Darius West

On 12/9/2016 at 1:54 AM, M Helsdon said:

All nine went to the Land of the Dead, and whilst there, were dead. Grandfather Mortal stayed in the Underworld to become Judge of the Dead.

No where is it mentioned that Grandfather Mortal left his body behind.

Flesh Man was the Light Bringer, Grandfather Mortal is not Flesh Man.  Grandfather Mortal was killed by Humakt, and according to Cults of Prax page 14 disappeared from myth at that point.  Subsequently Daka Fal emerged to be the Judge of the Dead, and may or may not have been Grandfather Mortal.  Now while Flesh Man is the descendant of Grandfather Mortal he is not the same entity.  As to whether Grandfather Mortal left his body behind?  The fact that Daka Fal is a shaman cult that deals with the separation of the Living and the Dead based on who owns which body is a salient point, as is the Humakti Sever Spirit spell.  Clearly bodies get left behind by dead people, and periodically, if they are lucky or know how to heal themselves from spirit form, they can come back from the dead by healing their bodies and re-establishing their spirit within them.

As an important aside, consider the Brithini.  They cannot resurrect because while they have a connection to the Infinity and the Magic Rune thanks to Zzabur, they have no connection to the Spirit Rune.  Brithini are expressions of the Man Rune without access to the Spirit Rune.  They have no means of retaining identity after death.  As a cultural aside note, this would mean that Brithini don't have ghost stories.

On 12/9/2016 at 1:54 AM, M Helsdon said:

.Orpheus was granted permission to leave the Underworld by Hades; Hades also gave permission for Eurydice to leave with him. Hades set conditions upon each of them getting out, which Orpheus broke when he had returned to the Mortal World but she had not, meaning that her permission to leave was revoked. Being already in the Mortal World when he broke the conditions, Orpheus was not trapped in the Underworld.

Incorrect.  Orpheus gained the lore of where a gate to the underworld was in Thrace, and learned that he needed to pay Charon not only the 2 obols for entry but with a sprig of mistletoe as payment on the return journey.  Of course Hades could have kept him in the underworld, Hades is after all the ruler there, but Orpheus moved Hades and Persephone with his musical lament for Euridice.  Later heroes in Greek myth learned from Orpheus and his failed "hero quest", Odysseus in particular who also uses the mistletoe trick.

Really?  Less canon than Lost City of Eldarad and Daughters of Darkness?  That hardly seems fair, those AH products were the nadir of RQ material ever, having not only bad editing and atrocious art, but crappy generic scenarios.  Say what you like about Mongoose, their editing definitely isn't up to scratch for example, but the art is better than AH products (it could hardly be worse), and the production value of the printing and binding is of good quality.

Having seen at least Eldarad, I am certain that Glorantha Second Age products, while not brilliant like Sun County, Griffin Mountain or Borderlands are at least of a standard equal to Apple Lane and Snakepipe Hollow.  Are there problems vis canon in GSA: Pavis Rises for example ?  Yes, but they are small problems and a work-around is eminently possible.  The "Blood of Orlanth" supplement is, perhaps surprisingly, quite good, and incorporates how Orlanthi Traditionalist, God Learner or EWF parties face different challenges as the story unfolds so a GM could potentially pit 3 parties against each other in the same scenario and watch the fur fly as they try to resolve an Orlanth vs Dragon hero quest to their side's favor.  Is the GSA: Jrustela supplement up to scratch?  Well, if a 6 paragraph gloss about a city is better than a 2 paragraph gloss about a city which has long since fallen into the sea by the 3rd Age, then yes.  On the other hand the strength of the GSA Jrustela supplement is the Hwarosian God Learning 101 lecture, which is darkly humorous, and completely within canon. 

Could the GSA products have used much better editing?  Yes, without doubt.  Are they ALL badly edited? Actually no, but some are definitely dreadful and I didn't buy many of them because of it.  I am not pretending that these supplements are all "of excellent quality and deserve an honored place in everyone's collection", but by the same token I think that some of the supplements deserve a bit more objective criticism than I think they have received.

The notion of playing Glorantha in the Second Age is fun, because it was an age when "munchkins ruled Glorantha" and horribly abused the underlying system in that minimaxing way that rules lawyers do.  In short, GSA was obviously  pitched at AD&D player in the hopes of winning converts, and Glorantha needs converts.  Could it have been done better?  Well it's no Griffin Mountain, but it is definitely better than Lost City of Eldarad.

20 hours ago, Byll said:

Some items on the wall are painted in historical times with real pigments by mortal hands, but what about the long-lasting 'Pre-waste' era images? The Gods' Wall lasts because it is stamped into very hard rock. Are the colors in the god-time images ingrained thought the rock? (If the face flakes off the color is still there in the new surface?) Or does the paint protect the cliff that it is on? If so what about the unpainted spaces between the figures? 

