Darius West

On 5/19/2022 at 3:39 PM, metcalph said:

I undersood Jeff to be talking about tactics such as killing prisoners rather than say, raining thunderstones on a lunar patrol that just crossed a river.

Fair enough.  Killing prisoners is definitely involves an honor penalty.

On 5/16/2022 at 10:22 PM, Shiningbrow said:

One thing I would fine annoying about being in Waha is how half of the skill selection to be a Khan aren't on the Cult skills list - no Orate, Scan or Track, and the "another weapon skill" may or may not be a "tribal weapon".

I have an advance copy of RQ:GoG.

So FYI Waha lay members will get half price Ride, Spirit Combat, Scan, Survival (Prax), Track and Tribal weapons.  No love for Orate in the mix apparently.  I would point out that a Noble background gets you +30% Orate and you may follow Waha, so there is clearly a bit of class warfare going on in Prax (just put it on the heap with all the other types of warfare plz).

Initiates add Waha Lore and Worship Waha to the half price list.  Again with no orate.  Clearly "people skills" are not a Praxian priority.

14 minutes ago, French Desperate WindChild said:

I think any where in Dragon pass forest, but what about Balazar or even further ?

I personally think she's Dragon Pass only.  Prax is the wrong kind of wilderness.  I have never heard of her going south of the Line of Death.  She may have appeared in Tarsh, but has likely been hemmed in along with Orlanthi worship.  I think I would let her roam Dagori Inkarth.  I think she's ok for Balazar too.

1 hour ago, davecake said:

Well, no, as the Snakepipe Dancers are a warlock group who use draconic methods acquired by using the Snakepipe to get secrets from a dragon, not a chaos fighting Earth cult.

I was not aware that the Snakepipe Dancers had actually been given stats and background yet.

On 5/17/2022 at 3:07 AM, davewire said:

CoC doesn’t just have to be Lovecraftian horror. T

I agree.  Horror doesn't have to be Lovecraftian, even in CoC.  I also suggested that CoC does indeed have rules for Vampires.  My issue lay elsewhere.  

On 5/17/2022 at 3:07 AM, davewire said:

Searching for ways to survive a powerful entity that is beyond human means by arming one’s self with knowledge and discovering powerful artifacts is very CoC.

In the short form, I agree with this.  In detail, Ravenloft has loads of nasty CR7+ monsters and CoC character are basically zero levelers.  Most D&D monsters could kill a CoC character with a good sneeze.  I mean, 3 rabid rats are probably more than a match for "Lionel the Librarian", let alone a goddamn vampire.  Also, retrofitting plenty of documents/handouts into Ravenloft to make it work for a CoC investigation seems like a lot of work.  Fun work potentially, and the temptation is always to give away too much info.

On 5/17/2022 at 3:07 AM, davewire said:

I’d mainly want to retain the story and setting of Ravenloft. Traversing the castle would be more of an abstract than a dungeon crawl as the investigators search for hidden libraries of arcane knowledge and crypts containing relics and lore. 

IMO, Ravenloft is still an inferior as a setting to 19th century Europe a la Stoker's Dracula.  Why opt for D&D faux Dracula when you could just do CoC Dracula?  The source material for 19th Century London/UK is available in C'thulhu by Gaslight.

That being said I don't think your approach to the material is bad, even if I may seem too critical.  You clearly have something in mind that perhaps I am not quite understanding.

On 5/17/2022 at 3:07 AM, davewire said:

This isn’t a fantasy hack and slash game. A few good monster encounters, maybe with some zombies or other undead, a lesser vampire or two, and Strahd himself would be more than enough for a CoC encounter.

 Two thumbs up for this davewire.  Most CoC characters are zero level by D&D standards.  3 rabid rats will do for your average CoC "Lionel the Librarian" character in about 2 rounds.  Most CoC player spend the game avoiding encounters until they have ransacked the property for handouts and clues and fervently hope they never meet "the monster".  I still worry that you will be stacking too many encounters against them.

On 5/17/2022 at 3:07 AM, davewire said:

If you did want to add in a bit of Lovecraftian horror, I believe that the aloof Dark Powers of Ravenloft from which Strahd draws his power and was transformed could fit in with the themes of the mythos.

Personally, I'd sooner adapt Stephen King's "Salem's Lot" to CoC.  It even has the Book of Eibon in it already.

On 5/17/2022 at 1:19 AM, Tizun Thane said:

Anyway, I don't think bestiality (even sacred) is a good theme for the game 😅

My post was pretty tongue-in-cheek, but when I saw that you had suggested that Epona and Lustful didn't mix in Paganism, I felt I had to question the assertion with truly disgusting historical evidence that not enough people know about because it renders them nauseated, and thus is not considered a fit topic for discussion.  

