metcalph

It's translated as the Empty Saving Hearth according to History of the Heortling Peoples p108

I should caution once again that although the horse information is quite Greggly in origin, since it has not re-appeared in the New Canon, it like Lives of Sedenya, Shreds of Light and Reason should assumed to be postcanonical. They would be postcanonical if the people who tended them were actually Hsunchen. But the Galanini were Orlanthi. Gamatae or Gametae comes from the Glorious ReAscent footnote 120 p37 (most recent edition).

Actually this (and a further quote) is from History of the Heortling Peoples p108. And before calling Monrogh a dubious source, it's kind of important to show that he actually is dubious.

It doesn't show Yelm as a pile of dust, Plentonius writes that pile of dust on the wall is a portion of Yelm and ascribes the apparent contradiction to Yelm's foresight. That's a big difference. If you look at the Entekosiad, you see a reference to the Ash Man whose description is a much better fit than what Plentonius says. So while Plentonius' description of what the God Walls can and should be challenged, it does not follow that we cannot put the Gods Wall down to any specific period. It shows an Emperor receiving worship from the Gods of Five Peoples (four of whom are shown wearing dress corresponding to Rinliddi, Zarkos, Darsen and Suvaria). The Emperor is seated on a dais held up by a women crowned with a city. That shows that cities were important in his empire. Among the Gods is Oslira the River Goddess and the ten sons and workers who helped Lodril in taming the river. That shows that the river had been tamed and was being used for agriculture. All this and more places the Gods Wall as being constructed within the Late Golden Age.

The iconography is closer to the original practice rather than the GRAY text which was compiled in the Dawn Age. Given that there's been little change in the appearance of many gods (Doburdon was identified as being on the weall through his iconography although Plentonius appears not to have known him, the similarity of contemporary iconography of the Gods with their Gods Wall appearance would be a fairly strong piece of evidence. The Dara Happan chronology parallels the Orlanthi (Fire Tribe/Storm Tribe etc) and also the Vithelans, Malkioni and Doraddi. You can assert the the precise datings are bogus but to say that one event really happened in a different era requires far stronger evidence. Compounded that with Avivorus using a Sunspear where Hastatus is shown as using a more mundane spear, I doubt that the identification of the two as the same god is tenable.

Wyrm Footprints IMO is so old that some of the more high fantasy elements were included in many cult descriptions without much forethought. Looking at the Wall and the Glorious ReAscent, there's little sign of anybody riding any griffins or other flying creatures in Dara Happan mythology. As a result, the cult of Yelm the Rider has become toned down into a more pedestrian age occupation among the Pentans (Dastal the Hunter) and that there is no tradition of riding flying creatures in Dara Happa (that's not to say there are more modern practices but they would not originate with Yelm).

That's incorrect (although it is what Plentonius claims). Hastatus appears on the Gods Wall which means he was worshiped as a God in the Golden Age. Avivorus wields the Sunspear against Emperor Orogoros in the Storm Age. Ergo Hastatus and his Spear preceded Avivorus and his Sunspear by a thousand years. In HQ terms, Avivorus would teach the Sunsear Feat while Hastatus would have an affinity involving general spear combat (but I don't think this extends to pike and shield combat since it was unknown when he was worshiped).

Anaxial's Roster is hardly canonical, especially the one liner mythlets contained in the creature descriptions. You would be on much stronger ground citing KoS p165 "The Animal Nomads and the horse nomads had been feuding since before the beginning of Time. Both [Pentans and Praxians - PHM] claimed they were the chosen children of Genert, the dead god whose land was wasted."

