Darius West

22 hours ago, JonL said:

Per the Guide, "Among the New Hrestoli, women enjoy the same status as men, and have risen to the highest offices in Loskalm." rather than being shut-out like they are in Seshnela or among the Brithini. The illustration for the of the "Man" of All is even a female. Apart from YGMV though (I liked The Book of Glorious Joy even if it's vision for Loksalm is deprecated), that might make for a slick idea to use on the Castle Coast.

I am sure I read that Loskalmi women rise to the status of their husband without having to meet the caste restrictions.  So they rise to the highest offices not by merit but by prostituting themselves into a good marriage and by the advantageous deaths of their husbands.  This was a corrosive social problem in Sparta and most warrior societies.  It isn't like a woman is restricted in her caste the way a man is.  She doesn't have to start a peasant and work her way up the way a man does, she just has to marry well. Essentially women just need to choose a wealthy host to parasitize. Loskalm is a paradise for ambitious scheming women who can turn on the waterworks while caring for the ailing husband they are poisoning. Male advancement is quite difficult by comparison.  It isn't as if noble girls of Loskalm become peasants as of turning 15 like the boys, and have to work their way up the ladder like boys, and can only marry within the class to which they have risen.  Basically, Loskalm has a Hrestolic Church that rewards men for being good and women for being evil.

Thanks for that David Scott, I have misplaced my copy of Strangers in Prax atm.

On 11/11/2016 at 6:49 AM, Mark Mohrfield said:

This is getting a little OT, but HeroQuest can be every bit as gritty as RuneQuest, it just depends on how the GM applies the credibility test. Likewise, Runequest can be quite superheroic (people hurling lightning bolts and sunspears). Any rules system is a lens through which Glorantha is perceived; neither is any more correct than the other in defining how the inhabitants actually live. 

My essential problem with HQ is the XP system.  It provides too much skill advancement too quickly for players, which is fine if you are playing a superhero, but doesn't leave much room for most people who by the age of 25 may have a professional skill at 18 if they are lucky, another skill or two, maybe your cult affinity, at 15, a smattering at 10, and many more at 5.  HQ lets you stack into cult feats and primary weapon in a way that RQ never did, leading to top heavy characters who have "professional skills" as warriors that they can superimpose onto things via the use of making up silly mythic feats on the fly.  Want to boost your ability to spot things?  Use the "Orlanth Peeps Through the Giant's Keyhole feat at 5W2 and add X points to your Warrior skill, because being alert is a warrior skill.  Nothing says you can't take the "Jack of All Trades And Master of All Trades" skill at mastery as a beginning HQ character.  You actually have to nerf the system to make it workable.

Sure, I can't see why giant boot timber wouldn't have magical properties.  Baran the Monster Killer has a whole world of timber to choose from and he comes up the Zola Fel to get giant boot.  I would say that it is a super hard wearing, long lasting premium hardwood, and if giants use it for their cradles and their boots, the trees are both huge and have some ties to giants like Tada and Genert as well as the usual Aldryami. Perhaps the giant boot tree is the product of mating between Giants and Aldryami deities in the Green Age?

So, to recap... 

The cradle timber is a possibility, but a good deal of it would have been used in the building of old Pavis, which is now rubble. Dorasor would have snaffled the rest of it to build New Pavis.  Old timber is still recycled from the rubble.

Settlements like Sun Dome, Garhound and Indagos probably have a few plantation stands of usable timber that they guard closely.  These supply mainly local needs but timber does make its way to New Pavis too. The timber is likely transported by Lokarnos wagons because there aren't many credible alternatives.  In difficult times these plantations may be the only source of timber.

The Praxians probably harvest swamp cypress of the Zola Fel Bogs, or trees from the Stormwalk rainshadow or from Shadows Dance.  They also buy timber for their needs at markets.

It is possible that other settlements make use of swamp timber, but it is not enough and the risks of harvesting there are high.  Something a vicious tribe can do, but settlers should avoid without a military escort.  Plus, intense harvesting will quickly ruin the pitiful stands.

 Getting timber down from the Redwood forest in Shadows Dance is implausible because of the Leaping Place falls and the difficult political situation.  Heroes can do it, but it is a major undertaking and basically not for mere mortals, so heroes won't make it an industry because there are easier ways to make a living than the hard labor of bronze age lumberjacking.