Some of the images are no doubt carved onto the surface and filled in with pigment.  Later additions are more likely to be pigment alone, but a shaman may well decide to spend time carving and pigmenting the image of a favored entity. No doubt the shamans are also quite well disposed to performing running repairs on any damaged images they know, or reporting such damage to an allied shaman with investment in that entity.  As to weathering from sun and dust, well, neither Yelm nor Stormbull is enamored of destroying the site as it would reduce their power, and the lesser entities have even more reason to protect it. As Stormbull winds come out of the East, the cliff is sheltered from them, and as Yelm sets in the west, only weakened rays strike the face of it. On the other hand, many of the images are very old indeed.  It is however a "broken" wall, and there is the impression that the shamans are struggling to maintain a damaged tradition.  

As to the spaces between figures, well, that is where new heroes, spirits and ancestors will be included, and if their power grows, they may gain more prominent representations.  Others like Ronance who was a Green Age big shot in the area are now looking worn.  The wall is a little like a "top 100 pop chart" for the Hidden Traditions (i.e. Shamaic traditions) of Prax, in that there is a slow adoption of the useful new and a simultaneous but slow discarding of the less useful old.  So perhaps a top 100 pop chart that plays out over human generations and centuries rather than a weekly update.

I actually quite like your ideas Byll and my comments are obviously only suggestions based on the way I have GMed shamans in the past. Obviously YGMustV so use whatever you feel offers the best explanation for what you have already established.

On 12/9/2016 at 10:54 PM, Yelm's Light said:

I envisioned something a little more like the Mafia, with Lanbril as capo di tutti capi, as in Stephen Brust's Jhereg series, not so much professional advancement as based on personal loyalty and ability.

Without question I think you can have both a guild structure and one based on personal loyalty and ability.  The two things are far from mutually exclusive, especially when the organizations tend to be small.  Who is the criminal boss likely to promote in this "black market merchant guild" if not someone of high personal loyalty and ability?  The notion of a guild structure is to organize a trade so that it is able to exert political influence, and for an illegal activity, this is a matter of life and death.  Guards need to be paid off, palms need to be greased and favors traded, information needs to be bought and contraband needs to be shifted.  Now whether you call your immediate boss an oyabun, a made man, or a master thief, matters little.  What is important is that the organization has a hierarchy.  For example, I doubt that the Lanbril cult issues you with your "journeyman papers" in a robed ceremony at the guild hall.  It is more likely to be "hey kid, good work back there, buy me a drink after this and you just made journeyman."

That is an interesting idea.  The problem with 1939 is that the Simplon Route where Horror on the Orient Express is set doesn't take you through any actual Nazi occupied territory.  Remember that the entire Orient Express experience took 3 days IRL. The Simplon line doesn't go through Germany, instead it take you through Fascist Italy.  WW2 suspended the international service and though the Germans tried to start it up again during the war it was interrupted by partisans.  On the other hand that doesn't mean you can't have NAZIs using the service on their way to Constantinople from Paris or Milan.  Though the temptation is to make the Nazis into cultists, you could go down a more World War C'thulhu approach and make the Nazis potentially even more appalled by the mythos than the players' characters.  Hehe, you could even make the player have to take Nazi characters, innocent idiots, babe in the woods boy scouts who think they are the good guys and history is on their side because Hitler is the messiah and the mythos is obviously some sort of Jewish plot.  Just a suggestion, but it potentially ups the ante in terms of horror by pointing out that Nazism is an entirely human evil and that the thing they face is much worse even than Nazism.  Of course it would take mature players to get the cosmicist implications.  It sounds like you want to go down a more Pulp C'thulhu sort of route though.

On 12/4/2016 at 4:16 AM, scott-martin said:

Officially, he's the thief god of the Heortlings

To which Tindalos fairly says...

On 12/4/2016 at 0:38 PM, Tindalos said:

Which is confusing in itself, since the Heortlings are more of a rural civilization, compared to many of their neighbors.

The separation here is that Heortling clans raid and steal from other Heortling clans.  A thief in this context is someone who steals from their in-group i.e. from members of their own clan.  This sort of practice isn't very sensible in a small close-knit rural style of society where everyone knows everyone else's business, hence the outlawry clause. Of course it is a trusim to say that  population is key, and the more transactions that are performed, the better the chance for a thief that their activities will go undetected.

It is worth pointing out that the Heortlings are among the most populous and urbanized Orlanthi societies, and it was a short distance to travel to Esrolia with its large cities.  There is only 1 entry for Lanbril in the Guide and that is page 241, featuring the mention of powerful Lanbril gangs operating in large Esrolian cities.

Where Lanbril is different to Orlanth and Trickster, (or Gagarth, Tunoral, and Finovan, ) is the spirit of professionalism in his larceny.  This is not simply a one-off trick or adventure, nor a raid, but a dedicated pattern of parasitism on urban social order as a lifestyle choice, and with the same dedication and organization as one would find in a professional organization like a guild.  This notion goes back to Cervantes' novel "Riconete y Cortadillo", set in Seville, where criminals undergo the same system of professional advancement as any other guild in the city.  While there is no overt evidence to suggest any historicity to the idea, such ideas must come from somewhere...

