Darius West

4 hours ago, Rodney Dangerduck said:

If this were true, every 16 year old boy, and many of the girls, would join Yinkin, making it by far the largest cult in all of Sartar.  Doesn't seem to be the case.  🙂

You can bet that the Yinkini are breaking them in, but not many are cool enough to make it as a permanent fixture with the Yinkini crowd. Most are ultimately of a more conventional moral fiber.

15 hours ago, Joerg said:

There seems to be a tradition for Yinkin worshippers to inhabit solitary cabins at least part of the time.

The "solitary cabin" thing is just because the neighbors always complain about the continuous and raucous sex noises at all hours of the day and night.  It's difficult to venerate Lhankor Mhy when the neighbors are having howling orgasms in the next temple over.

Point:  You completely ignore the whole Yinkini promiscuity and heroic disregard for marriage.  They are out there banging away like ZZ Deathlords in a cave full of uppity trollkin.  They are at it like alley cats, because that is their god's teaching.  Nobody joins Yinkin because of the hunting bonuses.  There is only one reason you join Yinkin...  SEX! SEX! SEX! 

I think Yinkin worshipped Uleria... Prove me wrong.

😝

14 hours ago, Joerg said:

To make this Gloranthan again, Maran Gor's Earth Shakers probably include both ancient synapsids and oversized reptiles outside of the dinosaur family proper.

It is certain that Glorantha needs more taxonomic mythology to account for some of the odd creatures out there.

The way in which Maran Gor, Hykim and Mikyh and the Dragonewts tie together to produce Gloranthan dinosaurs is far from explained.  We know that de-pathed dragonewts become dinosaurs (allegedly), somehow losing connection to their eggs, but it is not explained how this causes them to fall into the orbit of Maran Gor, and what her connection to dinosaurs really is.  We probably need a specific topic to cover this too, assuming one doesn't already exist.

On 7/2/2022 at 4:00 AM, FlamingCatOfDeath said:

“The God Learners found connections between deities that were unknown to the stories. But those connections worked and enabled them to do amazing things. In short, the God Learners didn’t squeeze those myths into their own “truth” – rather they carefully studied countless myths, experienced them, and then found new connections previously unknown.

The God Learners downfall did not come because their approach was in error, but because they themselves grew proud and arrogant, and viewed the cosmos as something to be exploited to their benefit.”

-Jeff

https://wellofdaliath.chaosium.com/god-learner-divine-genealogies-i/

Now go and read about the Great Goddess Switch where the God Learners took 2 maize goddesses and interchanged their worship, believing them to be the same deity, but it turns out that while that was sort of true, it was also very false.  You can call experimentation arrogance, but how can you know if a principle is true unless you test it?  As to exploiting the world to one's own benefit, that includes literally every culture ever in Glorantha and Earth.  For example, would we even consider conservation or ecology as ideas if we weren't aware that these models of sustainability weren't to our long term benefit?  Would other cultures who try to maintain some notion of not over-using their resources do so if they didn't understand these acts were not to their benefit?  I strongly doubt it.  Cultures inevitably exploit the cosmos they find themselves in, and they have no choice but to do so.  This is however a long way off the point of the topic of what Ostrich Riders call their mask of Yelmalio.

10 hours ago, soltakss said:

So, they worshipped Yelmalio and Tharkantus, if he was a Sub-Cult of Yelmalio.

Not quite.  They worship Tharkantus as Yelmalio, in the same way that the cult of Balazar is the worship of Balazar as Yelmalio.  Yelmalio seems to have as many masks as Nyarlathotep, so many in fact that I am beginning to wonder if those chaos rumors aren't true.

21 hours ago, metcalph said:

Yelmalio has been in Prax since the Imperial Age.  The Ostrich Riders probably only worshipped minor light spirits to compensate for lost Yamsur until Yelmalio came along.

I have since done some more looking into the origins of the Ostrich Riders and the info comes up with the Ratite Empire and the Riskesting Empire (we don't quite know if they were the same thing, or perhaps dynasties of the same Rinliddi affiliated avilry empire), and the god Veng, aka Ghevengus who is Row 1 Image 10 (Star 15) on the God's Wall near Raibanth.