Which leaves running regular Lokarnos wagons across Pavis with loads of timber under guard.  It is a twenty day trip to New Pavis from Herongreen on the Pavis Road.  There is a large Lokarnos temple in New Pavis to accommodate the trade.  Damaged wagons can be collapsed and kept on other wagons. The shipment will be well protected, and will probably attract fellow travellers such as Issaries and Etyries merchants who group together for security, peeling off towards other oasis markets along the way. There is ample reason for the Lunars to want to increase this shipment, as they have huge plans for the settlement of the Zola Fel, but most importantly they want to turn Corflu into a major trading and military port (LOL). New Pavis carpenters are no doubt used to the delays in supply and to pre-ordering what they need.  New Pavis carpenters will never be a large guild but they have an abnormal degree of influence due to the scarcity and necessity of their material.  Allied trades such as weapon making, furniture making, coopers and shipbuilding are all in the Carpenters' Guild orbit. There is a good chance that the carpenters will belong to either the Orstan cult (Carpenter God of the Orlanthi) or a sun cult for the political and professional connections.  It is unlikely that Orstevius worship has made its way to New Pavis.  The Lokarnos cult now has an established reason for its large temple to exist in New Pavis, and the problem of where all the timber comes from is solved.

On 11/2/2016 at 5:15 AM, JonL said:

Probably some, but not so many that the normal functioning of their society can't handle it. Lazy, disinterested, or disengaged? Well, you'll probably get shuffled around the worker sub-castes until your local noble finds something for you to do that you can at least tolerate and not screw up horribly, and they probably have some guidance-councilor magic to help find the best match possible. Power crazed isn't necessarily a problem, since there is an open path to earning power. There's probably some petty crime here and there, but with something close to full employment and general prosperity (in part thanks to community blessings) there's not much reason for crime to flourish. A man with a gambling problem might steal or embezzle to cover his debts, but you don't have hundreds of hungry dispossessed folk turning to street crime or banditry.

ROFL guidance councilor magic.  Why is that so funny?

I can see another problem.  A successful society still faces material limits, and even the most ambitious and meritorious person can only rise as far as there are vacancies.  There may be a thousand people who are qualified to be kings, but there will only ever be one king.  Similarly, when the prosperous peasants breed prolifically as they do, if the resource base of the kingdom isn't expanding then the excess population will be making do with less of everything.

If you are looking for what is wrong with Loskalm, and if you want to know where the corrosive element is, don't look to the caste system.  There are a group of people with their own agenda who operate almost completely unobserved, barely recognized by the hierarchy, completely outside the system of caste.  Worse still, the rules of Chivalry that says that this manipulative criminal class may not be interfered with in any way, and they will even find that it is easy to gain the assistance of warriors and knights if they play their cards right.  These vicious opportunists are the secret masters of Loskalm.  Their name?  Women.

When is my Xmas present coming?

Okay, time for an unpleasant question... 

We know that within Orlanthi culture a rapist is committing a chaotic act and in the process of turning into a broo, but there are a couple of times when the issue is more moot than that.

Firstly, the issue of thralls.  As thralls are property, they have no ability to give or refuse to give consent, but they are still human beings, so the rape of a thrall is a grey area.  Clearly the disparity in status is a major issue.

Secondly, rape as a result of a city falling to an enemy army has been a feature of warfare for as long as it has existed.  We know this happens in Glorantha too from documents like the Dispatch of Fadabius and King of Sartar.  Clearly this worship of Thed is acceptable to the chaos worshiping Lunars, who employ broos in their army, but what about for Sartarites and the non-chaotics?  Glorantha is an immensely female dominated society in many ways, but if there were no rapes taking place, would a goddess like Gorgorma exist ? It is fair to say that the Dara Happans are very paternalistic, and Gorgorma is part of their pantheon not the Orlanthi pantheon admittedly.  So what happens in Orlanthi culture when a girl is married off to a brutish and unsuitable husband who forces himself upon her, or is carried off by a "hero" who takes a fancy to her during a raid ?  These questions appear in the King of Dragon Pass game and obviously each clan may have a different answer, but the "all Orlanthi 85%" rule probably applies to this question.

In short, how do Orlanthi legally define rape and, more importantly when is it "not rape", and when (if ever) is rape acceptable or ignorable ?

7 hours ago, soltakss said:

I think that minor HeroQuests are performed far more often than people think. However, they only really affect the HeroQuestor or maybe his family. So, making a few trees in a fertile spot grow faster is possible, making a wood grow faster is difficult, making a forest grow faster is very rare.