On the other hand...  A sadistic GM might have fun putting PKs in a situation where they are strongly encouraged to perform such a ceremony and watch how they wriggle out of the ghastly ritual commitment.😁   (Or call the FBI when they don't try)

On 5/15/2022 at 1:55 AM, Jeff said:

Just because a tactic is "accepted" does not mean it is Honorable. There is a lot of pressure from Orlanth, Humakt, Yelmalio, and Yanafal Tarnils for war to be Honorable. But Honorable is not always practical, and in the end immediate need is more pressing than the demands of Honor. And when that happens, you have a choice - compromise your Honor (and get the Passion reduced) or refuse.

Given the rules on RQG p234, how does one lose honor for ambushing?  Ambush isn't specifically mentioned as something you lose honor for doing, and it is hardly cowardice for a small number of Orlanthi to ambush a larger number of Lunars.  You can hardly call Lunars unarmed either, just because their weapons aren't drawn at the start of an ambush.  Nor can the lunars in any way be called guests or call upon hospitality for protection.  In short, there is no honor penalty within the rules as written that applies to ambushing from what I can tell.  Care to elaborate Jeff?  What haven't I understood?

44 minutes ago, Tizun Thane said:

BUT if they want to understand the higher mysteries of Epona, they have to ignore the "call of flesh".

To quote Gerald of Wales (A Norman Christian chronicler):

"There is in a northern and remote part of Ulster, among the Kenelcunil, a certain tribe which is wont to install a king over itself by an excessively savage and abominable ritual. In the presence of all the people of this land in one place, a white mare is brought into their midst. Thereupon he who is to be elevated, not to a prince but to a beast, not to a king but to an outlaw, steps forward in beastly fashion and exhibits his bestiality. Right thereafter the mare is killed and boiled piecemeal in water, and in the same water a bath is prepared for him. He gets into the bath and eats of the flesh that is brought to him, with his people standing around and sharing it with him. He also imbibes the broth in which he is bathed, not from any vessel, nor with his hand, but only with his mouth. When this is done right according to such unrighteous ritual, his rule and sovereignty are consecrated."

Yes, the bestiality part is EXACTLY what it sounds like.  Never assume that we understand those higher mysteries, or that they didn't involve the "call of the flesh".  Now this may have been Christian propaganda, but that's a lustful roll you don't want on your permanent record imo.😅

On 5/16/2022 at 8:13 AM, davewire said:

What are your thoughts? Does this seem possible or am I trying too hard to force a square peg into a round hole? Are there any suggestions on how this could be achieved?

Look, you can do this, but I think you're pushing mud uphill.

If you are going to run a Vampire scenario in CoC, why use Ravenloft at all?  I mean, while it is great at bringing a Vampire aesthetic to D&D, the notion of retrofitting the same setting into CoC seems, well, an odd choice.

Vampires are one of the creatures that Lovecraft didn't actually bother with much in his mythos, and ultimately CoC is about Lovecraft monsters.  He does comver hematophages a little, but not with any depth.  Lovecraft didn't want to rehash Stoker.

Now to be fair, there are write-ups for Vampires for use in CoC, but Strahd is essentially a rip-off of Brahm Stoker's Dracula done for D&D, so why not do the whole Carpathian Transylvanian setting?   I know it is pretty hackneyed, and IRL the woodlands of Transylvania are actually very beautiful and kind of cheery, and not the wolf-haunted misty wilderness you think you have signed on for.  Nevertheless, Stoker has plenty of good lore and a great setting, if you opt for the 19th Century London arc of the story.

In fact there is a CoC scenario pack called The Fungi from Yuggoth which includes a whole Transylvanian scenario without any vampires, that is passable.

Regardless, there is a literal ton of vampire fiction out there to draw upon these days, just be careful not to sparkle too brightly in the sunlight.

That being said, if I were going to translate Ravenloft (the specific D&D product) into CoC I would opt for a real world and possibly even contemporary setting. Consider a failing middle American city like Gary Indiana (already pretty horrific), and I would have the vampiric element actually using gate spells to enter Strahd's demi-plane, and quite possibly some sort of sick twist on things that would keep some of the characters alive, such as Strahd believing them to be reincarnations of his former lovers or favorite minions.  That being said, it will be hard to make Strahd as stat-tough as he is in D&D unless you are very familiar with CoC. 

On 5/15/2022 at 4:54 AM, Rodney Dangerduck said:

This is meaningless.  Issaries, Argan Argar, and Pavis make absolutely no claim to be combat warrior cults.  They provide many other opportunities for PC role play and to let them "shine" in action and missions.

Waha and Yelmalio are presented as "traditional" male oriented warrior cults.

