Darius West

What do we know about Praxian bachelor societies and warrior societies ?  I mean we know a lot about Storm Bull, and a bit about Oakfed and the Three Feathered Rivals.  I would imagine there must be a plethora of Praxian spirit cults that sub-initiate within and without clans. Glorantha: The Second Age: Pavis Rises on pages 91-96 details a simple system for randomizing ancestors, and I believe that Avalon Hill's Heroes ran a detailed article on the Ostrich riders that had a write up on their integration of Yelmalio as a warrior society, as well as a boomerang cult? Or has my memory failed me?  We also know from Cults of Prax that Morak is the product of a secret Storm Bull mating ritual conducted by such a society, something that Norayeep oddly seemed a little ashamed of.  On the other hand that suggests that young women join warrior societies too, meaning that Eiritha herd expertise is potentially available, and warrior societies probably have their own herds.  It is also possible for Eiritha worshipers to join such societies looking for a husband if their prospects aren't wonderful with their clan.

18 hours ago, David Scott said:

These are all fine sources, but they are all missing the mix of different animal tribes that the Praxians have. It's the tribes that were set against each other. I'm also not saying there isn't politicking within tribes - khans need to be "voted" in the positions of authority. It goes on all the time.

So you see the process of becoming Khan as essentially a democratic process?  It never even occurred to me that a Khan was elected.  I always assumed that Khans were chosen through a more ritual and initiatory process; that clan members were keeping a mental note of who was the best leader, the best raider, the best defender of the herd, the one others might learn from. I assumed that Khans had to perform a series of difficult ordeals, quite apart from their formal Waha initiation, vision quests involving starvation and psychotropics, or more "A man called horse" style pain based initiations, part hazing, part heroquest.  I thought that the child of a Khan gained a huge starting advantage by being around "power" and thus was more likely to inherit as would any noble, not to mention that they would be more likely to receive an advantageous marriage.  Of course the Eiritha priestesses would want  a fertile Khan who would listen to them, and who was an able leader and warrior too, and could play politics to get their candidate selected.  In the case of 2 or more highly able candidates, no doubt there would be a series of trials by ordeal, or a short quest to determine the best candidate.  I would guess however that on most occasions, the present Khan would simply name a successor, and if the successor didn't measure up then the clan would gradually drift into the ambit of another clan for a while before splitting off under another leader.  Voting with their hooves if you will.  I suppose an unpopular or incompetent choice might make people pack up and leave early.  I would have thought that a quasi democratic process like wapentake might be fine to select who would lead a raid, but selecting a Khan would be a lot more of a top-down selection process by the clan religious hierarchy.

To the original point however, I concur that peace would be the preferred norm within a Praxian Beast Tribe, unreservedly even.  I mean of all the people who you can make war on, why your own relatives?  Why your own tribe?  On the other hand, I think human relations have a tendency towards fractiousness, and often the bitterest fights and rivalries are those within an organization or familial group.  That is where prestige and power is handed out, and someone always winds up feeling slighted, someone always has an ambitious spouse who wants a bigger slice of the pie, someone is always bitter that they didn't get the girl or the boy or were the younger brother and nurse a resentment.  I would suspect that a lot of what Waha does around the campfire of an evening in fact is trust building stories and methods to strengthen internal clan bonds and mitigate trouble before it occurs.

10 hours ago, David Scott said:

Basically no, it's not the Way of Waha. In my mind it's basically kinslaying - don't forget the animals are kin. If you want to set it up as the central core of an adventure - that's fine as this kind of thing is in the realm of story telling. Waha the Raider is the task of Waha that sets this up for the tribes of the Covenent. Raid others, take their beasts, sacrifice them to Eiritha, return their souls to the Great Herd so that they may be reborn and eat well. In times of hardship, eat your own, but not do not raid your own people. There is no honor in that. Also bear in mind that herds are dowry. You need to capture enough other beasts to show your worth. If you steal your own herd beasts, your Mother and Grandmother will not accept them. They did not rear them, they are worthless. This also points to why the Pol-Joni are such a good buffer on the edges of Prax - they don't raid Sartar for cattle, it's the same problem.

Bandits and outlaws and those not of the Covenant ignore these rules, they are not bound by the Way of Waha. 