On 12/4/2016 at 4:16 AM, scott-martin said:

Lanbril also incorporates engineering processes that a casual observer would associate with the dwarves or, a little more hypothetically, the East. The dwarves are infamous immortals. If I were a cult dabbling in the defiance of Death I would want to pilfer as many of their secrets as I can, so maybe the fruits of that pilfering go into the criminal gizmos of Pavis. After all, the Rubble is full of abandoned dwarf gear ripe for the reverse engineering. The alchemy may also come from there or from misunderstood contacts with the esoteric alchemy of the mysterious East: if it wasn't immediately practical, Lanbril despised it as being of no use.

There are quite a few possibilities here.  We really don't know how technical the Esrolian Lanbril cult gets, so it is possible that all the interesing gizmos are entirely a Pavic thing.  On the other hand, I imagine that they could have their origins with the God Learners if not the Mostali, as I can think of few places more conducive to a deity like Lanbril than God Forgot with its Casino Town.  Lanbril despises and steals from other Gods, so why not hide out in a place that other deities don't even remember? Does that sound like a use of Divination Block on a grand scale to you?  I mean obviously it is probably a byproduct of the destruction of Zistor or the weird local Brithini, but it would also be immensely convenient.  And remember, if you master Luck, you can let some other sucker master Death, just stay lucky and don't let him catch you.

On 12/6/2016 at 6:37 PM, Steve said:

If you are in the land of the Dead - aka the Underworld - you are dead. Just like Inanna was dead when she came before her sister Erishkigal's Court. But if you are a hero, you might know a secret path out of the land of the Dead and back to the land of the living - which pretty much makes Death more of an inconvenience than a final destination.

I suspect you are using the term "death" simultaneously more broadly and more narrowly than a Gloranthan would.

I'm surprised that anyone would still be trying to argue against what Jeff has already said so clearly above

While YGWV, as Greg, Jeff and others have always encouraged, I don't think it's helpful to try and argue that what Jeff has said here is "wrong". That's very different from just choosing an alternative interpretation for your own games.

 

Why narrowly assume that this Inanna myth model is correct.  Consider the "Orpheus in the Underworld" myth  as an alternative to Inanna in Egreshkigal's Court" example.  Orpheus in the myth is a living mortal in the underworld and what a man can do, a deity can do with bells on it. Many Greek heroes go to the underworld, in fact Hercules defeats Cerberus in the underworld, Odysseus goes there,  so does Theseus. 

Of course there is also the Norse version...

A journey by the hero Hadding from the History of the Danes (Gesta Danorum) by the medieval Danish historian Saxo Grammaticus features a description of a very similar notion of a subterranean underworld. Here summarised by Old Norse scholar E.O.G. Turville-Petre :

"While he was living with Ragnhild, Hadding had another mysterious experience. A woman appeared bearing some herbs. Wishing to know where such herbs grew in winter, Hadding went with this woman under the earth. They passed through mists, and then through sunny, fertile regions, where the herbs had grown. Then they came to a raging torrent, flowing with weapons. Crossing by a bridge, they came upon armies of fallen warriors, locked in eternal battle. As they pressed forward, a wall stood in their way; they could go no further, but the woman tore off the head of a cock, which she happened to have with her, and flung it over the wall. Immediately the cock came to life and crowed."

The chicken being thrown over the wall of the underworld (variously called Helgrindr, “The Fence of Hel,” Nágrindr, “Corpse-Fence,” or Valgrindr, “The Fence of the Fallen”) is worthy of particular note as it demonstrates a notion of threshold between life and death that others would later symbolize as "the veil of life and death".  On one side the chicken is dead, but cast to the other it is dead to death (-X-=+), and that means alive.  I am sure that any Jrusteli would have a field day playing with that one.

That is before we begin to look at any examples of other myth cycles.  Here is a link to the Wikipedia entry on underworlds that can serve as a jumping off point on the subject:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Underworld 

The conception of a subterranean world inhabited by the dead is surprisingly common in world mythology, even in cultures that practiced cremation or ritual dismemberment instead of burial or entombment, so the obvious link to burial is not so straight forward as one might think or hope.  The notion that the Journey to the Underworld is something that only a hero can accomplish remains a constant however.  It is in many ways the quintessential Hero Quest.

On 12/6/2016 at 7:25 AM, M Helsdon said:

The Lightbringers took their 'bodies' into the Underworld. So did Yelm:

Howling, he fled on the trail which Grandfather had taken, and hid in the Underworld.

Except that the EXACT example here compares Yelm's death to that of Grandfather mortal.  When Grandfather Mortal died, he left behind his body, and his spirit went to the underworld. Apparently Yelm's death copies this death by implication.  This is qualitatively very different to what the Lightbringers do.

As to the King of Sartar Lightbringer Quest, there is clearly a quantifiable difference between going through the gate the way the Lightbringers did and the way Grandfather Mortal and Yelm did.  Does it say that the Lightbringers then cut their wrists, lost their bodies and stepped beyond the Gate of Dusk?  No.  And here's the rub.  If the Lightbringers wanted to do that they could have killed each other at the start of the quest and saved themselves the journey to the edge of the world in favor of the shorter route.