I'm afraid I don't have a timeline as there are many questions that I have yet to suss out. The first is what happened at the Hill of Gold? In the standard conventiional retelling as per Pavis: Gateway to Adventure p379, Yelmalio loses everything and comes out the better for it (the Passion of Yelmalio so to speak). But according to the Glorious ReAscent p44, one of the Prince of the Ten Tests treats the Hill of Gold as a plundering expedition and comes away with the Orb of Authority. Which would be plausible if he were a God Learner but he's not. There's also the detail that Questors can pick up fire crystals at the Hill of Gold P:GtA p118 which allows them to circumvent the lesson that Yelmalio supposedly learned. It's like going up to Mt Sinai to get the ten tablets and on the way down pick up pieces of the Golden Calf to allow you to use forbidden magic without God making a fuss. But as a result of this, we can conclude that there was a tradition of a quester going up the Hill to become the Last Light. I suppose the tradition may have been influenced by the Heortling Star Heart mystery (Sartar: Kingdom of Heroes p77). The next innovation is the Battle of Night and Day. Daysenervus appears and breaks the Cosmic Compromise. History of the Heortling Peoples p21. I think the Daysenerus cult was about using Illumination to use Light Feats etc that previously required a ridiculous amount of purity, noble blood etc. Presumably at this time the Sun Domers organized themselves as a phalanx to make themselves useful while they were still trying to become illuminated. Perhaps it was a mandate by the Emperor - provide x amount of phalanxes rather than sit around doing nothing. The Illuminates were killed by Arkat and what was left behind was a pallid cult of light worshipping spearmen. The relevation of Tharkantus I don't have much of an idea. I'm not convinced it was Kargzant related. I think the secret died out in the battles against the EWF and the surviving cultists not having much a reason to oppose them any longer decided to fight for them instead. And that is how they came to Prax. The next phase of Yelmalion evolution comes from the Empire of Sheng Seleris IMO. He is a big fan of native fire cults and gruesome austerities and so the Sun Domers of Dragon Pass acquired a tradition of ridiculous geases to makes themselves acceptable to Sheng Seleris. This is undocumented and inferred from that the Empire controlled Prax (Guide to Glorantha p142) Finally Monrogh. As per King of Sartar p169, I feel his innovation was not bringing back the secret of Yelmalio but to provide an interpretation of Yelmalio that avoided overt submission to the Emperor that in return didn't bring out the Orlanthi bushwhackers. In other words, they were sufficiently not servants of the Emperor to be accepted to Orlanthi tribals everywhere and sufficiently disciplined that they could be trusted as agents of distant Kings.

A debate about horses. Oh dear. Here's what I can find out. Horses appear on the Wall. In the actual placing, they are a type of demon which suggests that Hippogriff has already been wounded. Now the dating of the Gods Wall is a big question in itself (Plentonius - Yelm's enthronement, Iverlanthus - Murharzarm's murder, me - Murharzarm's enthronement) but I think it safe to say that nobody rode horses in the Golden Age. The first mention of ridden horses comes from the same period. The beginning of the reign of Manarlavus. In the Glorious ReAscent, it's portrayed as a discovery by the city of Nivorah while the Entekosiad p51 has the first horsemen appearing as being summoned by Eskarlavus to fight the Bird People of Dashrell (Eskarlavus dies and his brother takes over). Now what's happening here is that Eskarlavus is summoning troops from the four quarters of the world (According to the Glorious ReAscent, they are the Zarkos, the Suvarians, the Pelandans and the Jarasans). Since Eskarlavus is fighting bird people, he can't very well use them so he substitute horses instead. For a long time, I thought that since the Jarasans come from the Northwest, their replacements should too. Thus Eskarlavus has made contact with the first horsemen in Pent and hired them to defeat the Bird People. As a result, his brother settles them in Nivorah as a reward whereupon they revolt. With the publication of the Guide and its completed piccie of the Gods Wall, I am now not so sure. I had originally thought that the identification of Gamara on the wall was an after the fact rationalisation based on the original stick figure that looked nothing whatsoever like a horse. Now I think it possible for Nivorah to have discovered riding horses by themselves. The horsemen of Nivorah would have worshipped Reladivus (whose name as has been pointed out is a masculine version of Reldayle), Hippoi and Hyalor. Now Reladivus has a history (or rather mythology) prior to his riding horses. As well as being the God of the City, he is associated with an old debt (GRoY p13) which Murharzarm resolves with token jars and the Sandals of Innocence. This may be related to the Sandals of Separation which Yelm wears (GRoY p7) to keep the pure skin from touching the impure earth. Hence what I think has happened was that the holyfolk of Nivorah had a tradition of remaining out of earthern contact in order to remain pure. Originally they had special shoes but then took to riding on beasts (cattle, sheep) before settling on horses. Hyalor was probably the King of Nivorah who took up riding hoses. So that's one of the two traditions of horsemanship in Peloria. The Starlight Ancestors, the other tradition, are originally from what is now Votankiland who make their way northwards swing around the Hungry Plateau and occupy what remains of Dara Happa. I believe they obtained their horses from Pent. A bygone Gregly document (Ancestors of the Lenshi Kings now of uncertain canonity) makes this somewhat implicit with the Starlight Ancestors fighting another tribe at what is now the Elf Sea. Eventually they make peace, the two tribes become one and Kargzant and Horses start to become mentioned afterwards. Unlike the Hyalorings/Hyalorong of erstwhile Nivorah, they are Chariot-Riders. Now the Guide mentions Star Captains providing light during the Great Darkness at the Celestial Eagle Hills p368 ST. These hills are in the middle of Pent near the Snowline and far out of the way of the Starlight Ancestors.. The Highest Peak is Polestar Mountain where Polestar taught the Star Gazers. It's no coincidence surely that Buserian invented his frame from the remains of a Yurt. It's my belief that Kargzant and his charioteers came from Pent (in the region of the Celestial Eagle Hills) and made their way to Peloria where they came into contact with the Starlight Ancestors. As a result, their gods were Kargzant, Buserian and Pole Star. The combined tribes then conquered Dara Happa where they met with the Hyalorings and learned from them the secret of riding horses. With that knowledge, Pent becomes open to significant human habitation and the rest is history.

