Jeff

11 hours ago, jajagappa said:

And which cult has mind control???

 

That was my first question!

Some spirit cults are established by shamans but end up being maintained by priests, or even by a senior initiate. Others are formed by a shaman and die with that shaman. 

There's a tremendous amount of flexibility with them. Examples of spirit cults include: Oakfed, Six Sisters, Black Fang, Elk Woman, Lightning Boy, Thunderbird, Gustbran, Green Bow, Stone Heart, and many many more.

7 minutes ago, scott-martin said:

All right, Lacan. Let's go.

The most archaic published version of the LBQ we have (RQ2, expanded for Cults of Prax) is oedipal / adolescent / adventurous, making no mention of the god being married at all . . . no bride rivalry, zero cult association with "Ernalda" (this is reserved at this stage for the Bull), and only the "sweet green woman" obligation on wind lords even hints at any kind of courtship. She just isn't there. Instead the motivation for the quest is generational: the Big O (we have come to terms) sets out to redeem his parents from the literal sins of the fathers and the crimes perpetuated on the mothers.

We could be forgiven for reading this version of the myth as being experienced "before" the O+E hierogamy was established at all, either developmentally in terms of the characters or historically in terms of the way the cults have evolved within Time. This is also the version that prevailed before the once-open signifier "Ginna Jar" was fixed . . . whoever compiled Cults of Prax (Biturian Varosh himself?) either thinks they're proposing a revolutionary new hypothesis by equating this figure with both ghost Glorantha and the living Arachne Solara or is too coy (ritually constrained) to simply assert it as fact.

Either scenario is interesting. However, Ernalda remains neither absent nor present but simply not considered relevant at this stage. She isn't a factor. It isn't her story. If I recall correctly, this is the status quo in the somewhat fragmentary Harmast materials we have. Harmast is no stranger to women and how to satisfy their mythic prerogatives, but his quest isn't what I'd call a romantic rescue mission and there's no shadowy female figure pulling the strings. By the time you get back to Cults of Prax, the ginna jar only appears at the brink of the world and is sometimes even a dude.

I spent decades working with the ginna jar as a sort of moveable ritual feast or sliding symbol that could be redefined to fit personal circumstances. This was "the crack" in the system that "lets the light get in," to quote one of our airplane crews in recent weeks. It was how the cosmos, broken or otherwise, somehow manages to ensure that a sufficiently advanced quest team "gets what it needs." The handshake of the sign.

And that worked for a few decades. But the sign itself cried out for a handshake and smart people worked really hard to fix the open signifier. The Cults of Prax compiler is part of this process. Some time between that book (1615-7?) and the Gloranthan now, people decided to promulgate the identification of the "ghost" in the ginna jar machine with Ernalda, and from there since the ghost is also the spider it's a short associative hop to identify Ernalda with the cosmic spider. 

This is okay. Signs are by their nature always opening and closing. Belintar or some more contemporary "pseudo-Belintar" is right to make these associations as long as they get you where you need to go. Maybe before the seasonal narrative of Ernalda was a separate entity, neither absent nor present nor relevant to the LBQ. At a certain point she steps in to fill the deliberately empty sign. We can read this as adventurous growing up a little. Or we can shake off a "false" close, stay on the quest and see where it ultimately takes us. As mentioned up thread, I'm thrilled to see the earth complex get some agency, even if it's topping from the bottom.




--

Ernalda is often associated with Gina Jar. So is Glorantha herself. 

Gina Jar is the ghost of something important that has been lost and is gone. The Orlanthi give it a feminine identity, but that may have as much to do with the sleeping Earth goddess before the Sacred Time as anything else. 

In short she's a mystery element in the ceremony. If WE mortals are Flesh Man, Gina Jar is our lost dreams, love and hopes..

9 minutes ago, Agentorange said:

Winter wheat is all I'm going to say here 😄

Durum.....is pasta a thing in Glorantha ?

Winter wheat is certainly planted in Esrolia, where they say Esrolia sleeps through the winter. You harvest it in early Fire Season.

But in Dragon Pass it is rarer, and most say Esrolia dies each winter.

Ernalda goes to sleep/dies every Dark Season, when the fertile earth is covered with snow and frost. You can't grow anything, the leaves are all gone, and grain is nothing but dead stalk. I can see it just outside my office.

Given that this thread has either wandered off to a rather interesting discussion about religion, belief, and its role in the setting - which should be its own thread - or continues to go back to DucksMustDie trolling of the setting, I'm going to just lock this down. Time to create a new thread.

