here on earth, whatever trajectory that might take. The fantasy bronze age gives us something we aren't getting at home. From that perspective, everybody's Glorantha will be different because we're all here chasing something different.

If one "Glorantha" stops being fun there's always another. Seriously. For some people, the real MGF comes from adjudicating the various interpretations like they're divergent stagings of the same script. The game (ludus) as it tends to be played is not that kind of ludibrium but there's nothing stopping it from going that way except all the other fans.

This seems central to the Arkat story, which is really only marginally interesting IMG but matters a whole lot to other people. That's okay. But I can read the story well enough to know that the central tension is about where we draw the final line around the self and say "thou art not that." For Greg, one of the central disappointments of conventional life here on earth was that "religion" meant not just compulsory chapel service but full-fledged mid-century sickness unto death. Glorantha art not that. Glorantha exists in opposition to that. 

We can build on that birthright or not. Even in the official hagiography (let alone Sandy's spooky acid cowboys of the astral realm) Arkat spends his life and wrecks the world pursuing a primal sin against being itself by going to war against an aspect of being that could have just as easily been himself. There's a death drive. The gnosis gets busted, the dawn age always breaks down. I just find it sad, but it happens. Is that "chaotic" at any point? I find all that sad too, but the sea and the rain are full of tears. And what does it say about Nysalor who may or may not be a "gbaji" at any given moment. That part can be fun to think about from a distance. When we're done thinking of it, maybe we're home after all.

Love it! For me the Arkat story winds through Glorantha. It is a funhouse mirror show where certainties fail once you move further, and truth requires great sacrifices to find. It is a cautionary tale about the dangers inherent in spiritual exploration, and the abuses that so-often accompany the "enlightened". And we should not forget that in the end, Arkat finds peace and balance - but we need to remain with him for the entirety of the ride.

20 minutes ago, scott-martin said:

There is a strong post-kierkegaardian strain here + a few other places that I find personally wicked delightful but tends to run aground on the game as it tends to be played. Drop most of us in a 14th century protosartarite stead Outlander style (apologies to the sassenachs) and they'll classify us all as "arkat" individualists, somewhere between devious, evil and insane. They, on the other hand, have their organic connection to their perennial wisdom and so on. That's how we know they're "Gloranthans." 

We might take refuge in their trickster complex if we get any time to prepare, speaking of sophisticated lightbringer contexts. I think any Orlanth community sophisticated enough to develop a strong sense of CA and the other professional lightbringers will really only interact with the Bull through CA intercession . . . she houses the berserks safely away from the china shop and lets them out in times of trouble, only to welcome them back when the trouble has been stepped on. Bad bulls get tricked into leaving town altogether, going out to make trouble for the real hillbillies.

Of course this is MGF for the CA player who wants to keep her hands clean and still maintain a big stick to threaten people with.

Yeah, Storm Bull, Babeester Gor, Trickster, and Humakt are all roles where the otherwise socially unacceptable can find a useful and accepted place in Orlanthi society. CA and Uleria are roles where those who might otherwise not be able to survive in Orlanthi society can find a place where they are revered and supported.

6 minutes ago, mfbrandi said:

But some Gloranthans think he might be, right?

So a little confusion is forgivable, no?

Every hero at a certain point likely gets tied into the Arkat story. Everyone has stories of him. He's acknowledged, feared, and admired - even by those he betrayed. But few devote themselves to him outside of Ralios and the trolls of Guhan. 

5 minutes ago, Rodney Dangerduck said:

I agree that this is reasonable and probably how it should be.  This is definitely not the impression I get from the scenarios: e.g. Duel at Dangerford features an Arkati being, and all the "woo-woo" weird stuff that Argrath is doing.  Argrath uses "Arkati insights", and his magic "uses an eldritch blend of Arkati secrets..."  It's obvious to the Earthly players (maybe not their Gloranthan PCs) that Argrath and many of his magical teams are highly Illuminated.

Argrath's companion Mularik is "deeply initiated into the mysteries of Arkat".  Sir Ethilrist isn't exactly hiding.

Argrath is Arkat. I mean that literally. Greg had a character named Argrat in his old stories, who fought a great war against Gbaji that shook Glorantha to its foundations and changed the world. That character became Argrath in White Bear and Red Moon. A few years later, he recycled an edited version of the Argrat stories for Cults of Terror, where he became Arkat. Argrath is not a member of the Arkat cult - he is the same hero.

Mularik is not an Orlanthi. He's a Stygian heretic from a long line of Arkat cultists and a Wolf Pirate. He becomes Argrath's teacher on the three-year circumnavigation of the Homeward Ocean and one of his early boon companions. He knows his stuff. 

Ethilrist is not Arkati.

2 minutes ago, mfbrandi said:

Sure, that is why I phrased my original comment the way I did: my death squad killed w, x, and y — they were all terrible people, and you were all glad to see the last of them — but now they have killed z, and none of you can see what was wrong with z; everybody loved z and their turnips. So either you are all too trusting and my death squad can get away with unjustified killings so long as we bring in enough broo scalps, or we are going to have to come up with something a bit better than “z just smelled wrong”, no?

And now give those "death squads" over a dozen centuries of having a socio-religious role where they have repeatedly proven their value over and over again. The Storm Bull cultists are mad and dangerous, but they are holy when it comes to fighting Chaos. As Scott points out they are basically a mirror-image of Chalana Arroy in Orlanthi society. Besides, the Storm Bull cultists are murderous without needing the justification of fighting Chaos - if they want to do an unjustified killing, they are known to just do it. Everyone knows the Storm Bull cultists are dangerous, mad, and violent - they are tolerated because they fight Chaos without compromise.