So I would argue that the Lightbringer journey is more like that of Orpheus than that of Inanna.  Orpheus was physically present in the underworld.

I would also argue that what happens to Orlanth after the Fall of Whitewall is the style of death that Yelm suffered that ushered in the Lesser Darkness. Not a  mere entering of the underworld, but an actual separation of spirit from body.

Clearly there is something very qualitatively different between the alleged "death" of Orlanth during the Lightbringer Quest and what happens to him after the Fall of Whitewall.  During the former Orlanth's Ring dips below the horizon.  During the latter it doesn't rise again, and the result is a bit like the Lesser Darkness, in that the world is very altered.  I argue that is because journeying into the underworld is not ipso facto, death.  Clearly Rausa did not entirely understand the process as she had not gone beyond the Gate and come back, while Trickster had, so Rausa makes the mistake of thinking that those who pass the gate are dead, but Trickster knows better for he not only died but came back on his own steam and brought death back with him for a bit of a joke.

On 12/6/2016 at 7:25 AM, M Helsdon said:

The Lightbringers took their 'bodies' into the Underworld. So did Yelm:

Howling, he fled on the trail which Grandfather had taken, and hid in the Underworld.

I refer you to King of Sartar, the Lightbringers' Quest:

Aklor, the son of Luath and Jeleka, was the Luathan leader. Aklor escorted Orlanth and his companions across their beautiful, but shadowed land to the magnificent, vacant palace of their ruler. This was Rausa, goddess of the Western Gates. She hated Orlanth because he had killed her father, Yelm, and banished him to remain forever below her own Western Gates. Rausa had been the last to see him in the world of the living. She hated Orlanth so much that she smeared herself with her father’s crimson blood to remind herself to take revenge. She hated Orlanth so much that, whenever she had the strength, she armed and rose up from the horizon to look for him. She wished to send Orlanth to her father’s fate, and then lock the Gate of the West behind him. Now, at last, he was here, in her palace.

However, she also feared Orlanth and what he could probably do to her, her people, and to her palace if he unleashed all his powers. She knew it would be difficult to kill him if he was alone, and he was not. He would be hard to kill if he was unarmed, which he was not. He would be hard to trick, too, since he was so well advised.

So Princess Rausa asked him what he wanted here, in her house. And Orlanth spoke simply.

“I wish to travel beyond your home,” he said, “and through the Gate of the West, and have them locked behind me.”

And the goddess was so happy that her wish had come true that she did not ask what his business there was, or with what intent he entered into this, or what end he hoped to accomplish. She collected the fee for going to the Underworld, then ordered the gate keepers, Vamth and Rhylor, to wrench the great doors open, and to lock them again when the travelers went through.

So for the gods to enter the Underworld was to die. And later:

This agreement between the gods is called the Cosmic Compromise. All of the deities agreed to share the world with each other, and with all of the experiences which they had already had. No one was allowed to avoid what they did not like, and so all of the gods agreed that they would share their time among both Life and Death. They agreed to these things, and that they would not actively intervene in each other’s realms except in those ways which they had already done. They would not individually or consciously alter the world. They would not even turn their awareness to it, unless called upon to do so.

Yelm died when Orlanth used Death to slay him; Orlanth died when he entered the Underworld.

Both were released from the Underworld, part of the time, when they agreed the Great Compromise.

When Orlanth dies 'permanently' after the Fall of Whitewall there are major ramifications because he (and Ernalda) are trapped in the Underworld. This brings on the Great Winter in Dragon Pass. The details are part of the campaign of The Eleven Lights. When the Lunars kill Orlanth the Great Compromise is damaged, which has ongoing implications.

No, that is not how it works, in Glorantha, or terrestrial mythologies.

For example in the story Inanna's Descent to the Underworld, the goddess is only freed from death in the Underworld when she sends her lover Dumuzi there in her place. The template of the dying and resurrecting god, of which Dumuzi is the earliest example we know of, has continued throughout history in the Near East.

On 12/3/2016 at 1:56 AM, M Helsdon said:

AD&D is a game; Glorantha is a world, based very definitely upon the rules of mythology you will encounter in numerous terrestrial mythologies, especially those of Ancient Greece, the Near East, and others. It isn't a matter of canon but of how the world is set out. You are welcome to play in your version of Glorantha, but don't confuse it with the canon of Glorantha.

And who determines the canon?  You?  Greg Stafford himself has said he didn't like the idea of getting stuck in a canon.  Are you preserving or ossifying and killing a legacy?

Regarding Tunoral the Raccoon god and Vanchites being thieves you said...

On 12/3/2016 at 1:56 AM, M Helsdon said:

Sigh. No, that's how others perceive them, not how they perceive themselves.