5 minutes ago, DucksMustDie said:

The problem with Argrath is this. He´s the ultimate crazy cultist who knows everything. He can do anything. He´s been everywhere. He can kill anyone. He hardly reminds a human, he´s like Superman but worse, there´s no kryptonite to kill him --> he´s boring. Impossible to relate with 

Wow, that is quite the straw man argument. 

50 minutes ago, Noirfatale said:

Hello, I just started to read Runequest roleplaying in Glorantha. P18 : 

is there a explanation why? considering that Orlanth and the other lightbringers had to ressurect the sun god to save the world. Just curious if there is more on this - I only own the first book (for now).

Thanks!

A less partisan take than Nick gave is that Orlanth and the Young Gods demanded their own place in the cosmos. Yelm said no and so Orlanth challenged Yelm for rule. Orlanth used Death to kill Yelm, and the Air Gods got to make their own domain. Think of this as a repetition of Umath, son of Sky and Earth, tearing his parents apart to make room for himself.

2 minutes ago, Akhôrahil said:

I think one of the problems here is what we see happening in the comic - he swears on the River Styx, and that essentially means revoking his free will and any concerns whatsoever apart from that oath (this is the reason no sensible person swears that way, or is expected to). This is why, as you say, he's a mere object now, a plot-point that walks like a man. He gave himself up 100% to Fate, and this is what happens to you when you do that. It would be a tragedy, except for all the damage he does.

I wrote the comic. It is just one take on the character, and never even got far enough to explore the character past the Cradle scenario. The purpose of the comic was more about Kalin and I playing around with ideas and visuals, that later informed what became RQG. The idea was never that the comic was to become the definitive treatment of the characters.

At the time I was playing around with the idea that the Red Goddess was behind the Hero Wars, seeking a way out of the prison that she had put herself in. Argrath, her self-proclaimed Destroyer, would aid her in her Liberation and the rise of the White Moon. 

If I were to do it again, I would likely present it quite differently. 

But since people are putting labels on characters based on the comic, here's my take. Argrath's not a sociopath, he's a shaman. Same with Harrek and Jar-eel. They all see into the Otherworld, into the realm of gods and spirits, and all see their paths through the mundane world accordingly. 

21 minutes ago, mfbrandi said:

We seem to have lapsed into even one-note Harrek is more interesting than Argrath. What is going on?

I enjoy all the main characters in the story and find them all filled with complexities and contradictions - all of these characters are flexible enough to support a variety of interpretations and takes.  

Pelorian languages are all strongly base 10. 

Theyalan languages give a number for each of the days of Sacred Time, so 1-14. 15 gets represented as 1-1, 28 as 1-14, and so on until we get to 210 which gets a new signifier. 

1 hour ago, Darius West said:

I don't see Argrath that way at all, and authoritarianism isn't the way Orlanthi govern.  In a land where one of the laws is "nobody can make you do anything", that sort of thing "won't scow".  Chiefs and Kings have a certain amount of authority, but they more than most understand that they rule only with the consent and trust of the governed, which they have to constantly earn by choosing the right thing to do and being better at the job than other candidates.  While the Monarchy of Sartar might be determined by blood, the chiefs of clans and the kings of tribes are substantially meritocratic, because the ring will listen to the people, and if they fail the people, they will vote with their feet.

I see Argrath quite differently.  His early life is one broken by war.  Then he is driven from his home and forced into Praxian slavery.  Eventually he wins freedom and respect from his captors.  Then he becomes a Big Rubble adventurer, sword trainer, and wind lord.  We don't quite know when he becomes an illuminate.  He Hero Quests with Gonn Orta, and is pivotal in the White Bull society of the Praxians before he gets caught up in the Cradle and meets the Wolf Pirates.  

Now Harrek the Berserk is an authoritarian, and when Argrath stands up to him, and argues for why the Cradle needs to be left to go on its way.  Harrek petulantly kills Argrath for his temerity, but accepts his argument.  Argrath gets resurrected, but takes months to recover.

I see Argrath as mercurial, highly intelligent of the lateral thinker variety, and a seeker after the magical secrets of the world.  I see him less as a warrior and more of a "wizard" for this reason.  Argrath is powerful because of what he knows, probably more than he is for how he fights.  I do think Argrath is manipulative, and an intriguer, certainly a great negotiator, but he grew up being hunted for his few drops of Royal blood, so he needed those skills to survive the assassinations (we all know how he hates assassins).  I think Argrath is a military genius, and I think he is a reincarnation of Arkat who was born to be the shadow nemesis of the Red Moon Goddess.  Given his multiple failures, we cannot call him a Mary Sue like Jar Eel, or a brute like Harrek.  He's an interesting character.