Given that the Riskesting Empire is pre-Time (existing in the Storm Age), and the fact we know the Ostrich Tribe have lived in Prax as Praxians since the beginning of Time, they are likely to have arrived as refugees like so many others and been rolled into the Praxian culture.

I don't debate that Yamsur may well have been the original Ostrich war deity, but we just don't know.

Another point that interests me is that the Pure Horse Tribe likely had dealings with the Ostriches, and we know the Pure Horse "Yelmalio" is called Jardan  and like all the other Yelmalios is god of the Yellow Planet.  I find the idea that we had the Mo Baustrans worshipping Tharkantus, the Pure Horse worshiping Jardan, and the Ostriches worshiping "someone" to be amusing, while the Praxians call the Yellow Planet "Sun Daughter".  The same deity, likely known by 4 different names in 2nd Age Prax not to mention that Pavis had dealings with the Teshnans who may well call Yelmalio "Somash" at the same time.

11 hours ago, soltakss said:

In fact, giving them all different names for no reason except to make them different, is tiring for me.

That's how the God Learners get you.  Theirs is the reductionist and lazy way.  Maize Goddess A=Maize Goddess B, except it just ain't quite so.

11 hours ago, soltakss said:

I see Yelmalio as having been brought to Prax to assist Joraz Kyrem, when he HeroQuested to Dragon pass for allies against the Praxians. I don't see any reason to say they worshipped Tharkantus or any other name, except when using that as a pseudonym for Yelmalio.

Dig a bit deeper.  Tharkantus is the name the people of Mo Baustra give their deity, not Yelmalio.  Tharkantus is a Second Age subcult of Yelmalio, much like Balazar.

This was an especially in depth and interesting post Joerg, thanks.

19 hours ago, Joerg said:

Dragonewts have one of the oldest cultures in Glorantha, and may have domesticated these birds as soon as the first dragonewts evolved into the warrior stage, or possibly as soon as the first warrior dragonewts strayed from the draconic path and degenerated into dinosaurs.

Obviously on Earth we know that saurians and avians are pretty close, so the moa-like demibirds could effectively be saurians and never avians.  They have solid bones, not hollow avian after all, and that indicates to me that they were never fliers and were likely never meant to be.

19 hours ago, Joerg said:

There are, or at least there were feathered dinosaurs in Glorantha (after our real world science learned that our own picture of scaled dinos may have been overdone by Industrial Light and Magic). At least when it was suggested to Greg that the Dara Happan gazzam may have been feathered he wasn't against the idea, and the Maran Gor Earth Shakers include both reptilian and furred species, so why not feathered ones.

Too true.

19 hours ago, Joerg said:

I don't see the dragonewt-related saurians as feathered, though - dragonewt wings are the typical chiroptera (bat)-like hands with skin in between rather than just the fourth fingers of pterodactyls. The wings are an extra pair of limbs anyway. Thus I don't think that the demibirds are closely related to dragonewts. They may be children of Earth and Sky (to inherit the feathers), and of the ancestral beast dragons Hykim and Mikyh.

Fair enough.

20 hours ago, Joerg said:

There probably are myths about how the demibirds came about, but those belong to the dragonewts and happened in a distant early Godtime that normal human visitors of Godtime cannot access. Dragonewts may remember everything, but communication with dragonewt has been haphazard even during the EWF.

Can we say with certainty that demibirds existed prior to the EWF as dragonewt mounts?  I mean, what if they are recent?

21 hours ago, Joerg said:

Demibirds were named alongside the extinct (however permanent, given Rinliddi experimentation) augners and the Praxian ostriches, as ratites.

Yes.  This is where things get interesting.  I had bumped into this in the Fortunate Succession, but it all gets very interesting when you chase down this rabbit hole.  You meet the augner clan of Esrolia, the god Veng aka Ghevengus who created avilry (avian cavalry), the Ostriches and of course the Riskesting Empire.

21 hours ago, Joerg said:

The Ratite Empire was an early Solar empire that covered the (then temperate) northeast of Genertela, starting in Rinliddi and covering all of North Pent and those parts of Pent not part of Genert's Garden. The Rinliddi people say that they are the heirs of the Ratite Empire, and children of bird gods, but I see a fair chance that the original ratite riders were humanoid birds rather than  ordinary humans, and that there were more than just augners and demibirds in the range of the runners who crossed the savannahs of the Green and early Golden Age.