No, the worshippers of Tunoral are no doubt proud of their successful thieving and outsiders are quite correct in thinking that Vanch as a culture with a thieving raccoon as a major local god, are thieves.  Is everyone in Vanch a Tunoral cultist?  No.  But the attitudes of Tunoral affect the way they think and act in different situations in the same way religious mythology permeates most cultural attitudes.  Therefore ALL Vanchites will be more likely to steal, because respecting private property isn't something they are trained to do, in fact they are trained not to, because that is how their god and their ancestors survived Before Time.  

On 12/3/2016 at 1:56 AM, M Helsdon said:

They died by entering the Gate to the Underworld, and were Dead until the Great Compromise changed the rules of a damaged and dying cosmos. Anyone who enters the Underworld is Dead, unless they can get out.

I suspect there's a fundamental issue you are missing: Death doesn't mean inactive, decaying, but is a different state of being in Glorantha.

The Underworld isn't the destination of all who die: being eaten by a Chaos monster like the Crimson Bat expunges you from reality; the Brithini fear Death because they have no afterlife - the spark of life goes (somewhere) but individual identity vanishes. Not all of the dead stay in the Underworld or even go there. The Underworld only became the level of the Dead when Death was found hidden there and released into the world.

I disagree.  Death is the separation of body and spirit... hence the Sever Spirit spell.  If the body has not been separated from the spirit, then death has not occurred.  Similarly, resurrection spells re-establish that connection. What is true for humans is true for gods; as above, so below.  

At what point in the Lightbringer Quest does it say that the seven give up their material bodies upon entering the Gate of Dusk?  By way of comparison, Yelm died when Orlanth used death on him.

Where unity of body and spirit persists, life persists, even in the land of the dead.  If that unity does not persist, then the underworld claims you.  The underworld has not claimed you before the point that your body and spirit are separated.

22 hours ago, M Helsdon said:

Sigh. The people of Vanch are on the borders of two distinct cultures with very different value systems. That border has moved over them in one direction or the other throughout Time. It's a little like the historical friction between the Irish and 'Vikings' - both peoples had honour based cultures, but their concept of honour differed significantly, to such a degree that each considered the other to be lacking in honour, with inevitable results.

As it turns out, no.  The Vanchites are raccoon worshiping thieves.  Thanks Jajagapa.

22 hours ago, M Helsdon said:

There's an entire cult write-up in the Pavis boxed set. As that states, many gods of Sartar and Prax have thieving abilities, and Gods of Glorantha names a few thief cults (though not Lanbril).

In terms of the mythology of Lanbril these are a thumbnail sketch at best.  So in truth, nobody knows.

22 hours ago, M Helsdon said:

If they don't get out of the Underworld, they stay there as one of the dead.

And yet they also don't stay there, because they aren't dead.  How did they die?  Were they ritually murdered as part of the HQ? No. Just being in the land of the dead doesn't make you dead, any more than going to a cemetery makes you dead (unless there is a cholera epidemic or some such).  This is not shamanic self resurrection hit point by hit point, this is giving Diros the boatman 2 obolos for the entry fee and a sprig of mistletoe as payment in advance for the return journey.   Conversely, if you die in the Underworld, you don't suddenly spring back to life in the land of the living.

22 hours ago, M Helsdon said:

Trolls left the Underworld when the dead Sun arrived. They are no longer 'denizens of the underworld' when alive, but most go there when they die (to a region set aside where the Sun doesn't shine), or are reincarnated, or are sent to the Sky Realm if they are judged to be evil - their 'hell' is the Sky cults' 'heaven'.

The point is that Trolls were an underworld LIFE form.

22 hours ago, M Helsdon said:

Graves and tombs are not in the Underworld. The Halls of the Dead are. Any deity in the Underworld is dead, at least part of the Time, even when they leave.

In terrestrial mythology, numerous deities, often agricultural, are accounted dead in the myths part of the time. For example, Persephone, or the older Dumuzi, who was sacrificed by Inanna/Ishtar to be dead at least part of the time as her own 'get out of the Underworld' card. Death doesn't mean in those mythologies that the deity is literally dead and inactive, forever, because they can be active even when dead.

In Gloranthan mythology, finding how to distinguish between the Living and Dead, and to separate them to inhabit their proper places is a widespread activity of ancient heroes and gods, and in some locations, the Dead are still a bit peeved at this and sometimes get out and about, if the proper rituals aren't observed. For that matter, in Glorantha Life and Death aren't the only axis, because there's the third state of Undeath which covers creatures like vampires and ghouls who are Dead but active in the realm of the Living.

Everywhere in Glorantha is potentially dangerous. The Underworld has its own dangers; it is also dangerous to non-residents because although you may get in, you may not get out.

The point for me is that when someone dies within Glorantha, their SPIRIT goes to the underworld, their body just gets buried.  Now when heroes go to the underworld, they go there physically, not as mere spirits.  Shamans of course are the exception, as they separate from their bodies.  It is an alternative HQ strategy.  Trolls were alive in the underworld and had bodies there, and those bodies came to the world above intact.  That is why they are alive and not a plague of ghosts.  Now this is not to say that a living bodied human in the underworld cannot die there, it is a dangerous place after all.  Now what is true for a human hero is more true for a deity.  When Orlanth goes Lightbringing into the underworld he is the living breath of Glorantha, and if things go badly he might not be.