Making trees grow faster is a function of the Aldryami deities.  Most humans, Orlanthi and Lunars included, aren't elf friends, but to be fair, the Yelmalions are.  I personally don't have a problem with the notion of the settlements around Pavis supplementing their fields with orchards and plantation stands of timber, except that given the absence of arable land in arid Prax, this would reduce their available land for crops, but would require irrigation just as crops do, hence I would suspect only the rich families like the Garhounds and Indagos etc would have the surplus land to accommodate trees, and would likely profit immensely from them.  On the other hand, I am sure that all the usual Bless Crops, Sunripen and Rain spells would work well to encourage growth.  With enough accelerate growth spells from Alrdya or Flamal you could get a harvestable tree in 4 years and a fully grown tree in 20 years, but that would add to the price of the timber considerably as such spells don't come cheaply.  You don't spend 2000L on a spell that will enchant a tree whose timber will not sell for 2000L.

This of course really begs the next question, which is, how much will the timber cost wholesale and retail in a Pavis market?

45 minutes ago, Iskallor said:

On earth maybe, but Glorantha isnt earth.

Glorantha is a lot like Earth.  Glorantha is however a LOW fantasy world, and why use references like existing species if they have no similarity to real world examples?   You want a Glorantha which is way more magical than it was ever meant to be.  You seem to think that Hero Quests are a daily occurrence and that more than a tiny percentage of the total population does them.  Most Gloranthans don't live in HeroQuest, they live in RuneQuest.  They understand the world through mythology, they have a couple of spells, but most magic is completely out of their grasp. They don't stack a keyword feat onto a multi-mastered skill and make impossible things happen on a daily basis.  If they want magical power they have to slowly and methodically work towards it.  HQ is a super hero RPG set in Glorantha.  You say Glorantha isn't Earth, but maybe it should be a bit more like the real world so that magic doesn't impoverish the game environment and the game experience ?  A believable world requires consistency, if everything is just answered with magic and magic has no limits, then you might as well say that the Vadeli used sorcery to mind control everyone in the whole world, there is no free will anymore, game over.  Face facts, the Vadeli have lived pretty well forever, they have mind control magics, so why haven't they mind controlled the whole sentient population of Glorantha?  The answer?  Magic has limits, and it SHOULD have limits.

5 minutes ago, David Scott said:

I'm not sure this is true. Mostali are hard at work repairing the World Machine, wood is certainly a good plant rune material. It can be transmuted into a petrified form, liquified to make special alchemical creations, burnt to produce other forms. I'm pretty sure wood is an essential although rare commodity. (1)

That's a very real world problem. Mostali sorcery and mundane techniques would eliminate this problem. They are lifting the land out of the ocean with a huge capstan, I'm sure water in a mine quarry really isn't a problem. Water spirits are easy to manage. (2)

1) I didn't rule out Mostali using wood.  I even mentioned Alchemically modified timber.  The real problem is the volume and burying it.

2) I have a feeling that the Mostali may be using more than one capstan and I am sure they are all very large.  As for keeping water out of the space, with the correct alchemical treatment, they might have even stored the timber in the bottom of one of the quarries and weighed it down with rock.

I am coming around to this idea, but there is a much better answer.

We know that when Robcradle was founded it was a time of high giant cradle volume, with one cradle arriving every 5-15 years.  This petered out a bit but didn't stop.  We also know that Pavis himself robbed cradles.  It is plausible that when the cradles were broken down, that the giant boot timber was stored.  There is no mention of where Dorasor got his building materials for New Pavis, and I had assumed that the timber was imported from Sartar, but perhaps a good portion of it came from stored cradle parts?

On 11/7/2016 at 7:10 AM, Tindalos said:

It's more that the bogs are unsuitable for widespread logging operations, being flooded completely 3 seasons out of five, full of bugs, and treacherous.

Doesn't mean you can't get wood from there though, and as hardwoods, and with skullbushes plentiful in the bogs, it'd be worth the insect bites to get what trees you can.

Of course, in Pavis itself, I'd be willing to bet the cult of Florian the Gardener helps out a lot, probably teaching Food Song from Pavis' connection to the elves, enabling for harvesting wood without necessarily angering the elves of the garden.

Of course it isn't just newtlings and mosquitoes who like swamps.  Chaos has a liking for swamps too; broos and dragon snails in particular. On the up side... no elves.  

Now as for flooding, and cutting trees, it can be done, but it is wasteful as you can't cut close to the base of the trunk, unless you can breathe underwater and are okay with chipping rather than felling trees with axes.  Once the log is in the water and floating, the water will actually help with its transport as it becomes a defacto raft.