There's a bit of confusion here. Hastatus is not associated with Nivorah. Urvarinus removed Sagittus (the Bow God) from the ruins of Elempur to become the Imperial Bowman in Raibanth GRaY p25. As for Hastatus being the source of the Sun Dome pikeman, I think it is Daxdarius who is the source of phalanxes and pike-fighting.

Wyrms are reported as being ridden by the Scouts of Kartolin Pass in 146 according to Dorastor: Land of Doom p146. Hence I think they originated in the Storm Age.

In the Broken Council Guidebook (caveats about canonity), Yelorna was the sister to the four sons of Eneral (Vustr, Korion, Uton and Fornao). Either way, she could have hid among the elves of Tarinwood during the Great Darkness and still be associated with Hrelar Amali.

Foundchild doesn't always have a bow and I have a feeling he would be hunting in the Celestial Desert rather than the Celestial Forest. Perhaps the Thasus constellation.

I don't think Yelmalio is Antirius. Antirius is a more fiery god capable of giving out sunspears. I derive Antirius from Ent - Turos, (Right Turos, cf Entekos). In other words, Antirius is a manifestation of Turos as the upholder of Righteous Order. There is an association with the Sun Dome Temples and Antirius (Avivath sees the first Sun Dome temple to Antirius in Kestinaddi) but that's a style of temple and one that does not proceed directly from Antirius. It was used for Daysenervus in Saird because Saird was a place of the Amalgram deities in which various religious influences were imported and synthesised Daysenervus' magics would be related to what Daysenervus did at the Sunstop. Ourania is known to the Arirae as FerNa (cf the Entekosiad p59 - the tears give it away) where she acts as a Creatrix. She doesn't wield any bows there and so I find it difficult to see her acting as the Starbringer or the wielder of the Meteor Bow. Conceptually Yelorna is about as far removed from Ourania as you can get. Lastly Yelorna first appears in Tarinwood according to http://www.glorantha.com/docs/safelster-in-the-first-age/

I thought she would have been better identified as the Hunter constellation making her an equivalent of Lestakus/Saggitus (Dara Happa Archer God), Hensarava (Eastern Isles) or Jumo (Kralorela).

This current situation, I feel, has arrived in Sun County after a long period of trial and error testing. In Dragon Pass, I note that the High Priest is also the Count (Wyrms Footnotes #15) indicating that the Yelmalions there have not the institutional wisdom to keep the twin powers of count and high priest separate.

The Byzantines (whom MOB borrowed for their political stories which he then pumped full of steriods for use in Sun County) had a Patriarch and an Emperor who belonged to the same faith. There was serious political rivalry there. The absence of the High Priestrs list proves my point. The High Priests are more august than the Counts and so should be reckoned as the real heads of state in Sun County. Despite this, the kids are *not* being taught their names. My feeling as to why there is no list is that many of the High Priests were declared of damnable memory and expunged from the record. People can only get a hint of what might have happened through additions to the lists of Prohibitions over time (5th edition No smoking Hazia! No wearing Red! No multiple marriages!)