Also remember that after the Gbaji Wars, Arkat gave rule of Dragon Pass and Peloria to his friends - the trolls. He then settled in Fornoar, at the time part of Ralios. There he remained, surrounded by his companions, his wives, and his beloved children - the trolls. He gave nearby Guhan to his First Hundred as a stronghold. Arkat was no longer trollish, but he was feared and his shadow darkened the lands. For seventy-five years he remained in Ralios, and a curious empire formed around him. He taught those that came to sit around him, and enforced a strict moral code for his followers. As the trolls say, once Arkat became a troll there was no perfidy or betrayal in him. His true self brought the balance of living peace.

2 minutes ago, mfbrandi said:

And presumably even if they weren’t persecuted, the Arkati would be temperamentally unsuited to operating in the open, anyway.

And, yes, I was running together the two cases of brazen Storm Bulls (still standing over granny at the allotment when the rest of the community turns up) and furtive Arkati (long gone). What they have in common is a claim to special knowledge about bad stuff the rest of us cannot see.

Should we trust either of them? Even if we should, would we be able to? If I strike you down preemptively because my Spidey sense is tingling, I had better be able to turn up some proof after the fact or I am just some lunatic who has murdered the beloved custodian of Glorantha, no?

In general the Orlanthi give the Storm Bulls great leeway because they have proven their capacity regarding fighting Chaos both mythologically and historically. (Zorak Zoran gets similar leeway in troll society.) The Orlanthi all acknowledge that Arkat was powerful and that he destroyed Gbaji. But unlike Storm Bull, he is treacherous. Arkat betrayed the Orlanthi to the trolls. When victorious over Gbaji, he turned over rule of Dragon Pass not to the Heortling kings but to the trolls. 

40 minutes ago, mfbrandi said:

“Look, I was right about that baby-eating broo with three heads that dribbled a trail of radioactive slime, wasn’t I? So you must trust me when you catch me decapitating harmless old people just trying to grow a few turnips — I’m only doing it to save the world. Evidence? Schmevidence!”

It is perhaps worth pointing out that the Arkat cult largely has to exist as a secret society in most human societies. Arkat is acknowledged by the Orlanth as the King of Battles (among other things), and as the most powerful hero of all time. But he betrayed humanity to the trolls, embraced Zorak Zoran, and so on. 

Several thoughts:
1. There are those who say in the end Arkat became a monster to destroy Gbaji. Some say that means he became a Mistress Race Troll who joined the cult of Zorak Zoran (which is generally known to be true), others claim that means he became a Chaos monster (which is generally claimed to be false). What is certain is that Arkat emerged from Dorastor and established a peaceful empire in Ralios.

2. The Orlanthi trust the Storm Bull cultists as the experts on sniffing out Chaos. That being said, something obviously Chaotic is treated as Chaotic. Even if the Storm Bulls are confused that it doesn't seem Chaotic. Everyone knows that Gbaji is the deceiver, after all.

3. The human Arkat cult has ways of sniffing out Illuminates, and unless those Illuminates are Arkati, the Arkati usually try to kill them if possible.

1 hour ago, Soccercalle said:

The mistake Chaosium did was to try to fit it in 2-3 books until last fall. If they hade decided on a ten book plan 3-4 years ago some of them would already been published. 

Unlikely.

16 hours ago, soltakss said:

Well, there is, because the point of POW spent adds to the Rune Pool, and any increase in the Rune Pool allows an Adventurers to learn a new Runespell. p313-314 of the RQG Rules has this quote:

 

Not all deities have power to lend, even to their initiates.

Yes. In fact shamanism is the main source of magic for broo - both Thed and Mallia have shaman-priests.

Here's the original royal genealogy that Greg and I put together. 

Re potato, I suggest you check the Guide to Glorantha. I think you will find that we do not have potatoes. YGWV, but in Chaosium publications that is something that gets cut out in editing. 

33 minutes ago, metcalph said:

As far as I see it, an Orlanthi Thunderous worshipping Heler would normally get access to his special rune magics (Rain, Flood etc) but not any magics of his associate deities - that is nothing from the river gods, the grain goddesses and so on.  If he were to show up at the River Temple or Grain Temple, he would get the magic that the god or goddess provides *Orlanth* rather than Heler.  To benefit from Heler's associates, an Orlanthi would have to develop an identity as a Helering, like sacrifice a point of POW to join the Helering cult.

So in Orlanthi lands, Heler would not have a separate cult but his dedicated worshippers can be found attached to the temples to Orlanth, taking on the roles of Heler in the rituals.  A similar situation exists for Barntar.

 

Correct. Heler is worshiped by most Orlanth cultists as Rain, the loyal follower ever at Orlanth Thunderous' beck and call. That's pretty much all he is - the source of the Rain spell.

However, even they know him as a once-mighty Water god, brother to Magasta, Triolina, and Nelat. As an independent god, Heler is the father of King Undine, source of water elementals and nymphs, and an ancestor of the triolini. As Lorion, he is the Celestial River, the source of the water that falls from the sky.  These connections can only be explored by Heler's dedicated worshipers. This is a very small cult in Dragon Pass, but it does exist.

4 hours ago, Joerg said:

To make my intentions clear: Nobody should have to memorize that entire list of Thunder Rebel "single rune spell" subcults in order to play an Orlanthi. Leave that to nerdy pub-quizzes.

The various suggested subcults in HW did a lot to make playing a worshiper of Orlanth less run-of-the-mill compared to the previous RuneQuest incarnations, and brought to attention a lot of potential specializations, supporting these as possible previous experience options which would give the character a range of abilities commensurate with that specialization. Something that can be done in RQG without breaking the system or the (non-existent) game balance just as well in your game/Glorantha.

In my experience they did little except to create over-specialised classes and were a barrier for many players and GMs.