I have looked into Cypress swamps in some detail now.  The Zola Fel has about 25,000 hectares of bog, which contains cypress trees, .  Cypress is adequately strong for weapons and just fine for building timber and other hardwood uses such as furniture etc.  Cypresses, especially swamp cypresses grow reasonably quickly which is good news (they apparently produce "false rings" which throw out the usual dendrochronology methods if one is unaware).  They reach maximum growth of about 40-50m after 200 years and can live 1000 years.  The bad news is that while most forests produce between 12,300-15,000kg of wood per hectare, cypress swamps produce only 700kg or so per hectare,  Given ongoing demand, the settlements of the Zola Fel would strip the bogs quite quickly.  Otherwise this would be plausible.

To be completely fair, I am sure that Aldryami will "police" rogue trees, but they would always kill them using food song, obviously.  Given how small the Garden is, I doubt they would be eager to give up any timber, given that their forest is their territory, and the trolls like eating wood.  A situation of Aldryami wood trade might have been possible when the city was whole, but not in the Big Rubble period.

As for just burying the wood, that is a lot of work.  I suppose it could have been placed in workings within one of the quarries, but unless kept dry timber rots, and removing water is an ongoing problem for all mine works, even in a dwarf quarry.  So yes, Mostali alchemical wood preservation techniques would have to be employed.  On the other hand, the sheer volume of the timber necessary would be prohibitive to bury, even for Mostali.  It would have to be a damn big hole, perhaps enough to bury a giant cradle, and that is a conservative estimate.

17 hours ago, Mark Mohrfield said:

Maybe it's all part of the deal the Mostali and Aldryami made with Pavis in the first place. The fertility magic that keeps the Garden alive will fail if the Aldryami fail their part of the bargain (1). Likewise something nasty would happen to the Mostai if they fail to preserve it and to provide it for use by the city (2). They may have stored it underground (3).

There doesn't seem to be any history of warfare between the Pavis Mostali and Aldryami, indicating that they at least tolerate each other(4).

As for the non-Pavis settlements, perhaps they use different, non-wood intensive, architecture? (5)

(1)  Elves don't surrender trees, other than the ones that die of old age, willingly.  Pavis would know and respect that because he was part elf.  The notion of having his kin's forest die for not completing a deal with the Mostali, even the Flintnails seems unlikely.

(2) Mostali don't have a hell of a lot of use for wood.  That is sort of why the stockpile would exist.  As for what they would trade if such an arrangement existed?  Probably copper  from the copper caves near Dwarf Knoll in Prax, which the Flintnails have close connection to.

(3) Yes, I assumed they would store it underground. That in itself is not an answer. Where in the Big Rubble is safe enough that it wouldn't have been stolen?

(4) In fact the Flintnails and the Aldryami in the Garden have nearly nothing to do with each other.  The are both threatened by the Trolls, so they have at least that much in common. The Garden Aldryami are incredibly isolationist; that we do know.

(5) I have assumed that New Pavis has been built using either mud brick, wattle and daub, cob, rammed earth or some combination of the above, based on the architectural style of the city from the illustrations.  The primary building materials are dried reeds and mud.  The PROBLEM is that ALL these methods still require a lot of timber in all the major supports, AND the creation of second story flooring AND in much of the construction method.  You can build a mud building with 2 storys, but you get something that looks like Mos Eisley not Pavis, with huge arched support columns to support the second story.  Wood is intrinsic to the construction style for Pavic architecture based on real world examples.  If you own River of Cradles, have a look at the illustrations and you will see what I mean.  If the answer was easy, I think we might have reached it already.

I got the link and I love it!  It looks great.

On 5/30/2016 at 1:50 AM, pachristian said:

i think the cosmic truth is that if it is possible to make money off it, people will find a way to do it.

Especially in "A Town Like Pavis".

On 11/8/2016 at 9:08 AM, David Scott said:

Remember that the Zola Fel is the birth canal of the Rockwood Giants. The mountains and river are intrinsically linked. I suspect that from Boathouse Ruins to Leaping Place Fall is the Gestation time, Launching over the falls into the "hands" of Zola Fel is the journey down the birth canal, while the mouth of Zola Fel finally births the baby Giant into the World.

So when a "log" appears in the birth canal is that considered to be a "mythic fistula" ?

VOMIT WARNING!: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Obstetric_fistula 

...known in medieval times as a "sootikin" and completely misunderstood by commentators of the time.  Perchance the River God will form these logs into the likeness of giant mice in accordance with folkloric sources? 