So what happens when the Sables who have accepted the Red Moon meets the White Bull Sables? They sit down all chummy by the fireside and laugh about the vagueries of the deities like a bunch of old illuminates?  Probably not.  Politics is very pragmatic, and in many ways direct religion, and Waha is a very pragmatic deity.  We know that warrior societies form and "bully" clans politically, as Jaldon did after his early and unsuccessful attacks on Pavis. 

I see it differently.  Waha values strength, and raiding is a way of life.  Different clans within a tribe may well have ongoing political differences, for example when Ansil Clan needs 25 head for a dowry and Flower Bison owes them 25 head but says they cannot afford to give them up because their herds are too small, Ansil takes the 25 in a raid as they are warlike and feel owed AND slighted, but this enrages Flower Bison who counter raid to get them back, starting a tit-for-tat feud and breaking.  Similarly if a Khan wants to count coup against another Khan within his tribe, stealing from him shows that he is weak while the successful raider is strong.  

The real issue is the spilling of human blood in such raids.  The raiders are probably obliged to disable but not kill their opponents, and when such a taboo is broken then an outlawry, death price, and reconciliation has a chance to occur.  On the other hand sometimes these old wrongs have a long tradition, and even at tribal moots the other clans need to separate the problem members on opposite sides of the camping ground.  Often warring clans form the political polarities within tribes, and the tribe itself serves as a means of mitigating the worst excesses of the conflict and stop it escalating.  In King of Sartar for example, it is quite acceptable for feuding clans to be in the same tribe; the danger being that they can shift to another tribe and potentially cause a tribal war.  That is no danger in Prax, as once an impala rider always an impala rider; clans don't switch beasts.

As for female power stopping the feud, I think you will find that often it is the womenfolk driving the feud behind the scenes, especially if we are drawing on anthropological precedents from our world, like the Bedouins, the Berbers, the Mongols, the Tibetan herders, and the Plains tribes of North America. 

Do Praxians raid other clans of their tribe?  E.g. do Bison riders raid bison riders on occasion, or Ostrich riders raid their own?  What are the consequences for such raids ?  Do they signal a catastrophic upheaval within the clan or is such activity pretty ordinary?  

ls it possible that while the entry #271,852 starts on page 30, that entry #271,852 goes for 3 or more pages, and the relevant text entry is on page 32?  That way both entries are correct but using a marginally different notion of how to reference, as would be typical in any LM temple, and would generate endless academic arguments.

18 hours ago, M Helsdon said:

Though such a helmet offers more protection than leather, it would not survive many serious blows because the teeth would shatter. A bronze helmet would be superior in every way.

That is true only up to a point.  As far as I am aware, the tusks were on top of a leather helmet, and broken teeth could be replaced. A bronze helmet by comparison could not be so easily repaired as it would require re-casting any broken piece from scratch.  You can't just cold work bronze back into position, or even reforge it the way you do with iron. Bronze is a very unforgiving material.  I am sure re-sewing a few broken tusks is a doddle by comparison.

How can you take no credit while being listed in the credits?  If you are listed in the credits, you are probably allowed to take a little...

As for the RQ6 hack, I already have a copy, but thx.

4 hours ago, M Helsdon said:

Despite a boar's tusk helmet being described in the Iliad as 'unique' representations of them on Mycenaean pottery are common and a number (fragments included) have been excavated. Each helmet required tusks from around forty to fifty boars (or large domesticated pigs).

Only 40 or 50 pigs huh?  Well if the tusks are too small you can't use them, so that would mean either keeping a boar alive for long enough to produce good tusks or buying the tusks from a hunter.  RQ6 says that a regular pig costs 50 silver and a superior pig costs 150 silver.  So pricing tusks, even at half the value of a "reasonable pig" still makes the price of the helmet 1250 silvers, but lets face facts, it is probably more expensive.  This at least makes  a tusk helmet around the price of a standard plated helmet costs (1400), and probably a lot more.  It would probably weigh around the same amount too at a guess.

I don't know where you found that Baragie, I didn't know the Unofficial Elder Scrolls RPG existed.  You have my profound thanks. BFF

When you think about it, a helmet made of boars' tusks represents a phenomenal amount of wealth.  How many tusks does it take to make such a helmet?  500? 1000?  Then divide by 2 and multiply by the price of a boar...  Given the thickness of a boar's tusk and the weight of it, a helmet like that would also be worth a lot of AP, and might well have an intrinsic enchantment.  Anyone want to write them up for the Plunder thread?

