Glorion

2 hours ago, David Scott said:

In adding Discorporation to all assistant shaman, it allows assistant shaman an important activity:

• The assistant can Discorporate for 15mins and practice all the things needed to become a shaman on their own (not training with the shaman). 15 mins is an ideal time not to get into too much trouble. If the assistant is a shamanic cult member they can also get hold of Extension - Daka Fal, Waha and Yelm all give access to it if required in the core rules.

Is that your idea, or something that is in one of the drafts for GoG? If it is, that's not *precisely* what I've been suggesting, but amounts more or less to the same thing. I'd be quite happy with that.

13 hours ago, Shiningbrow said:

Personally, I dislike the idea of a shaman having a 100% chance to discorporate anywhere anytime.

A teachable skill makes a whole lot more sense.

But then so does a special ability given when the fetch is awakened... Something that perhaps was the intent, but never specified.

It's not a "special ability." If you have a fetch, part of you is already on the spirit plane. "Discorporation" for shamans is merely switching places with your fetch, and is not in fact "discorporation" at all. If you want to call that an ability, fine, as long as it's clear that it isn't an Ability. Perhaps it should require a successful Meditation roll, that would make sense. Which unless there is a fumble, only determines how long it takes for the shaman to switch places with the fetch.

7 minutes ago, PhilHibbs said:

It's described in the rules. As part of the ritual, they become discorporate. It is not described any more than that, and I don't think it needs to be.

The ritual doesn't really begin until *after* they discorporate, technically. Actually I agree with you, as opposed to all the posters here who think that a Discorporation runespell or hazia or something is necessary. I'm simply giving a technical reason for no further description in the rules for precisionists. Phil, if you don't think that's necessary, just read over this thread. Worse yet, there are claims here that Chaosium agrees with them and that when GoG comes out, assistant shamans will be required to learn an otherwise totally useless runespell. I hope that is not  true.

On 8/5/2020 at 11:20 AM, lordabdul said:

I'm OK with the idea that assistants can't spend as much time in the Spirit World as a full shaman, except for those who spend a lot of energy (i.e. Rune Points) for it. There's a balance between "assistant shamans should only have a fraction of the powers of a shaman" and "assistant shamans need to be satisfyingly playable". That line probably varies from one GM/group to another, of course. One hour of spirit travel seems OK to me for assistants. Two hours at the very most. Maybe shamans have a special version of the Discorporate Rune spell that has a base duration of 1 hour, or 1d2 hours, or whatever, that they only teach to their assistants. There are many many ways to go about this... we'll see what Chaosium picks when the big books come out.

Which still leaves the problem of how they can manage to become full shamans. I cannot imagine the ritual to become a shaman taking less than a day. Basically the idea that assistant shamans get by on discorporating by rune spells, an idea not mentioned *at all* in the RQG rules, is a rules crutch to be avoided that would annoy players. If the big books when they come out throw that in, I suspect most GMs and players will quietly ignore them and chalk that up to Chaosium incompetence. Likewise, as it clearly states in the RQG rules that shamans because they are shamans can discorporate without difficulty, making that an Ability or requiring die rolls is a rules complication that GMs and players would dislike and ignore. Much better to use an idea such as mine, namely that due to the assistant bond shamans have the natural ability to bring *bonded apprentices* along when they travel to the spirit plane, and that assistant shamans after at least a year of training "*might,* if they are sufficiently powerful and charismatic, be able to get onto the spirit plane themselves after days of prayer and meditation, and due to the apprentice bond, their shamans will know whether they can or not. This concept has the tremendous advantage of precisely modeling the shamanism rules in the RQG book *as written,* without having to change anything.

1 hour ago, lordabdul said:

Going on adventures for almost a week every season (6 days for 5 seasons) takes up pretty much 10% of the year, so you're still good there. It might not be enough if you play very long adventures, or if you play in "real time"... in which case you have to make the shaman NPC feature more prominently in a majority of adventures, so that "adventuring" does not equate "being away from the shaman". The entire idea of playing an assistant shaman without having said shaman feature prominently seems like missing the point to me anyway, even if you follow the "one adventure per season" structure, so I don't think it would be a problem for me.

Like I said before, yes, the short duration of the Rune spell is still a problem IMHO (and why I would prefer the shamanic ability route). I had misunderstood what you meant about sacrificing POW: it's necessary in order to get an RP pool big enough to spend multiple of them on Extension. So yes, I understand now, apologies.

Rune magic isn't divine in RQG -- that's an RQ3 concept. In RQG, Rune magic can be handed down from spirit cults too, for instance. It's just that it's most commonly given by deities.