22 hours ago, M Helsdon said:

There are times when it is normal for Orlanth's Ring not to be in the Sky. It has a fourteen day cycle, being in the Sky for seven of those days.

And when that 14 day cycle is broken because Orlanth is actually dead as a result of the fall of Whitewall, then Orlanth is actually dead, not otherwise.  The Lightbringers went into the underworld as living gods, they were living gods IN the underworld, and they left the underworld alive too.  Yelm by comparison was destroyed in the living world and had no living body to return to the living world in until after the Lightbringer Quest resurrected him. The Yelm in the underworld is like a ghost, albeit the ghost of a god, but clearly unable to renew the connection to the world of the living on his own for want of the divine equivalent of a working body. As above, so below.

On 11/30/2016 at 6:30 AM, M Helsdon said:

It is up to individual GMs to decide, but this is a public forum. Of all the Mongoose books, Dara Happa Stirs is the best and closest to canon. The others vary enormously in quality.

The penalty for using Mongoose books as canonical here is a trip to Dorastor with one of Ralzakark's avatars as your host...

I remember well when Gary Gygax, fueled perhaps by cocaine addiction, went all-out to try to make AD&D canonical.  I was a teenager at the time and the ridiculous authoritarianism of it was one of the things that turned me off AD&D.  Are we REALLY going down THAT road guys?  I mean, shame on you.  Greg Stafford has said that he himself is not the final authority on Glorantha, and there are occasions when he has contradicted himself, often I suspect on purpose, to short circuit exactly that sort of nonsense. You aren't doing Greg or Glorantha many favors.

On the other hand, I am pleased to know that the Vanchites ARE thieves because of their local Raccoon god Tunoral.  Thanks for the info Jajagappa.  I wonder if that is the same Raccoon deity the God Learners used to torment on HQs?  Seems a bit far north and central for them I guess.  As the saying goes, any deity called Mr. Raccoon deserves what he gets.

15 hours ago, Byll said:

Powers: Giant's tear is never cold to the touch. Sun Hawk shamans use it to enhance their ceremonial magic. Giant's Tears can not be used a crystals for POW / spirit storage

So HOW do Sun Hawk shamans use them to enhance their ceremonial magic?  Inquiring minds want to know the details!

14 hours ago, jajagappa said:

I would say no novels.  They really don't exist in our world until 18th cen. and don't seem to be a style that would fit a Bronze Age world.

I think it is pretty obvious that, as M Heldson says, Apuleius was before the Tale of Genji, and I don't know why his comedic story "Metamorphosis", (obviously read for pleasure, which is how I define a novel), isn't considered a novel, and which Lit Crit panjandrum decided the point and gave it to Murasaki Shikibu.  Also, aren't we forgetting the God Learner Empire?  The first novels in English, Spanish and French all appear around the early imperial period, and the Jrusteli Empire went a long way past that in terms of knowledge, magic and technology.  That being said, we don't know much about Jrusteli written culture, and the notion of reading for pleasure might have eluded them.  Perhaps an obscure Vormaini court lady has already written the first novel in Glorantha in the First Age?  Or perhaps none of the literature has survived?  Simply put, we just don't know...  And as you say jajagappa, maybe it has yet to be?  Also I think it is fair to say that some parts of Glorantha are a lot more bronze age (a la Earth's bronze age) than others.

On 12/1/2016 at 7:20 AM, scott-martin said:

Many core Gloranthan cultures acknowledge that not all dreams are authentic otherworld contacts so by analogy secular "fiction" is theoretically possible.

I think I agree with scott-martin, and the point is well made.  To be certain, many Gloranthan societies will not have novels, and where novels do exist they will be a luxury of a literate elite. 

Just now, M Helsdon said:

(1) No, I am saying why they are pragmatic.

(2) The Lanbril 'cult' is not a unified cult. Lanbril is one of several thief gods.

(3) No, I referred to gods not native to the Underworld. If you are not native to the Underworld and go there, you are effectively dead, unless you can get out.

(4) They managed to get in, but getting out was far more difficult. They were in the Halls of the Dead - which means they were dead themselves.

(5) They are dead unless they can find a way out. Some Heroes get in and out of the Underworld several times, but if they fail once, they remain dead.

(6) After the fall of Whitewall, Orlanth was trapped in the Underworld: his stars did not follow their cycle.

(7) Neither Orlanth nor Yelmalio died at the Hill of Gold.

(8) You need to read The Guide to Glorantha, not MRQ supplements.

(1) Many people are mercenaries in Glorantha, many are pragmatic, but few have a reputation as thieves.

(2) In truth we have precious little backstory on Lanbril, or Vanch for that matter.  Lanbril has to come from somewhere, so why not Vanch?  I hear there is a whole hill of gold.