The info you have provided is all solid. Of course how you wind up with Dragonewt Avilry based on thick boned moas (demibirds)?  As an aside, moas incidentally have bones like demibirds, but obviously evolved from avians.  Did the Dragonewts learn avilry from the Ratite/Riskesting Empire?  Presently we don't know.  It seems fair to suppose that this is likely the best fit of when the Dragonewts might have learned avilry though.

So, we know that Demibirds are not found in the wilds.  They have solid bones and only exist the property of the Dragonewts, and are thus unlike any other bird in Glorantha.  Are they related to the Bird Goddess known as Verk (p8 Fortunate Succession)?  Are Demibirds somehow tied into the Dragonewt path?  When you think about it, they're pretty mysterious.  Does anyone have a clue as to how demibirds emerged in Glorantha?  If the answer is that we know nothing solid, let's propose some answers in case someone else starts asking this question.

On 8/26/2018 at 9:58 AM, The God Learner said:

Only one way to find out. Anyone up for switching Elmal and Yelmalio?

 

Coming from anyone else I'd say no, TGL.  You, however, are the right person to ask that question. 😄

On 5/31/2022 at 5:21 PM, Nick Brooke said:

I think it's just as likely that Argrath can't be arsed to do anything to support that weasel Belvani. He has no long-term interest in Pavis, Prax, the Cradle Valley or their inhabitants: they're just stepping-stones for his return to Sartar.

I must disagree.  Not about Belvani being a weasel, but about Argrath's attitude to New Pavis and Prax.  Argrath is many things but he isn't lazy or disinterested.  New Pavis is Argrath's first stronghold and primary support base in what may (in 1625-6) turn out to be an unsuccessful sally into Dragon Pass.  It is from new Pavis that Argrath gathers the forces of Prax and the region to his White Bull cause.  As his starting stronghold, Argrath will go to great lengths to build a lean mean fighting machine out of New Pavis, much like every successful faction does with its first base.  Yes, there are greater prizes to be won, but without a strong military and economic foundation Argrath will have nowhere to turn in case of an emergency.  When Argrath's forces are routed by Cwim, he is able to rapidly replenish the losses and try again.  You can't do this without a solid organizational foundation.  Much later in his career Argrath is driven back to New Pavis, and is able to win back everything he lost.  You can't do that without having laid down a strong administrative base, a good economy, and a funnel for those resources into your war effort.  I think New Pavis is going to become the "Arsenal of Prax" under Argrath.

On 6/29/2022 at 2:40 AM, soltakss said:

In my Glorantha they follow Yelmalio the Rider

But the Ostrich riders have been in Prax since before "Yelmalio" historically came into the region.  What do they call this deity?  Remember that Yelmalio is only called Yelmalio after Monrogh forms the cult from Elmal worshippers in 1565 after the recovery of the Antesmia statue imsmc.  It is thus extremely unlikely that the Ostrich riders call their light deity Yelmalio.

18 hours ago, David Scott said:

They follow the same Yelmalio that all Praxian Animal nomads follow. Just use the Yelmalio cult in the Core Rules.

So who converted the Ostriches to Yelmalio ?  Remember that Yelmalio is a relatively recent advent in Dragon Pass, brought in by Monrogh to supplant Elmal, and thus break the subservience of Dragon Pass solar worshipers to the Orlanth Pantheon.  The so-called Yelmalios of Mo Baustra (Sun County) actually follow Tharkantus, and likely only started calling their deity Yelmalio due to the need to legitimize themselves with the Lunars.  The Aldryami by comparison worship the Light in the Hills, not Yelmalio, and the Balazarings follow Balazar.  Yes, these deities may be Sons of the Sun, and they may have the similar mechanics to Yelmalio, but to say they are the same deity is God Learnerism.  Just because two deities seem to have similar powers and a similar mythology doesn't mean they are the same deity.  If you go down that line of reasoning you will wind up with the Goddess-Swap experiment, and subsequent catastrophes.

On 6/27/2022 at 6:12 AM, Agentorange said:

This kind of surprised me, we have a Ship handling skill - which implies ships to handle.....

You mis-understand... Ship Handling isn't a skill so much as a perversion...  😝

On 6/27/2022 at 7:51 AM, Jeff said:

No, I don't think he is.