The way I understand it is:

• Sorcery is manipulating the Runes directly yourself. As with many DIY endeavours, there's a steep learning curve... but once you're past it, you can do cool stuff not many others can. That's the one that should effectively be called Rune Magic  
• Spirit Magic is putting something inside you that can cast the magic for you, so you don't have to it yourself. It's effectively Parasitic Magic or Gadget Magic.
• Rune Magic is joining a commune where someone/something powerful has cast the magic ahead of time (in some cases... literally!), and lend it to you in return for benefits like worshipping. The community's centre could be a deity, or a powerful spirit, or even a hero maybe. It's effectively Communal Magic, or Spell Trading On Steroids.

 

Seems to me, an assistant shaman strong in the Spirit Rune who knows the right sorcery spell to Discorporate, and I refuse to believe that the Godlearners and/or the Lunars never created one, would have a huge advantage, by far the best way to go from assistant shaman to real shaman if you assume, as the RQG rules in the book *do not* assume, that you have to do something special to enable assistant shamans to discorporate for learning purposes. Ick.

The whole spirit of the rules as written is that it just isn't a problem, nothing to worry about. I've provided I think the best explanation for that. Inventing a new shamanic ability, which every shaman who plans to ever have an apprentice would *have* to take despite it being highly unimportant otherwise, is just making the life of the players more difficult, not MGF. And a PC shaman who refused to take it for powergaming reasons would lose a lot of respect from the community.

Yeah, there are spirit cults that have rune spells, but do any have Extension? Even forgetting how much of a drain on POW that would be, it may be simply impossible. And giving them Extension is the worst crutch of all, it really makes no sense for spirit cults to get Extension, except as a bad crutch to patch a hole in the rules in a way that makes no Gloranthan sense..

And no, a week adventuring is one sixth of a season not 10%, and few serious adventures take less than a week. Multiweek adventures are pretty common, I've run several. The way I get around that in our campaign with the trickster shaman I'm creating is that the shaman is sending the apprentice on a mission with the party, including contacting trickster spirits, and has arranged for some shamans in Prax where the party is headed to give him a bit of training. But he is going to get a whole lot less training than he would otherwise. Fortunately as rolled up he is almost qualified to take the test right away, but the new GM objects to the idea of instant shamanhood and sees no reason why said shaman would go off to Prax and abandon all other responsibilities just to train an apprentice, shamans do have more important things to do. And he is right.

On 7/31/2020 at 3:00 PM, lordabdul said:

 

I'm not sure what you're arguing for, here? Yes, belonging to more than one cult is expensive, and yes spending your POW like crazy will reduce your chances. So... err, don't do that? Or maybe (if you started late on the shamanic path) it means you'll be an assistant for a couple more years than someone who starts at a young age? I really don't see a problem here.

The only problem I see is the duration one, where an assistant using the Discorporation Rune spell only gets to have fun for 15min unless they spend points in Extension, in addition to spending additional points for going farther than 5km. That's bound to make any field trip very expensive but hey, maybe that represents some in-world reality of shaman apprenticeship that I'm not aware of.

 

Being as it it very difficult for an assistant shaman even to adventure at all, should be spending 90% of time with the shaman, being an assistant for many years is problematic if intended as a PC not an NPC. What's more, a low powered shaman who manages to make the rolls is going to end up with a remarkably dimunitive and loseable fetch. In practical play, any PC assistant shaman is going to have to avoid sac'ing for rune points at all costs, seems to me. I see no reason to have to subject players to that, definitely not MGF, especially since the idea that to become a shaman you have to be a divine magician too doesn't feel right anyway. Or hey, maybe there's a sorcery spell that discorporates you, then the duration problem goes away... That the assistant shaman has to sacrifice some 3-4 points of POW just to get Extension for extended learning expeditions to the spirit plane is downright cruel. Much better just to assume that due to the apprentice bond, the shaman can take the assistant along on trips to the spirit plane for teaching purposes.

9 hours ago, David Scott said:

An assistant shaman will likely join at least one spirit cult/cult of their teacher, if not more over time. As with all spirit cults, the assistant shaman will get access the to the other rune spells. If you want to run cult-less shaman in Glorantha, I am unsure they exist as power comes with building spirit cults. 

Let's imagine that an assistant shaman has joined the spirit cult of Kolat for 1 POW, they then choose a rune spell, let's say the first is Discorporation 1pt. Kolat has another 4 spells, 2 are summon/dismiss elemental, one a control elemental, the other a 1pt special. So to use all at maximum thats 3+3+2+1+1 = 7 rune points, between 5 spells. The assistant shaman can keep buying Kola rune points, but there are no more spells. As Rune points pools are per cult, they can keep buying Kolat rune points up to their Expanded CHA. 