At what point did your initial comment mention warrior cults specifically?  Having read over your first comment, you may have thought you mentioned that you were talking about warrior cults, and it may have been clear in YOUR mind, but you didn't actually include any mention that the cults under discussion had to be war cults.  I mean, no biggie, it's easy to forget things like that when jotting off ideas on a forum...

7 hours ago, davecake said:

If your players want a Chaos fighting Earth cult, they should go into Snakepipe Hollow and awaken Baroshi, then build up his cult. Ideally after bringing Baroshi back to life by heroquesting in the Eleven Lights heroquest. Well, that’s what my players are doing, anyway. 
 

I believe what you are suggesting is what the Snakepipe Dancers of the Sartar Magical Union represent in the boardgame.

On 5/13/2022 at 6:14 AM, icebrand said:

Everyone laughs at yelmalio, but it seems to me that the sun domers run circles around WAHA.

I assume you mean  "worst" in terms of being able to wreak violence (from the way you are writing)? I mean Waha has it all over Issaries, Argan Argar and Pavis in terms of combat power.  Also Waha has Shamans, and that's a big deal.  

5 hours ago, EricW said:

Me bad, probably non-canon - http://www.jane-williams.me.uk/glorantha/vinga/bgor.cfm

Wow, that write-up is ridiculously OP, less canon than cannon.

52 minutes ago, Nick Brooke said:

“What people think about you” is Reputation.

True Nick.  And the more famous you become, the more type-cast you become too.  This can be mitigated by trying to change your image, but that will only lead to being typecast as being mercurial.  People like to label people, and Glorantha is in the bronze age.

On 5/9/2022 at 7:57 PM, Yinkin said:

Are their other heroquests and myths that they could use to support their goals, for example?

What you are suggesting is essentially that your characters are going to have to fight a giant.  As they say in Dark Souls "Prepare to die".

4 hours ago, EricW said:

Doesn’t Barb Gore have some kind of “sense despoiler” ability? I think I remember reading it’s triggered by overt chaos like Broos, not so much by civilised Lunar chaos…

This is the first I've heard of it.  I thought the normal way things were handled is that the crime against the Earth is reported to an Earth temple and the message passed on to the BBGs who go on a rampage from there.

17 hours ago, Jeff said:

Killing prisoners is viewed as deeply dishonourable.

Killing prisoners amounts to a -5% Honor penalty for "attacking an unarmed foe" (RQG p234).  This may well be cumulative per prisoner killed.  Obviously having them killed by torture should carry a higher honor penalty.  So the question becomes, is handing your prisoners over to someone you know will likely mistreat or kill them going to invoke the same penalty? You know, like an axe-happy BBG who has never had any honor.  Remember that a prisoner is in no way a guest and is not due any hospitality.

I would also point out that it is extremely difficult for a resistance movement to keep any but the most valuable prisoners, given that they are normally hiding in an improvised fieldwork without proper jails or reliable supply.  In times of war irl, just because an enemy surrenders doesn't mean the other side have to accept that surrender.  In Glorantha, the normal way to surrender is to shout out how much your ransom is worth, but nobody is obliged to take you up on it.  Anyone who takes that offer of ransom becomes responsible for the prisoner.  Now this is where a guerilla operation like the Orlanthi may need to employ a ransom broker to act as a middle-man between themselves and the Lunars, but really, the risk to the resistance is just too high as they will need to visit the broker and then they can be followed back to their hideout.  In effect, resistance movements are not in a position where they can afford to keep prisoners alive, even if they would like to.

On 5/9/2022 at 7:16 AM, French Desperate WindChild said:

note that "own sacrifice" could be "sacrifice your child, not your finger", I have in mind Carthage for example (reality or propaganda, there were people able to imagine that at this time)

I strongly suspect this was Roman propaganda.  Children weren't so much sacrificed to Baal Hammon as returned to him if they died prematurely or miscarried from what I can tell; less of a sacrifice than a "return to sender".  It is a very controversial area of archaeology and the matter is up for debate still.

7 hours ago, Manu said:

Is there a anti-chaos cult in the Earth Pantheon? Or are they always counting on the husband part (Orlanth, Yelm, ...)

There might have been, if Genert or Tada had lived.

31 minutes ago, Scorus said:

An ambush is not a surprise attack?

For the record, they are literally synonyms, as are ambuscade, bushwhack, dry gulch, and trap, amongst others.  I totally agree.

16 hours ago, Scorus said:

YGMV, but as per Jeff in the links above: The buildup and formation of battle lines is done with the full knowledge of the other side and no surprise attacks are made.

So what happened at the Battle of the Queens when that party of Lunar assassins bushwhacked Kallyr and killed her then?

3 hours ago, icebrand said:

The rules say you can ambush to your heart's content unless the lord of death geases you not to; you see, geases make you a better humakti, but try not become too holy, or else you may find yourself at our god's company.