So, Ken Rolston worked on the Elder Scrolls, it has a big Romanesque but not Roman empire, it has rebellious barbarians, it has mechanistic dwarves who are extinct, (admittedly it has quasi Tolkien elves not vegetables with legs).  It has a percentile system.  I agree that Morrowind was the best.  I loved Skyrim, but Morrowind was better.  Now it's all over bar the shouting.

On 3/2/2016 at 9:45 AM, Paid a bod yn dwp said:

Thanks, thats exactly what i was looking for.

A quick comparison and I see a few minor but sensible changes:

• The Sheriff (or Sheruff), has become a Thane, in keeping with the Glorantha setting.
• The weapon masters guild hall has been removed completely.
• The "housemasters guild" changed to the humbler "Stables"

I guess "guild" has too many medieval connotations, not suitable to the ancient setting of Glorantha.

Overall Apple lane remains largerly the same, but without those few medieval associations. I can see how it works in the Gloranthan context now much more clearly. I can also see what a red hearing the 3rd edition cover was, with the medieval plate armoured Donald duck ( Quack John),  as well as the wording  "Save the Hamlet from Scurrilous Scoundrels", which sounds like it could have come from the pages of Robin Hood.

While guilds may superficially look like utterly medieval trade associations, in fact there have been similar associations since Sumer and they are common to pretty much every urban society.  You even find guilds in Japan, Persia, Egypt, Rome, China, Thailand and India albeit with a few interesting cultural nuances.  For example China's Tongs and Japan's yakuza syndicates began life as guilds, with the same religious connotations as the European guild's use of Patron Saints, except they were primarily Buddhist but became increasingly criminal in their orientation due to oppression from above, becoming proto-resistance movements.  As Sartar's official coin is the "Guilder" it makes sense to have a system of urban guilds in the cities and towns and even into the countryside, probably set up with charters by king Sartar himself, to wisely protect the skill base and production of the Kingdom.  Though I agree that the notion of a weapon master's guild is a bit far fetched.   

As for Sherruffs, initially I utterly hated the concept and saw it as transposing a US model onto a bronze age village when I read it, but after a while I began to see some merit in the idea.  Orlanthi are at best a loose and voluntary confederation, and would take poorly to a heavy handed central authority handing down laws to them.  As Sartar was smarter than that, the notion of the clans appointing a thane to fulfill the role of a royal law enforcer who doesn't interfere in inter-tribal or inter-clan warfare but maintains the peace and harmony between the clan who he effectively serves, and the Kingdom, is a pretty good compromise.  To that end, 20 years ago I included Sherruffs (yep, complete with the mis-spelling) as an official part of the Kingdom of Sartar. My players were Tovtari who lived in a water stead about 2 miles from Ironspike, but Ironspike had a sherruff up until Sartar was conquered in 1602 (the game started in 1594 from memory).  Sherruffs had to have the courage of Orlanth, the skill of Humakt, the wisdom of Lhankor Mhy and the golden tongue of Issaries.  Even the clan kings deferred to them, and because they had to work together so often, many sherruffs colluded together to end clan feuds and sew notions of nationhood among their clans.  The notion of a lone lawman isn't out of character with the Orlanthi way at all, though it does speak to an earlier time in RQ.  I found and transcribed my old notes on Sherruffs today.   Feel free to hate on it, the game was a long time ago.  Please find the file attached below:

Sherruffs.pdf

10 minutes ago, Pentallion said:

Some things should be left for the GM.

Yes totally.  In fact tRSoT probably shouldn't even make an appearance.  I was totally joking.  Providing stats for the Red Sword of Tolat such a "Deities and Demigods" thing to do.  But how about the unbreakable sword then huh? huh?

So who wants to stat up the Red Sword of Tolat? LOL

Synonyms for phratry include "stirp", and "stemma" which both indicate a single common ancestor forming the line.  You could also adopt words from nomad cultures such as the Native Americans, Hungarians, Mongols etc.

So can I get some idea of the comparative sizes of these various divisions within the tribes and their purpose?

E.g. what is the purpose of a sept, and how many people are in it?

I agree with you that Phratry lacks poetry as a term, belonging in a turgid anthro lecture about kinship more than Prax.  As I am not quite clear about how you affiliate with a phratry I can't offer any alternatives.  