A Wind Child would be an initiate of Orlanth as well as a Kolat shaman. Your clearly using your own Glorantha, so we aren't using the same rules.

Its shamans, not assistant shamans, who get expanded CHA. An assistant shaman who buys 7 rune points is very unlikely to pass the test the first year.

9 hours ago, David Scott said:

An assistant shaman will likely join at least one spirit cult/cult of their teacher, if not more over time. As with all spirit cults, the assistant shaman will get access the to the other rune spells. If you want to run cult-less shaman in Glorantha, I am unsure they exist as power comes with building spirit cults. 

Let's imagine that an assistant shaman has joined the spirit cult of Kolat for 1 POW, they then choose a rune spell, let's say the first is Discorporation 1pt. Kolat has another 4 spells, 2 are summon/dismiss elemental, one a control elemental, the other a 1pt special. So to use all at maximum thats 3+3+2+1+1 = 7 rune points, between 5 spells. The assistant shaman can keep buying Kola rune points, but there are no more spells. As Rune points pools are per cult, they can keep buying Kolat rune points up to their Expanded CHA. 

A Wind Child would be an initiate of Orlanth as well as a Kolat shaman. Your clearly using your own Glorantha, so we aren't using the same rules.

Once you attain shamanhood, then POW is easy to get and joining various spirit cults is a good move. An assistant shaman has to conserve POW to be able to meet the test, if she joins more than her original cult, besides that being expensive due to double tithing, that reduces her chance of passing the test. A Wind Child will be an initiate of Orlanth. She could certainly be an initiate of Kolat as well, but that costs an extra point of POW as well as the double tithing. If she wants to control and dismiss elementals, makes more sense at her level to just learn the spirit spells. I see nothing in the RQG rules or published materials that means you get two for the price of one. Kolat is a brother of Orlanth, not an aspect.

19 hours ago, PhilHibbs said:

It's not the same thing at all. The vast majority of characters are going to end up with more RP than they have spells. I suppose you could rule that once you have filled your CHA limit of RP then you can't learn any more spells, but I wouldn't rule it that way. I'm not sure what a strict reading of the rules would imply, nor do I care.

That's not a "ruling," it says so in the rules quite clearly and unambiguously. If you want to remove that rule through your own house rule, I'd be the last to object, but it confuses matters when you don't say so. After your campaign has been going on for years, yes, people are probably going to sac for more rune points even though that doesn't get them any spells, if they have nothing better to use the spare POW for. Or just keep the POW, especially if they want to get up to POW 18 and stay there to be god talkers or whatever. Given that POW determines luck rolls, the most important characteristic roll applicable to almost everything, as well as resistance to magic, sac'ing for a rune spell and point is always a big decision. I have my players make luck rolls all the time, and they are usually more important than any other, for obvious reasons. My campaign has been going on for a year and none of the players are even near filling out their CHA.

15 hours ago, Shiningbrow said:

So, if the assistant has to sac for the Rune Spell, then it also means they might only be travelling (for 15 minutes) perhaps once per season.... And limited to 5ks.

Is this what is wanted for an assistant to learn the paths of the spirit world?

And, of course, you can't go through the whole becoming a shaman ritual in 15 minutes, unless another rules crutch is invented to get around that.

14 hours ago, Shiningbrow said:

But we're at the crux of the problem again... What's the roll to discorporate? (Without using drugs... Although, I imagine some traditions for use them regularly)

And, after they've done it once, are you suggesting they can keep using that same roll every other time?

It's unfortunate that the book makes it seem like it's automatic for the shaman - no roll involved. And that, in turn, makes it look like an ability (not a skill, and definitely not a spell)... Which must be gained somewhere somehow.

The POW+CHA is merely to convince the shaman, and not directly related to the actual training or practice (although high in both is really required for a good shaman).

Either they can do it after a year's training and days of meditation or they can't. Their shaman will know. So the roll is the POW+CHA. If the apprentice can do it, then the shaman is convinced the apprentice is ready, if not not. The apprentice is not convincing the shaman, not seducing or orating or fast talking the shaman. Rather the shaman either thinks the apprentice is ready or isn't. This BTW fits perfectly with the actual wording in the RQG rules, without unnecessary doodads like runespells or Hazia or new Abilities to get in return for a taboo to annoy the players with. For a full shaman, yes it is automatic and should be. A shaman *is* someone who has a fetch, has an ongoing presence on the spirit plane, and therefore can send his soul there with no difficulty. If the apprentice succeeds in the POW+CHA roll, presumably she *will* become a full shaman, the ritual as written really can't fail, the question is how powerful is the shaman who comes out of it.