We are in accord on this point icebrand.  If Humakt hasn't specifically geased you not to ambush, you are completely allowed to try that tactic.

17 hours ago, Scorus said:

Ambushes are an important Orlanthi culture tactic, especially among the resistance, but seem to run directly afoul of the Orlanthi concept of honor. So my question is when an ambush would result in a loss of honor. Two examples:

1) A group of archers in hiding waiting to shoot an enemy group as they come walking along.

2) A fighter that sneaks up behind an enemy that is not yet engaged in the battle and kills them unaware.

The honor rules on RQG p234 don't include any mention of losing honor for surprise attacks.  This would change if you broke hospitality to surprise attack a guest, obviously.  The Red Wedding in GoT would be a major loss for the Frey family by Orlanthi standards, as an example.

4 minutes ago, French Desperate WindChild said:

of course I know what means crapule in french... now the question is how can I translate it in english ? 😛

a villain, yes you can say that. I will not use the term "little shit" for a crapule (well the french literal translation, now, I m not aware of all the senses behind little shit)

for me "une crapule" is really worse than "petite merde / petit merdeux". in both cases despicable, but crapule can do very bad things.

A wonderful exegesis on French slang FDWC, many thanks.👍

Personal loyalties are a very moot point.  Remember that the people who inhabit Boldhome may well come from various tribes and clans and be immigrants.  As to the people in the city, well, is their loyalty to the City or directly to the King or Crown?  Sartar is a kingdom, not a city state.   Furthermore, you can assume that many districts of cities will have what amounts to ethnic Orlanthi tribal enclaves for the various tribes who contribute to making the city work.  For example, there will be clans that run businesses dealing in their produce (beer, cloth, wool metal etc), and which own and rent local real estate to their clan members in the city, or other people.  These will create odd little ghettos of clan and tribal loyalties, with their own feuds and politics.  While you are unlikely to face the formal hospitality customs you might meet in tribal and clan areas, a city has its own cultural norms that will be alien to newcomers.  

People born and raised in an urban environments will be an oddity, as Bronze Age society is rural by a factor of 95%, especially in Sartar.  While the cities represent an agglomeration of capital and production, they really exist to provide goods and services to the rural areas rather than the other way around as it is today.  Cities represent a perpetual market and collection point of wealth, but one which is constantly being redistributed back to rural areas.  Rural areas don't deal much in coins, while cities do, but for this reason, coins tend to stay in cities, and don't circulate into rural areas.  Sick of being cheated, the tribes will set up the means for goods from their people are traded for at fair exchange in their enclaves, often to fill pre-existing contracts.

As such, it is possible to have a passion for one's city, but more likely that an  city dwelling character will be loyal to their Guild, their district Ring member,  their gang, their King, etc.  There is a lot more to be loyal to in a city, but loyalty to one's tribe or clan will mean a sort of ethnic enclave ghetto exists and that holds the character's loyalty.

I would draw people's attention to the most recent iterations of the Warhammer Fantasy rules, which is one of RQ's children in many ways imo. I played it at a con before Covid and was pleasantly surprised. It is intrinsically a percentile system, but the percentiles are also kept low.  It introduces a system of ratios so that a higher skill has a distinct advantage over a lower one, and whoever hit last has an advantage, indicating that they have back-footed their opponent.

I could see a situation where we could incorporate free reactions on non-special rolls of sufficient quality. For example if one character rolls under half their skill, but not a special or a crit, while the other character doesn't, the character who rolls well is able to incorporate a terrain based reaction maneuver.  In flat bland territory this might be a shield push a kick or a head-butt, but in a forest it might involve using a branch in tension to spring at the opponent, or a push off slippery rocks, or dirt in the eyes etc.

5 hours ago, EricW said:

As for Elusu, I don't think Elusu gave up being a "Little Shit" just because of hanging around with Argrath. I 

I have played it that Elusu's nickname comes from the fact that she is fond of leaving little shits in places to prank people.  I believe that the term "Crapule" which means "little shit" is a French term for a villainess.  French Desperate WindChild, please confirm or refute this, if you would be so kind 😅.

On 5/8/2022 at 12:55 AM, Jeff said:

Yep. Imagine that diaspora going to Nochet, Whitewall, New Pavis, Boldhome, Wolf Pirates, etc. Even a few go to the Lunar Empire. And many end up influencing Sartar like the Chans, Leika Black Spear, Tarkala the Lover, etc. I suspect this is the origin story for many who end up in the Sartar Magical Union.

I'm glad to see the origins of the Sartar Magical Union being approached this way Jeff.  It makes a lot of sense, and I don't think I have heard it expressed this way before.   Good stuff, very lore friendly.