If you are looking for a 1920s Jazz sort of feel, but don't want to go with Jazz classics, an alternative is Postmodern Jukebox.

Yeah, I just rickrolled you.

I love the Book of Enoch, it is completely hilarious.  It goes into great detail about how the angels work the doors that allow the winds in and how the rain falls through a great sieve hidden behind the clouds.  This world machine would be dear to any Mostali's heart, but we Godlearners merely smile politely, then giggle to each other about their failure to understand basic meteorological principles from behind our imported Kralorelan fans while sipping fizzy beverages made from exotic Dawn Isles fruit and herbs.  

The problems with the Skyrim magic system when compared to Glorantha are pretty obvious.  Basically Elder Scrolls magic is sorcery by RQ standards, and not standard RQ sorcery.  The mana system is fine in that it translates to Magic points in a straightforwards way, but mana potions are not really a standard in Glorantha so they would have to be far more rare, if they exist at all, instead there would have to be alternative systems for spirit combat worked into the game and of course crystals and fetishes instead of the Elder Scrolls Soul Trap system which is like RQ but is NOT RQ.  

Obviously the deities would have to become more front and central.  At the moment "The Nine" basically provide minor stat buffs, and the Daedra Lords are basically a bunch of magically powerful fetishistic perverts who want you to do silly quest  things in return for their special unique magic items, many of which aren't actually all that flash.

There would probably need to be cult skill trees that focused on providing advantages for specific skills and abilities and Rune Spells that trigger like racial abilities, basically once a day, or require a certain amount of prayer and devotional activity to refresh.

Skyrim has decently Sartarite architecture, but a few more rude huts would be good.  The various clans would of course all have their Tulas, and that would require some research to get a sense of what they would look like.  King of Dragon Pass tells us all about temples and fortifications, but is doesn't tell us about animal pens, farm steads and halls, and how they vary from clan to clan.  I imagine that the most diverse of these will be in Far Point where the steads have spiked roofs to stop Giant Stomp, and also lake steads that are like crannogs https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crannog.

My own personal bitch with Elder Scrolls is the flippant lip service it pays to mounted combat.  Yes you can get on a horse, and eventually they let you fight from horseback, though you can only swing a weapon on one side of the mount, and no matter how hard you are hit you remain mounted until you die, or until your horse dies.  As I am a devotee of "Mount and Blade" (which still doesn't allow you to be dismounted by a hard blow), I know it can be done better.  Speaking of which, if Skyrim Dragon Pass seems implausible, perhaps Mount and Blade Pent/Prax/Wastes might be a better alternative?  Wow, imagine doing the wire frames for Rhinos, Ostriches etc, lol.

That's great!  I must say that Polish has a lot of "Z"s in it.  It must make playing scrabble impossible without a Polish set.  Bądź zdrowy!

Well, I think the reference in RQ Adventures says that the head hunting cult is called Otyan, probably a reference to Atyar and Tien. 

I have an alternative idea... what if the suggestively named Hedkoranth offers a specific Divine Spell to tribes with an interest in head hunting, quite apart from Create Thunderstone?  One based on the Tathlum of Irish legend?  Where the heads of fallen enemies are covered in lime in hidden caves, and prepared for the day when they will be hurled at the enemy along with the hidden clan stores of woad and thunderstone?

Enchant Hurling Head

Ritual, Enchant Spell, Stackable to 6 points, One use (special).

This spell may only be cast on Windsday of Mobility week each season by initiates and priests of Hedkoranth.  If cast on the High Holy Day of Orlanth it is reusable for priests of Hedkoranth.  It requires access to tar and gypsum, with which the head is coated, often leaving the hair in place as a convenient handle, and the heads are tended every season.  The important thing to note is that Blessed Heads are hostile to the wielder and must be disposed of carefully.  The face of the Hurling Head is still visibly the one of the victim from which it was taken.

1 Point:  The head is covered with layers of gypsum and a disorder rune is carved on its cheek.  The hardened head will now do 1d6 damage when thrown or slung as a missile and will demoralize all opponents who can see the head as if the caster were using the spell with their POW.  This demoralize effect is twice as effective on the victim who is struck by the head.  It requires 2 points of Countermagic or equivalent to resist this effect.