12 hours ago, David Scott said:

Discorporate is not a common Rune spell, but has the Magic rune as its designator, page 317:

(Which merely means the Magic rune can be used to cast it. Doesn't mean just anyone can cast it-JH)

An Orlanthi assistant shaman would be a member of the Kolat spirit cult, and use the Air rune. However the Rune is not used in activating this ritual, meditation is, so is irrelevant anyway.

(He could be, but our Wind Child shaman, like most Wind Children, is an initiate of Orlanth Thunderous, which works nicely but does not provide Discorporate. I'm shifting over to player, and my character will be a trickster shaman initiated to Eurmal. BTW, that is in honor of my old trickster shaman Jirenx. I was one of Sandy's original playtesters for the original RQ3 playtest. Jirenx died in a particularly humorous fashion.-JH http://www.seiyuu.com/okamoto/writing/campaign_log_2_0.pdf?fbclid=IwAR0epdeAt-1RrTQIG2K_y8BhZRDJV1nRze9_IvKtzVo4aENoEmTU1tbRmeo)

The Horned Man doesn't give any magic and has no cult. In the above case, the assistant shaman when joining Kolat would receive Discorporate as the first rune spell. Remember, initiation ritual costs 1 POW and give auto access to all common magic. Spirit cults rarely have any common magic, but as per page 275:

So not even the Horned Man? The shaman joins any ol' spirit cult. and get Discorporate and nothing else. A pure, clumsy rule crutch to annoy players with, reduce MGF, and add nothing whatsoever to the game.

12 hours ago, David Scott said:

What's your reference for this?  I've been using the limit is on Rune points as per page 313: and the Expanded Charisma rules for shaman on page 357.

Rune spells, rune points, picky picky, amounts to the same thing. You are just saying what I said with different wording.

5 hours ago, Shiningbrow said:

The Discorporate Others is a nice ability, which would mean that only a dedicated tribal shaman is likely to have it (especially if it's only given by the tribal totem for tribal taboos), and thus means you wouldn't have lots of pseudo-shamans running around teaching others how to discorporate (e.g., Discorporation spell).

The issue I see with the one week of fasting, meditation etc is that the proto-shaman then only knows how to do it after a week of fasting and meditating under the watchful gaze of the teacher.

IRL, some people will have an Out Of Body experience first time, and then never again... others will spend months (years) and never have one. (Sure, Earth is less magical). So, one single week *alone* isn't really sufficient to make one an expert who can discorporate at will..

The mechanic of it being an ability works well both thematically and for the rules lawyers. And, without the time and cult limitations the Rune Spell brings with it.

After a week? No. After a year of intensive training, an assistant shaman *may* be able to discorporate after days and days of fasting, meditation and prayer. Or may not be, might need another year or more of training (modeled by that POW+CHA roll). Nobody who isn't a shaman or an apprentice shaman ready to meet the Horned Man should be able to discorporate self without dangerous artificial aids like hazia. Discorporate Others as another Ability a full shaman can pay a taboo for would be something else altogether, totally separate and a good idea. IMHO a shaman with that Ability who is training an apprentice *would not* use that Ability to get the shaman in training onto the heroplane to meet the Horned Man, as that is something the would be shaman needs to accomplish though his/her own spiritual abilities.

Getting our assistant shaman onto the spirit plane in this fashion is not as bad an idea as doing it with a Rune spell, but still not a good idea. Getting onto the spirit plane to meet the Horned Man is to be struggled for, not handed to you on a silver platter by either a deity or your mentor. 

On 7/28/2020 at 9:40 AM, David Scott said:

And that is what it will say in the upcoming Gods of Glorantha (as I said previously). Although they still have to pay the usual cost to learn spell, which is not a problem as when they become shaman they can use the point to power other Rune spells. The spell isn't wasted as there's no limit on Rune spells.

David, I hope not, because that would create another hole in the rules requiring another clumsy fix. Discorporate is *not* a common rune spell! So either they'd have to make it one, highly problematic indeed just plain wrong, or the apprentice would have to join Horned Man or some such to be able to get it, having to sacrifice two points of POW not one. Definitely not MGF. Especially since probably most actual played shamans, like the Wind Child shaman in my campaign, are Orlanthi shamans due to most of the material published so far being Sartarite. And Orlanth definitely doesn't have Discorporate, and shouldn't.

Also, there definitely is a limit on rune spells, though a pretty generous one for full shamans. Your CHA, plus your fetch's CHA.