(3) That isn't even true of mortal hero questers like Sir Ethilrist, much less for deities.  Also, where do trolls go when they die if what you say is true?  As denizens of the underworld according to your logic they cannot die.

(4) So when you visit a grave are you dead?  When you keep a graveyard are you dead?  When you raid a tomb are you dead?  A deity can visit the halls of the dead without dying, much like a human can visit the Valley of the Kings without dying.  Not to say that either is without potential risks.

(5) Yes.  But they are not dead BECAUSE they are in the underworld, they are in danger because the underworld is potentially dangerous.

(6) True.  And relevant.  If Orlanth's Ring only drops out of its cycle when Orlanth is dead, then obviously Orlanth wasn't dead at other times.

(7) True.  But there were clear winners and losers.  Yelmalio lost his fire powers because he keeps losing at the Hill of Gold.  The real winner IMO was Zorak Zoran.

(8) Man cannot live by canon alone. YGMV.

Just now, M Helsdon said:

The more likely answer is that Vanch is a mixture of Sun and Storm cultures, and those two cultures have very different attitudes to hierarchy and honour.  Sun-worshippers consider Orlanthi to be rebels and thieves, because raiding is integral to their culture, whilst Storm-worshippers consider Sun-worshippers to be ruled by those who take but rarely bestow their wealth to their followers. (The two cultures have very different views, for example, on dividing up plunder in war - the Orlanthi have a relatively fair method of dividing spoil, whilst with Sun-worshippers the leader can take the lot, and only has to give out what they want to give out). Mix and merge those two traditions, and you end up with cultural practices which probably seem wrong to surrounding regions that are fully one or the other.

You are utterly ignoring the part where it says that the Vanchites are MERCENARY and PRAGMATIC, and worship any god they think will aid them.  These are not very honorable people, they sell out their principles to the highest bidder.  No doubt thievery is merely a manifestation of that mercenary pragmatism.  We don't know what the agriculture and trade is like in Vanch, but the suggestion is "not great", as poverty is a good reason for thieving to start.  Vanch may well be the home of the Lanbril cult, as Lanbril myths do mention contact with the Solar cults, and it has to start somewhere. The fact is that Storm and Sun cults manage to exist elsewhere without resorting to calling each other thieves over division of spoils etc, PLUS there is the issue that it isn't one group or the other who have the reputation, but ALL Vanchites, Storm, Solar Lunar whatever... they all have the reputation.  Non-Vanchites think Vanchites are thieves, not because of their cults and their practices, but because many Vanchites steal things, probably even from their supposed allies, when the opportunity presents itself.  THAT is how you get a reputation as thieves.

11 minutes ago, M Helsdon said:

All the Lightbringers went to the Underworld, which is the equivalent of death for those not native to the Underworld. The Sun Emperor was there because he was killed by Orlanth wielding Death. Many deities died, meaning that they are not permanently 'alive' which is why the Sun sets every day to spend time in the Underworld before rising to life again. Orlanth's Ring of stars rises in the sky and falls. There's a distinction between deities who never died, those who died, those who stayed dead - often because their parts were dismembered - and those that were utterly destroyed and can never come back.

So what you are saying is that all trolls are undead because they come from the underworld and if you are in the underworld you are dead by definition? Immortals can enter and leave the underworld as they please if they know the way, and are only forced to go there if they actually die.  The Lightbringers didn't die, they physically entered the underworld voluntarily under their own power as deities.  Nobody killed them.  When Sir Ethilrist or any other hero quester go into the underworld, they aren't dead unless they get killed.  Now Orlanth will get into dire trouble after the capture of Whitewall, but not on the Hill of Gold.

12 hours ago, M Helsdon said:

It says: Fairly or unfairly, the Vanchites have a reputation as thieves.

If people have a reputation as thieves it is inevitably a well founded accusation.  They may not ALL be thieves but thievery will be a well established cultural practice.  You see, many people may throw around an accusation against their neighbors, but when it sticks, it is likely to be substantially true.  The Sartarites and Praxians raid for livestock, but they don't get called thieves for doing so, despite the fact it is definitely a form of thievery.  Why not?  Because it is within culturally acceptable and understood definitions.  Apparently the Vanchites have annoyed enough people over the centuries to gain a reputation, and travelers would be well advised to listen.

5 hours ago, jajagappa said:

Yes, but... Yelmalio lived.  Orlanth died.  Most of the other gods died.  Even much of chaos died.  Yelmalio lived.  And the Hill of Gold was where he survived.  It is the place of the Last Light that survived in the world.  That is why it is a solar holy site.  Not an Orlanthi holy site. 

ORLY?  Orlanth died?  So, that whole Lightbringer Quest... Never happened?  Yelm is still in Hell too apparently. What about Zorak Zoran?  Did he die too?  That means that Kajabor is still out there and the Great Compromise never happened.  Silly Sun worshipers. 

12 minutes ago, David Scott said:

I'm intrigued as to the source of this. Is this both cultures? What's a lot - more than the norm?