2 Points:  The head is covered with a heavier layer of gypsum, and has all the effects of the first point but now does +3 damage and weighs 2 enc.

3 Points:  The head is now covered in a layer of flammable corrosive tar and carved with a fire rune, and while providing demoralization it now acts as a 3d6+3 damage firearrow as well causing enemies struck to potentially catch fire.

4 Points:  As with the 3 point spell, but now the fire and force of the head do 4d6+3 damage, and the fire is more intense, causing the opponent struck to catch fire automatically when struck.

5 Points:  As with the above, but now it removes 1d6 MP from the opponent struck.

6 Points: As above, but now the damage done acts in place of POW for a Sever Spirit spell i.e. if 12 damage is done, the Sever Spirit is cast as if it were cast with 12 POW.

Blessed heads are generally considered vengeance weapons, and not for use in "clean" or honorable warfare.  They are used on occasion by Orlanthi as part of an intense feud, as generally decapitating an enemy and then throwing their head at their family as such a horrific weapon is either an impossible insult, or a sign that things have gone too far.  Humakti and Elmali will not countenance the use of Hurling Heads and will leave the side of a conflict that employs them.  Stormbulls however are surprisingly well disposed to the idea.  The Cult of Hedkoranth does not encourage the use of this magic as it has a bad reputation, and the connotations are verging on chaos, however as a cult secret to be employed against enemies with which no quarter is asked or given, they are a thing to be feared.  Most tribes with a strong Hedkoranthi presence will maintain a hidden cave or cellar where the arsenal of these terrible weapons are kept against the day when they may be needed.

LOL, who will stop the Rise of Cutethulhu?

You have raised a really good question.  When handling interpersonal relations, sometimes other communications can substitute for psychology for getting a "read" on people.  As the rules say that characters resist communication skills with their communication skills, it is implied that a god communicator can understand when they are being "fed a line", and may even be able to tell more from the line they are fed (by implication) than they could from a psych roll.  After all, every lie you get told is a better indicator of what the truth actually is, because it is the truth that every lie protects, so you ask, "What is this lie protecting, and what is it diverting me from?"  This works IRL btw.

As for spot hidden, well, most clues are located in spaces that are relevant to particular skills, i.e. offices, workshops, warehouses, houses.  An eye trained in what happens in a workshop or a building site would be able to spot what was out of place or hidden as well as or even better than a good spotter. 

Don't ignore Listen rolls as possible substitutes.  A quaver in a voice, or a loose floorboard, or a thump in the distance might all be clues.  Watch out however as Listen seldom costs as much SAN as seeing things.  I have always found that Spot Hidden is a mixed blessing in CoC, a bit like Mythos Skill.  Successful Spot Hiddens are often tragic SAN killers.

The other thing you can do is to simply decide that if a character has a skill in excess of a certain margin in a certain situation that the information will be forthcoming without a roll, as a sort of default.

The rules say that rolls are supposed to be used to build tension, and that failed rolls merely mean that more time is required to complete the task because an insight has been missed.  Now by the same token you can, and should, ask players to make spot hidden rolls when there is nothing present to discover, then tut to yourself, or chuckle when they make it or miss it, so they players can't "read the Keeper" so easily.

So what is this I hear about there being the ruin of a city under Ex?  Could it be Gorilla City?

I am very surprised that Dark Corners of the Earth did so badly.  I am not surprised by the budget for Skyrim however, and 80+ million is hard to raise.  I believe Ken Rolston has a lot to do with Bethesda and was instrumental in much of the Elder Scrolls btw.

Actually there is an alternative...

You see, the creation engine for Skyrim is now public access, and it has the terrain features required to build a pretty good Dragon Pass...

Of course the magic would need considerable reworking to fit in with RQ, but the system is percentages and the perk per level does make for interesting characters.

This would mean creating quite a few new critters of course, but there is no reason why a group of like minded Gloranthaphiles couldn't combine forces to build Dragon Pass as a Skyrim mod.  Obviously it would require some organization, a central hub where things were uploaded to, an agreement to program with a view to integrating new material, a checklist of things that need doing that will be LONG, and some brave soul who will volunteer to be King of Dragon Pass... i.e. provide oversight, direction, veto, and creative direction.

Think of me as the blind seer, coming to tell the clan that it is time to form a tribe by performing the Making of the Storm Tribe Hero Quest.