I don't view Harrek as being particularly authoritarian at least in the modern sense of things. He leads through raw power and possessed with the divine fury of the White Bear. Bödvar Bjarki, Heracles, Edward Teach, Conan (with Gunda as a Bêlit figure), Gilgamesh, Rostam, etc. He expects to be obeyed by those who follow him, but he hardly has a regime to speak of. The Wolf Pirates are loyal to him because he is the White Bear - he's proven his strength and brings victories, plunder, and wealth. When he announces that he is going to raid, other Wolf Pirates flock to him! This of course is part of the reason that he is such a pillager and plunderer - he generously rewards his followers and allies!

Now Harrek doesn't do diplomacy or negotiation. He's not someone who can hold disparate groups together. But he's likely shrewder than people assume.  

1 minute ago, Nick Brooke said:

You mention Gilgamesh, but Harrek could almost be Enkidu to Jar-eel's Ishtar, if you'll pardon the quibble. He is a hairy wild man, while she is smooth and fair, a tamer of brutes.

We (Finn and I) were just reading that (Epic of Gilgamesh) together earlier today (as part his Literature class), and I think perhaps Beat-Pot is a better Enkidu. 

As the person who has put together the Dragon Pass Campaign, a few thoughts.

We know that a lot of the Hero Wars gets driven by a several key figures:

Red Emperor. He's a mortal holding the office of a god. A war leader, a magician, and the head of an empire. He's inescapable in the setting, and baked into the present and the past (or as King of Sartar puts it "Being").

Argrath. A mortal who is on the path to godhood. A magician, a war leader, and someone who is forging a new empire. He's also inescapable in the setting, but of growing relevance in the future (or as King of Sartar puts it, "Becoming").

Then we have three figures who are terrifying beings that are truly part mortal and part god. They smash things up and change the setting. We have:

Jar-eel the Razoress, a figure like Babalon, the Scarlet Woman, or Inanna, the living embodiment of both the positive and negative features of civilization and the Lunar Way. She's already present and doing things in the Lunar Empire right now and shows up in Dragon Pass in 1628.

Harrek the Berserk, a figure like a savage Heracles, Gilgamesh, Achilles, Conan, etc. He's the living embodiment of wanton savagery and barbarism, but also of fearless heroism. He's already present and doing things at the edge of Dragon Pass right now.

Androgeus, the Twins manifested in one body, but in Disorder rather than Harmony. A disruptive figure - strife bringer, avenger of the oppressed, drawn to conflict and perpetuator of it. They are not present yet, but coming. 

These characters form the Arthur, Guinevere, Lancelot, Merlin, and Mordred figures in the setting. Just like in Pendragon, players rarely want the responsibility of those roles.

[Yes there are also other characters like the Feathered Horse Queen, Gunda, Beat-Pot, Jaldon, etc., but they are like Percival, Tristan, Lady of the Lake, Galahad figures.]

As a writer, these characters are as baked into the setting as is the Red Moon, Orlanth, or the Lunar Empire. You can decide to dump any or all of them, after all YGWV, but they are present in everything Chaosium publishes, even if a book doesn't mention them. 

Your player-characters can have stories that weave around these characters, directly interact with them, ignore them, supplement them, or even replace them (if you want to have one of your player-characters become the next Red Emperor, go for it, although that's unlikely to be a path in published products). Present these characters as moral exemplars, villains, whatever - I personally view all of them as heroes, in the classical sense. They straddle the world of men and gods, which usually means they do great AND terrible things.  

5 minutes ago, Summersong said:

See, this is an approach I never got. Not everything, everywhere, has to be about you, all the time. I've read any number of, for instance, Star Wars EU Rebellion Era texts, and not a single one was diminished by the distant possibility of Luke Skywalker and Han Solo probably sorting out the bigger issues a few years down the track. Stories, good stories, are not so fragile. And it's a big world, full of people.

And here's what Greg and I found over decades of play. Far more players and gamemasters prefer the Pendragon approach, where the players do not have the burden of carrying the setting, but get to do cool things and interact with major figures and then go off and do their thing. Greg and I talked about the "multiple Argraths or one" as part of the Guide to Glorantha, and we both concluded that the approach taken in the old HW material was a failure. The Guide makes it clear that there is one Argrath, and that is the approach taken from there on.

56 minutes ago, Agentorange said:

Mmmmm....mind you even scholarly artifice can contain the truth  😁

Yes - but they often cover it up as well. 

Really the origin of the harpies is pretty wide open. Gods Age curse. Rinliddi folk who sided with Chaos in the Greater Darkness or during the Gbaji Wars. Escaped failed EWF experiment.

Personally, I give them an ancient Pelorian ancestry. Bird worshipers who were cursed by Chaos. 