On 11/8/2016 at 6:15 AM, Mark Mohrfield said:

Here's a thought: maybe Pavis had a agreement with the elves of the garden to provide a certain small amount of timber each year. This was delivered to the Mostali, as they were the architects. After the fall of Pavis, with typical elder race obdurance, they just kept on delivering it the Mostali, who having nothing to do with it just kept it preserved, preventing rot by Mostali magic. When Dorasor showed up there was loads of the stuff around.

Well, this stockpile would need a location, and the Mostali would need a compelling reason to provide their resource stockpile to Dorasor.  Next... elves and dwarves living together in sin?  Mass hysteria! That sort of arrangement might have worked while Pavis was a whole city, but I get the feeling that the Garden and the Flintnails don't love each other, so it seems a little unlikely that the harmony of the good old days will be enough.  Also, what did the elves get out of the trade?  Perhaps copper? Where would this increasingly large stockpile have been kept without being raided and carried off btw?  The Rubble is a bad place, and timber is valuable.  This also doesn't really account for New Pavis and the various settlements around it and their ongoing timber requirements.  It certainly isn't an entirely bad idea, I just don't think you can have enough timber to construct a city sitting in storage in the Big Rubble for very long.  It seems implausible to me.  There certainly could have been some sort of Flintnail timber stockpile, but nowhere near as much as is suggested; too many interested parties with sticky fingers.  

20 hours ago, David Scott said:

I'm unaware of this, what's the source please.

It is from Glorantha: The Second Age: Pavis Rises.  Pavis, for reasons best known to himself uses the connection of the Puzzle Canal to temporarily hide a cradle, ostensibly to protect it from the Malkioni with the connivance of Labygyron, who also hides the EWF banner within the  cradle in the hidden construction of the canals.  On the other hand it does say on page 7 of Pavis Common Knowledge that Pavis devised traps for cradles.  There are other inconsistencies with Pavis Rises, so I consider Pavis Common Knowledge to be a more reliable source. 

1 hour ago, David Scott said:

 What Malkioni?

Remember Arlaten's Tower from Strangers in Prax ?  According to Glorantha: The Second Age Pavis Rises, the Malkioni had various settlements within Pavis, including a presence on what is now Ogre Island where the Great Basher was erected for cradle snatching.  The notion being that cosmopolitainism was a feature of ancient Pavis too, with various denominations of Malkioni having a place there, with even an area devoted to the new Carmanian Empire.  He even allows Jrusteli refugees, including an handful of Zistorites.  I don't hate the idea.  Old Pavis back in the day was supposed to be an amazing place, and diversity can easily account for a large part of that amazingness under a harmony rune.

That was a very good summary.  Thank you for that David.  As I am running a Pavis based campaign atm this is all very valuable to me.  I do have a couple of questions coming out of what you have written, and a couple a bit more out of left field.

1) I know Pavis hides a cradle in the Puzzle Canal to stop the Malkioni from grabbing it.  Did the giants see this as a theft?  Were they not aware of what had happened?  Is this whole sequence of events part of what you mean by the cradle snatching still being a problem?  

2) Did the Arrowsmiths raising the Zebra Tribe damage their alliance with the PHP?  I would have thought that the PHP/Pavic alliance would have been effective in resisting the Praxians, given the apparent inability of Praxians to raid Dragon Pass due to the PHP.  Or were the PHP still effectively keeping their treaty with Waha, and deserted their alliance with Pavis?  I suppose what I am asking, is, given what a nuisance the PHP were, how come Jaldon didn't drive them off BEFORE going after Pavis?  The Battle of Alvan Argay happens hundreds of years later, after all.  I suspect that the PHP tried to intervene with the EWF armies that came to relieve Jaldon's siege, but I can find no mention of this.

3) What did the Praxians perceive was the Pavisite breach of the Peace of Paragua exactly ?  I mean, from what I am aware, there were tribes who did graze within the walls of Pavis, and not just the Zebras.  Did something change?

4) Are you aware of the "Eye of Wakboth" conspiracy theory by Michael  Raaterova published in Questlines 2 ? The notion that the Waggoth power in the Devil's Playground is the real cause for the city, and its downfall (with lots of evil machinations from the EWF, God Learners, and Flintnail cult implied) ? Do you give any weight to the notion that the Stormbulls were mighty offended by the alleged use of chaotic waggoth mercenaries coming out of Pavis, and that is what allowed Jaldon to unite the tribes?