The terrain being talked about not only sustained the Teshnans, it also sustains Corflu (a recent settlement but still 1000 strong) and sustained Feroda (which is bigger than Corflu but not as big as New Pavis - Pavis: Gateway to Adventure p304) and Kitoy in the Dawn Age (Pavis and Big Rubble p17). It is unsuited to nomads but not to sedentary farmers. Teshnos in particular has several inhabited swamps - such as the Tesho Marsh. The region is being shown as controlled, not merely explored (the territory searched and explored by Selenteen would be far larger even if it would be encounters like: Selenteen: Have you seen or heard of a Red Sword? Nomads: No, we have not. What is this Lost Calm you speak of?). On other maps, the territory is shown as being controlled or under the influence of the EWF and the Empire of Sheng Seleris. If the Teshnan merchants are described as being seen in Boldhome then that's significant trade (note: significant trade does not mean major). They are mentioned in the same sentence as the Tanisorans who have a known trade-route to Boldhome then and whose presence would not be controversial. The fact that Teshnan merchants are making it across the Wastes in the absence of a central authority granting them safe passage indicates the route was doable. Selenteen's Landing was around 1250 ST and gone by the arrival of the Selerans who arrive in the region as early as 1362 ST. In that time (1313 ST to be precise), a blue-skinned demigod swims ashore at Kethaela and overthrows the Only Old One. Now it just so happens that the Teshnans were originally settled by the Loper People, a blueskinned tribe from Fonrit. Little to no evidence? That's quite a claim.

Obviously the Priests who created and maintained the Light List are willing to undermine the Counts by pointing out the bad deeds of their successors. You can't find any similar list about the more worthy High Priests, can you?

In the map on the Guide to Glorantha, Selenteen's Landing is quite expansive in territory reaching as far as the Five Eyes temple and the Senitel on the shore. It's significantly buigger than the Uz-controlled Rubble whereas Sun County is not even shown as an independent state. Judging by area alone, it Sun County has 19,000 people then Selenteen's Landing should be over 30,000. As for how it was settled, coastal sea travel remains a possibility (hell even Sheng Seleris was brave enough to send a fleet which almost made it to Vormain). Given that Teshnos was trading with Sartar in Saronil's time (King of Sartar p190 has Teshnan merchants in Boldhome in 1535 ST - a good half century before the Opening), I wouldn't be so dismissive about there being no trade or travel between Teshnos and the west before the Closing.

Sorry for misspelling Selenteen. As for there being no sign of any significant Teshnan contact, that falls in the same category as the curious incident of the dog in the night time. It's just down the river! My guess is that the Solitude of Testing is an artefact caused by the deliberate forgetting of large periods of Sun Dome history considering that it's embarrassing to the current priesthood (betrayal of fellow light worshippers, Teshnan debauchery and a nightmarish occupation). Only in the lists of the High Priests would one find hints at the real story.

Its a wee bit more complicated than that. Circa 1250 ST, the Pure Horse Tribe gets destroyed. Yet the Sun Dome Temple continues intact - there's no change in Count or anything. In 1361 ST, the Praxians submit to Sheng Seleris at the Huck Sheng Hills and their submission continues until his death in 1460 ST - they were sending troops to aid in an invasion of Vormain as late as 1452 ST, yet there's no sign of this on the Counts list. My thinking is that originally the Sun Domers were allies of the Pure Horse Tribe. Then came Seleteen and the Sun Domers switched allegiances from the Pure Horse Tribe to the Teshnans. Bereft of their walking allies, the Pure Horse Tribe gets wiped out. Some Sun Dome prohibitions could conceivably be traced to a backlash on Teshnan influences - the wearing of red or disguising oneself as a women. The Teshnan influence lasts until the arrival of the Seleran Empire. I'm of the opinion that the Selerans used Jaldon Toothmaker as a focus for their authority. The Teshnans seem to be destroyed by the Selerans with the Sun Domers making another shift of allegiances to ensure their survival. Their geases may stem from this time as a slavish emulation of Seleran virtues. After the collapse of the Seleran Empire, nomad interest in worshipping Sheng Seleris declines rapidly and they no longer have a need to control the Sun Dome temple.

It appears in RQ2 (p124 of the classic PDF).

I made a joke in the glorantha: intro about Jaldon using this river to leave Dragon Pass during the Dragonkill and ended up getting eaten by a passing red dragon. He would have thought it was the Creakstream River which at that time flowed into the sea near Karse. But this is quite a geographical blunder to make and I doubt one that is plausible (especially in light of Joerg's remark how anybody would remember it). There is in 1609 a Praxian raid of Dorastor (WF #15 p53) which has gone otherwise unremarked (the Praxians go via Aggar). Another possibility might be that in an effort to get rid of Jaldon Toothmaker, Lunar Magicians wove a complicated plot to encourage his spirit to raid Dorastor in a hope to get himself dead for good. Since Jaldon is stuck on a mental map of Dragon Pass that has the Creakstream River following near Karse, the Oslir is the only river that remotely looks like how the Creekstream River is supposed to be. So Jaldon goes northwards from Dragon Pass in an attempt to find Prax. Hence the name.