On 12/22/2022 at 4:19 PM, Agentorange said:

In the bestiary they are listed under creatures of chaos, yet there doesn't seem tobe anything particularly chaotic about them, they certainly don't seem to have any strange chaotic abilities ( unless you count the poo.....) and they don't get a chaotic feature , highly unusual in that part of the bestiary.

the gloranthan sourcebook mentions " bird women " as one of the beast people types.

So are harpies beast people who have been tainted by chaos or chose to follow it. Or are they something completely different  that just happen to have a superficial resemblence to Beast Folk ?

Good question. The harpies spread disease, are consistently lumped with the creatures of Chaos, and certainly associate with Chaos in Dorastor. But they do not have Chaos features.

So what is their origin? The answer is that Gloranthan scholars don't know. The Wind Children resolutely reject the idea that they are kin. Harpies are recorded in Second Age and earlier documents, which means they don't have a connection with the Beast Folk of Dragon Pass. One scholar suggested that they a Beast Folk ancestress and even hypothesised an ancestral goddess (Magra) but this was a scholarly artifice. 

49 minutes ago, mfbrandi said:

That — that is what we want!

I think the problem with Argrath is that he stands for the metaplot, for the future already written. For some people, that will chafe. Some will want to skip ahead to the “open” bit of the future post-Argrath. Doesn’t matter how brilliantly the metaplot and Argrath’s characterization are done, for some it will be a bore. Others not so much, and they will enjoy weaving around the story as it trickles down from above.

Maybe sometimes that frustration gets expressed as attacks on Argrath’s character or effectiveness. It is not as if an Argrath who is more of a strongman is what we need, a Putin on steroids. Expressing a happiness with the metaplot (or the existence of a metaplot) as approval of Argrath as a person or as a hero would — IMVHO — equally miss the point.

There has been a metaplot as to what is going to happen in Dragon Pass since before RuneQuest was a game. The specific events are less important than the four key individuals - the Red Emperor, Jar-eel, Argrath, and Harrek. RuneQuest was written around them (and not vice versa). Now the Hero Wars Campaign presents a "monomyth" of the stories and arranges them in a cohesive fashion. But just as with WBRM, you are welcome to have your own battles and campaigns.

I suppose you could also dump the Red Emperor just as or even more easily. But sure, Pendragon without Arthur, Stormbringer with Elric, Rome without Caesar, or whatever. Personally, I find that dull, but to each their own.

4 hours ago, Kloster said:

As far as I have understood, Clan leader automatically becomes member of Orlanth's Rex subcult.

A candidate for chief in an Orlanthi clan must be an Orlanth initiate. They can be initiated to something else as well, but at a very minimum need to be an Orlanth initiate.

On 12/21/2022 at 2:27 AM, Brian Duguid said:

In the Guide (page 19), the Pralori are said to hunt opossums. I'm personally happy that they are the marsupial exception to the broader rule.

I was referring to kangaroos and wallabies. There are opossums in Genertela. 

On 12/15/2022 at 1:16 PM, kalidor said:

I have a question for the Tribe. Is posible to be a Thane of an Earth Temple and not be under the Tribe authority? For example, being a thane of  the Greenstone temple but not under the rule of the Rex of the Malanni tribe. Only responding to the high priestess of Greenstone. 

OK thane literally means “Martial Companion,” this denotes a member of the Orlanthi martial aristocracy. Often transliterated as “Lord”. 

Groups with enough wealth to support a full-time Orlanth (or similar martial cult) cultist with a horse or chariot and all the trappings can have a thane. A thane also is expected to take a leadership role in the local community, leading patrols, forcing off bandits, predators, monsters, etc. Now the Earth Temple doesn't normally do that, as they look to other cults for that, and defend themselves with members of the Babeester Gor cult. But Greenstone might do that for the husband-protector of the High Priestess (or her representative) if she wishes.

Now remember that Orlanth Rex gets the backing of Greenstone and all the other key cult leaders. So within the Malani areas, we have two top dogs - the tribal king (the local BIG MAN), and the Prince of Sartar (whom even the local big man is expected to defer to). 

But Orlanthi politics don't have well defined organisational charts. You have basically two social tiers - tenants/free commoners and the lords/priests (many of whom come out of the tenant/free commoner families). The Orlanth Rex cult sits on top of all of that, but there's a lot of jostling. 

There are no kangaroos or wallabies in Prax, the Wastes, Pent, Peloria, Dragon Pass, or the Holy Country. Pretty sure none in the West either.

The Lopers are not any sort of known marsupial. Here's the art direction for them:

Lopers are primarily carnivores, though they also dine with relish on melons, eggs, and fresh carrions. They feed upon live prey of almost any size and type.