5)  To what do you attribute Jaldon's tooth magic?  It has been suggested that it is actually boggle magic, as boggles can eat anything, (and hence can be said to be trickster related).  

As for there being charismatic Raider Khans... err... isn't it just the same guy who keeps coming back?

I laughed quite a lot at the notion of the Thanatari intervening.  The notion of a Lunar opportunist watching in horror as a Thanatari goes all "Red Dragon" on his precious ancient tome is some fine black comedy.  Thanks for the mental image Evilroddy

46 minutes ago, jajagappa said:

Which is a valid point as the Cradle clearly goes over the Leaping Place Falls.  How?  Perhaps it's the Hand of Zola Fel?

Of course, you'd probably need a quest (or ritual propitiation based on some prior quest) to establish Zola Fel's support.

I get the feeling that the Giants use some pretty major magic to get the cradles going.  Also, I doubt there are many God Learners around who are prepared to perform the same Hero Quest every week to maintain the city of New Pavis' timber industry when it is more feasible to haul the timber along the Pavis Road by wagon at a fraction of the cost and none of the magical investiture. 

A question has been preying on my mind of late.  What motivated Jaldon (Many tooth related sword names)'s fanatical devotion to the destruction of Pavis?  I mean Pavis was a hard and well defended target, and the city had done a lot to foster peace in the region.  I would have thought that Pavis' intentions regarding a re-creation of the Green Age of peace, harmony and prosperity would have appealed to pretty much everyone in Prax.  Praxians definitely benefited from the trade that the city provided too.  Was it entirely to do with revenge for Pavis' alliance with the Pure Horse folk?  Because it would seem that the Pure Horse folk were an easier target than Pavis, but Pavis gets destroyed in 940 while the Pure Horse are not driven from Prax until 1250 at the Battle of Alvan Argay. 

Jaldon is an interesting character.  In life he traveled as far as Kralorela according to the Pavis Common Knowledge handout.

11 hours ago, jajagappa said:

Which is why I can't see wagons hauling lots of timber across Prax, even along the Pavis Road.

In my mind, there's one viable source, the Rockwood Mountains particularly the Redwood Forest, and one viable transport mechanism, logs sent down the Zola Fel (does not even require boats).

A fine point, and the fact is that it is plausible.  The upper reaches of the Zola Fel are definitely forested, and we know Barran the Monster Killer goes there for giant boot timber.  So what are the drawbacks?  Well firstly you are going into an Elf forest that exists inside Troll lands.  Now the elves are apparently defending the stump of their Shanasse tree and worship the Torch that makes the Shadows Dance.  The light in the hills?  A trophy torch left by the trolls to attract chaos?   It all sounds pretty Yelmalion.  It also says that the Aldryami are green elves and not numerous.  So the defenders of the Redwoods are beleaguered Yelmalion green elves.  Do they want you stealing their trees?  I doubt it, regardless.  But lets say that there is some second age compact between Pavis Elf-Blood and the Redwood Elves regarding timber.  I daresay that the timber will be from trees that die or are damaged by trolls, which will limit the harvest.

6 hours ago, Mark Mohrfield said:

But what about Leaping Place Falls? I'm beginning to think that any viable explanation for getting timber to Pavis requires a magical explanation at some point.

To which we have the reply

5 hours ago, jajagappa said:

Don't stand below it when the timber comes down.

Another reason why boats aren't viable, but logs going down the falls should work (maybe they use undines to slow the traverse down?). 

Well... a 500 foot drop isn't going to do your logs much good, especially as waterfalls tend to scour the landscape beneath them to bare rock. Now when a log hits rocks from such a height the impact generally shatters your log "to shivers". As for the playful undines that slow the traverse of said logs, they had better be drawn from the souls of dead lovers who wanted to commit suicide, because redwood logs weigh many tons and are coming down that waterfall at terminal velocity with more force than a great troll's maul.  Undines will be splashed into a million puddles.  The other thing is, and I cannot emphasize this enough, the Leaping Place falls are a site of pilgrimage for the Zola Fel Cult.  Imagine their joy when, as they bathe in the sacred rushing water of their God's holiest place, that their deity (or some *%#$!) delivers them the unexpected blessing of tons of lethal plummeting log.  Roll dodge then the furious survivors can seek violent retribution for this blasphemous atrocity, possibly to be joined by a murderous band of Green Elves, eyes glazed, all hopped up on arrow trance out to avenge the plunder of their stand of ancestors. You may have the agreement of the Yelmalion elves, but they forgot to clear it with the Aldrayan fundamentalists. Needless to say that the trolls in the background just bide their time and "say grace" just as the fight ends, giving thanks to the Spider of Fate for the bounty that has been delivered to them this fine evening.