Argrath literally killed all the Gods, on purpose, to usher in an age of humans.  He is also the actual reincarnation of Arkat.  He's unequivocally a superhero by the end imo.

£10 is a small price to pay to secure one's immortal soul.  Perhaps I could interest you in a certain bridge project in the village of Lynbrook while you are here? 😉

One of the biggest hassles at Sacred Time is travelling during Storm Season to get home for the ceremonies.  The roads are packed, and often troubled by weather related problems.  Inns will be full up, and even floor space will be at a premium.  Think Xmas or Chinese New Year.

Then you finally arrive and have to contend with the family dinner table "God's War"... 

So here's a question that has been much on my mind of late.  What version of Yelmalio do the Ostrich tribe of Prax worship?  There are obviously umpteen versions of Yelmalio, each with a different name and regional history, but what version  do the Ostrich people follow?  What do they call their Yelmalio?  Obviously their version is nothing like the version followed in Sun County, as the pygmies haven't chosen to mass ranks of hoplites, but will more likely follow an Ostrich-Kuschile version of the god, more in keeping with their needs and traditions.  Thoughts? 

19 hours ago, Godlearner said:

In this particular case both the Wachaza priest and his allied spirit were captured after sucessful divine interventions (one by each). The priest now has a POW of 6 and his allied spirit is at POW 3.

My party calls that a "power spanking".

On 6/26/2022 at 6:44 PM, Akhôrahil said:

Most of them are in an animal or an item, so it doesn't seem so hard?

Still... Careless... 🙂

*Snortlaugh* Now this is a story that should be epic in the retelling.  How did someone get their Allied Spirit captured?

If you ever hear a fool complain he has too many beasts to care for, raid him.”

Quote from Chuknal Khan (called "He who pulls the whiskers of Basmol") of the Avalanche (Green) Llamas.

On 6/20/2022 at 7:46 PM, SevenSistersOfVinga said:

Let's challenge that.

Challenging what most people can do with a bow by bringing up Lars Andersen videos.  Where have I seen this before?  I would suggest you get yourself off to the Society of Creative Anachronism and do some shooting of your own to get a proper sense of what is possible.  Lars Andersen is a bit of a marvel, a brilliant athlete and bow sportsman, and might be considered something of a hero level archer by Gloranthan standards.  Lars claims that he has recovered techniques from Turkic horse archers and the Plains Tribes of America, and I don't dispute the possibility based on what has been written about them.  They were cultures with a lot of master archers.  In Glorantha we call what Lars does spirit magic like "multimissile".

56 minutes ago, metcalph said:

Developing a sorcerous order is significantly more involved than having one sorcerer turn to a life of crime.  It's like learning how to read and building a university.

I think you have a far more grandiose idea of what a sorcerous order is than I do.  And anyhow, as the saying goes "To level a mountain one must first carry away small stones".  You don't need to build a university, you can start with a rural kindergarten and work your way up over generations of thieves.  Seriously, it is easy enough to make new spells, and not that hard to get a decent level of proficiency with a sorcery spell or two, especially if you are being trained.  The more I think about it, the more I think many Zzaburi may well have their own personal cadre of thieves who do their bidding behind the scenes, much like House Tytalus in Ars Magica. 

56 minutes ago, metcalph said:

This is a bit too rules-talky IMO to be plausible as a motivation for gloranthans (even Malkioni ones).  Lanbril, for example, isn't known for having arbitrary appetites, spirits of retribution and rules.  

Lanbril doesn't have arbitrary appetites?  No rules?  read the cult write up in Common Knowledge for Players more carefully.  Sure, Lanbril has no spirit of retribution listed, but break the rules and see what happens.  I would argue that the lack of a spirit of retribution is further proof of Lanbril's likely sorcerous origins in any case.

56 minutes ago, metcalph said:

I doubt it.  Shamans would be ready suited to being counter-culture magicians in Malkioni society.  We already have an example of a shamanic criminal group in a civilized lands: Black Fang.  They would be more like hedge magicians

In Malkioni lands Shamans are burned at the stake.  While I completely concur that shamanic criminal organizations are and should be a thing, I think that denying a similar opportunity to sorcerers is arbitrary and ill-considered.  Organizations that use sorcery for thieving lie well within the purview of what is possible.