The source is page 339 of the Guide to Glorantha.  It says that Vanchites are mercenary and pragmatic people who worship any god who can aid them, and that they have a reputation as thieves.  Think about it.  If your neighbors aren't of the same pantheon as you, why wouldn't you steal, and why wouldn't they steal things back?  It becomes a local sport that annoys non-competitors.

22 minutes ago, David Scott said:

Why? It's a Solar holy place. The conflict is part of an established myth. That doesn't mean the quest conflict transfers the day to day lives of the population.

LOL! A "Solar" holy place?  Most humorous.  The Hill of Gold is where Orlanth kicks the tar out of Yelmalio, then Zorak Zoran drinks his blood and gains his fire powers.  Given it is a place where gods of Storm and Darkness regularly come to ritually humiliate and whallop Yelmalio into submission, it is a funny thing to say that it is solar.  On the other hand it is a very Yelmalio local community, all as dedicated as football fans of a team that never wins.  Perhaps it is a solar holy place, given that the "gold" of the Hill of Gold is the copious flow of Yelmalio's blood?  A sad, humiliating commemoration of a defeat that is repeated over and over again.  

We know a fair bit about the history of Glorantha, but it is all religious and military history, which is unsurprising, as it is a troubled history.  On the other hand, we also know that there are a great many books and scrolls out there too.  What is hard to find is whether "the novel" as a concept has been invented yet.  Is "the novel" even possible in Glorantha, given the mythic nature of the place?  I mean, if you go around making stuff up what happens to the myths?  Is the novel the work of Tricksters perhaps? Or some sort of Thanatari junk food ?  So the question is this... What do literate Gloranthans read?  

We know for example that Fazzur was Wide-Read, so what did he read?  Who are the heroes of civilization, the great writers, scholars, historians, philosophers, artists, and playwrights of the civilizations that have existed? We need to know before the reign of Harshax descends.

We do know a few titles, but what would a Genertelan Library have on its shelves?  Loads of reports from scholars?  If so, which are the ones considered seminal works?  Who are the big names?  What is canon literature to a Gloranthan Scholar?  Once we have a list of the texts we know from the source material, perhaps we can invent some others? 

I propose the following title headings:

Name of Text: (e.g. The Light of Action)

Author: (when possible)

Year:  (when it was first written, if that is known, otherwise, what decade, century, or age)

Documentary Source: (e.g. one of the publications it appears in, perhaps with a page reference)

Subject of Text: (e.g. for the Light of Action, it would be military science)

Known Quotes: (If you can be bothered)

There those headings are so you can cut/paste them if you want...

Name of Text: 

Author: 

Year:

Documentary Source: 

Subject of Text: 

Known Quotes:

It makes you wonder what the headgear originally meant. There are so many possibilities.  

23 hours ago, Iskallor said:

Very true. But I find it hard when the stuff is so awful. I like working from canon first myself and listening to all of you lots non canonical ideas, which are far better.

Yes, because everything in and about GSA is just "awful".   The very notion that someone could take a formative period in Gloranthan history when there were empires able to reach, trade with and even conquer all the distant parts of Glorantha is just an "awful" idea.  Personally I think it is brave that anyone was prepared to actually write up such a dauntingly large concept.  If it isn't all gold, so what?  Also, it provides great ideas for 3rd age ruins and treasures.  If it breaches canon it does so only occasionally, and on points that can be glossed over.  Nothing GS hasn't done in the past.  If you want bad supplements, look at Griffin Island and the Lost City of Eldarad (Pavis Lite, just one calorie, not Pavis enough).

4 hours ago, Jon Hunter said:

Any hints at key differences apart from obvious lack of lunars ?

Well they are a mix of Orlanthi and Pelorian cultures living tooth and jowl.  They also steal a lot.  There are a reasonable number of Mostali in the area too in the Jord Mts and Noalastor.  The Hill of Gold is there which should demonstrate the tensions between the Orlanthi and Yelmalios pretty well, and New Lolon (which is a major Yelmalio settlement since the Dawn).  Odds on that the Hero Balazar came from there.  Of course Ithmer also has a good proportion of Yelmalios. There is a tribe called the Blue Deer.  The local dynasty is the  Bison Kings who have been there since the battle of Argentium Thri'ile in the Second Age when the EWF used them as mercenaries and trashed the local horse riders.

Looking over Griffin Mountain's History of Balazar (pages 6-7) it actually supports the GSA entry, with the small addition of the name of the 8th Century who returned with the booty being Hargaard Silverfist and no mention of the Greatway Mostali.

Personally I think the idea of the region having occasional old ruins from the EWF is a good idea.  The EWF definitely had a substantial influence on the region prior to the rebellion.

I had a nice optional rule for this.  Modify your hit location roll by +/-1 for every 10% penalty you are willing to accrue to your parry or dodge, as you are leaving yourself open by choosing location.  

As a technique the half sword is shortened, reducing speed, providing extra leverage and the use of the point, so, worsen the strike rank, bump the DB up one notch and make the weapon have an impale chance rather than a cutting effect.