So, anyone bringing timber down from the Redwoods will need to portage the logs around the Leaping Place Falls.  Now are the Zola Fel Cult going to think that building a crane operation to lower the logs by rope is acceptable?  No, it's an eyesore, plus 500+ foot is a damn long hawser, and it is definitely going to snap, and when it does, it will unleash plenty of force.  It is simply not physically possible without a substantial Mostali technical presence and at least 2 kilometers worth of armor enchanted rope.

And we are back to the wagons, but this time the wagons aren't on the Pavis Road.  So, remembering their little ISIS fatwah(a) against wagons, an ululating warcry breaks out and the Praxians descend upon the hapless and vulnerable portagers, who have their load on a dangerous slope.  Don't the Taliban Society nomads laugh when the driver of the laden wagon on a slope is shot between the eyes with an arrow and slumps, releasing the brake, sending the wagon careening down the slope squashing everyone in front of it, oops!  Then there is another one... and another.  It's raining battering rams!  Now of course this is not to say that the Praxians will not attack a party in a vulnerable position who are using mules to haul a log, but your profit margin depends on the quantity of wood delivered, and mules are just not a cost effective or physically practical form of transport for logs.

I am not saying it can't be done.  Clearly Baran the Monster Killer does it.  In fact the most likely people to manage the process are the Zola Fel cult.  Portaging the logs around the leaping place will require digging a sluiceway for the logs, possibly housing undines to control the loads around the corners.  It is also possible that there is an agreement to ship logs from the Redwoods, as the god Pavis was kin to those elves and the elves of the Garden are proof of that continued link.  Given the ecologically conscious nature of the cults involved however, I just don't see how it can ever be a major source of timber without damaging the forest and the river, and altering the geography.  Back to Lokarnos wagons across Prax.  I am enjoying this btw.

On 11/6/2016 at 9:28 PM, Iskallor said:

Scaffold if Bronze will still be around to use as would timber made ones. The wood won't be rotting thanks to the climate and there's heaps of magic around to make sure it stays good...RQ repair spells, sorcery and in Heroquest you just make something up: a charm that suits, or the use of a rune etc etc. Using your Stasis rune in HQ is far easier than your one use rune spell....

People all to often overlook the magic that is everywhere and concentrate far to much on our world for why things do or don't work. It might sound hand wavy but hey so what it is Glorantha.

Opilli worshippers/human masons would have the building malarky down pat by now. Plus there's plenty of ancestors and other helpful spirits to help.

Importing bamboo and growing it locally would solve many problems. Something your Lokarnos merchants can organize with their Pelorian settlers.

Saplings that provide the 3 to 6m poles needed for spears, lances and pikes would grow in abundance along the river. The Sun Domers would coppice these and I'm sure settlers would get in on the market.

Perhaps nomads take them as raid tribute from river for or have oasis folk coppicing them.

Don't forget Arrow bushes.

Yeah, the whole HQ magic system is too easy and lacks the grittiness I want in a game.  I cut my teeth on RQ2 and grew up on RQ3, and I found HQ Glorantha a substantial disappointment, and I was not alone. Season to taste of course, you obviously like your Glorantha more the HQ way. YGWV.

You say that people often overlook that magic is everywhere in Glorantha.  But look again.  Ordinary people really don't have much access to that magic.  Most people will probably be a member of one pretty mundane cult, because it is all they can afford, and they aren't heroes of legend, they are everyday heroes struggling to survive a difficult bronze age existence.  Are there heroquests for growing cabbages and stickpicking?  Indubitably, but that is all done at Sacred Time.  For the rest of the year for most Gloranthans life can be pretty mundane (assuming it isn't under threat).  For me the appeal of Glorantha was not that it was a high magic environment, but in the realization of pantheonic and tribal mythic visions and relationships as the magic, while essentially keeping the magic sort of low key and the environment low fantasy.  The fact is, (to use King of Sartar the computer game as an example), you can have no sacred time magic for herds, and fail your Uralda heroquest badly, but still make your herds grow through good management, raiding and trade.  So did your heroquest really fail?  Did your rituals really fail?  Or maybe it is possible to succeed despite all the magic (there's an irony)?  The mundane world matters.  Grounding Glorantha in real world examples makes it better imo, because it makes the world more textured and the magic more "magical" when it is there. Of course my argument on this point is purely aesthetic.

Opili masons etc.  Yes they probably do have the building malarky down pat by now, in fact they would have had it down pat before Pavis fell, but sourcing timber is a part of that process.  Did you ever wonder why the Big Rubble hasn't been rebuilt? I can guarantee it isn't just because of all the trolls.  Yes, shortage of building materials.  Too expensive.

As to importing bamboo, probably not for Pavis in 1620, because bamboo makes a natural mold for terracotta tiles, hence the distinctive shape of the tiles of traditional roofs in China and Japan etc.  Pavic architecture is more middle eastern, and no hemispherical tiles are in evidence.  But yes, I am sure that it is possible to introduce fast growing bamboo varieties to the Zola Fel valley and then watch in horror as it takes off after the local plant species like a broo in a barnyard.  And you thought the God Learners were bad with their goddess switch

Timber is seldom a viable trade commodity, because it is normally heavy and low value.  Not in Pavis however, nor in Ancient Egypt.  Egypt benefited from having overseas timber sources, and ports to draw upon.  Using ships to transport heavy cargoes is not so bad.  Corflu isn't really up to it yet though, and what was New Pavis doing before Corflu?

  I also recognize that the Oasis people grow trees, but there are very few Oasis timbers that are any good for weapons IRL.  In fact fig and date and other oasis woods are crappy for building too; fine for fruit though.  Ancient Egypt had a similar economy to the Zola Fel river, and timber was a huge import for them. 

I take what people are saying about supplies of cypress from the lower Zola Fel and the Bog seriously.  I am sure that there are solutions for shipping wood to New Pavis, but the city's requirements, not to mention all the outlying settlements, would rapidly denude the wild cypress trees along the Zola Fel.

If there is a Red Elf caravan coming down from the Rockwoods with timber, fine, but how are they transporting it?  Elves aren't known for having great transportation methods, or for trading in timber for that matter.  Isn't selling timber sort of like desecrating the bones of their ancestors? I think human and even mostali and troll timber "raids" would be more likely, especially after Barran the Monster Slayer gets his giant boot timber.  Of course transporting the material will be difficult... and thus we are back to wagons...

Simply put, you can put timber on a mule or on some other beast of burden, but you are grossly limited in how much and what lengths of material they can carry before being overburdened, then you have to feed and water the poor beasts every day, not to mention loading and unloading them again as well, which means paying mule skinners who can properly balance loads and unload without accidentally crippling the animals.  It is a huge problem over long distances.  Floating logs down a stream is a good answer, if you happen to have a stream handy.  Floating logs up a stream is less handy but possible with the right sort of boat and know-how if there aren't too many rapids.   But wagons are so much better at this task it is breathtaking.

On 11/7/2016 at 1:03 AM, M Helsdon said:

The Pavis Road is an unpaved Lunar military road, so during the Occupation it would be a source of wood - there are going to be few trade items from Pavis and surrounds worth the effort of taking back west (save for magical or historical artifacts from the Rubble), so having carried supplies to the garrisons, wagons might be broken up at Pavis and sold for a tidy profit...

'The caravan master says three wagons have been damaged en route, sir. It's the state of the road. He asks permission to sell them off.'

'Does he? We're losing too many. The Army can't afford this. Tell him to get them repaired.'

'Ah, sir. I forgot. Here's your cut from the last sale.'

'Thank you. Now are you sure it was only three wagons that should be listed as irreparable?'

I loved this.  Thanks M Helsdon.  This is the New Pavis I remember.  "Cast a detect magic on the damn things before you disassemble them, you don't want to strip down the wrong one and have some "Block Anus" merchant bitching to the Governor about how you buggered his matrices.  Next thing you know Sor Eel will figure out our angle, he will come swooping in for his cut and the game is up for us little players."  To which his buddy laughs "Haw!  Sor-Eel swooping!  I can't think of a less majestic figure of a man."   The point is that the Lunar Military has some of the deepest pockets in Glorantha in 1620 and big plans to make Corflu into a major trading port, and potentially a large shipyard to boot.  Some might say that was one of their major reasons for invading Prax; they wanted a port on the Homeward Ocean.  That means the wagons will keep the timber rolling and if there is a bit of corruption along the way, well, just so long as the job gets done...  The fact that it is an inevitable economic bubble, because Corflu is all but uninhabitable due to the disease and giant mosquitoes, it needs constant dredging, and has little access to ship building supplies.  It is merely an upcoming central planning comedy that will embarrass the Empire.