On 7/28/2020 at 6:14 AM, Akhôrahil said:

I think this is a problem of a kind. A game that's constructed the way RQG is tells you how activities in the world are performed using the rules, such as Discorporation. If you handwave this away and say that the shaman can always bring the apprentice, then the next question becomes "Oh, so shamans can bring other people along? How many? This might be useful!" Internal consistency of the rules matters in a game of this type. It's part of MGF that the rules actually model the world in a simulationist game, and having to handwave is bad and against the design objectives.

The sensible fix instead would be to say that all apprentice shamans receive the Discorporation spell as a known rune-spell for free (or if you're feeling stingy, as mandatory first rune spell). Or just that they can discorporate the same way shamans can (but never should on their own, as this is super dangerous).

Yeah, I don't like the idea of shamans just randomly bringing *anybody* along. Given the profound intensity of the apprentice bond, that they can bring their apprentice (and I don't think a shaman can ever have more than one apprentice) with them to the spirit plane makes sense to me. Handing out runespells to shamans and their apprentices merely to fix a hole in the rules I find distasteful. And the ability to discorporate should not be simply a gift to the apprentice, whether or not sac'ing a point of POW is necessary. It needs to be struggled for, and a year of training followed by days of fasting, meditation and prayer in a cave definitely has the right Gloranthan feel.

On 7/28/2020 at 9:50 AM, Akhôrahil said:

At this point, you have to wonder if you're playing the right game, though. There seems to be little point of having a heavy, detailed rules system if it's not being used because it can't cover the activities the characters do....

True, which is why I saw a hole in said detailed rules system and came up with what I think is a nice plug.

On 7/27/2020 at 9:36 PM, Shiningbrow said:

It could be an ability given (free of charge) after the apprentice has done the cave thing... Or perhaps the actual ability is that the Shaman can get Discorporate Others as a paid ability, and discorps the apprentice and takes them up to the Horned Man, and then the appreciate continues alone, getting the ability to discorporate themselves along the way.

In.that way, a tribe can have multiple shamans, but only a few able to effectively teach all the new ones. A tribe with only one capable shaman is a very poor tribe. And losing that one person who can fight (and talk with) the spirits would be very bad. 

But, having lots of people doing it also isn't helpful to the tribe. (And runs the risk of one of the apprentices leaving with all the knowledge)

But again, not being able to take other tribe members along on a journey seems to be not quite right... 

So, Discorporate Others makes sense, and fixes multiple problems in one go (and can thus allow for Discorporate Self)

Ability to discorporate after the cave is exactly what I'm suggesting. I see no need to add a whole new Discorporate Others ability for this purpose. It is simpler to just assume that the apprentice bond enables the shaman to bring his apprentice along with him to the spirit plane. The ability to discorporate others *in general,* not just the shaman's solitary apprentice whom he spends so much of his time and effort training and to whose soul he is intimately connected, could indeed be a special Discorporate Others ability, which some shamans might perhaps want to accept a taboo for.

23 hours ago, MJ Sadique said:

👍👍👍

It's Sooo TRUE ! 🤣🤣🤣

RQ always hold the palms in hosting rules mongers and House-rulers. (I'm part of the mass too).

Glorion ... today you see a green T-shirt and the color does not please you. I can assure you one thing ... when the time come, you will also see that this T-shirt is not green it's a magnificent Blue-Face Shamanic color. (I surely merit a big stick on my head for this ...). But I can understand your actual you and I found a loopholes (hum.. humm) in the rules to satisfy the "I-don't-want-a-rune-spell-to-discorporate" groups : CHA4029/Spirit Combat Fumble 96-98 : No-a-shaman-guy, the spirit combatant’s body and spirit separate (combatant discorporate).

Now you have your green T-shirt rules ! you want to discorporate without being a shaman nor use rune spell !!! Problem-solved 😇

Eh. I'm an old guard RQ'er and me and everyone in my group have been playing since the '80s. Every last one of my players is a rules lawyer who will argue anything and everything at the drop of the hat. But anyway, YCWV (do I have to spell that out)?

BTW, if my interpretation is adopted, GMs whose players are not veteran rules lawyers like mine who know the whole corpus and every word of the official rules forwards and backwards can simply disregard the whole issue, not required annoyed wannabe shamans to sacrifice for a spell they don't want to sacrifice for and have no use for, and simply never even mention the whole issue to them at all, ever. Now, isn't that MGF?

1 hour ago, PhilHibbs said:

You don’t need any background to just not worry about something that is not a problem. Saying “but how does the assistant discorporate” and bringing the game to a halt over the question is entirely unnecessary. It honestly never occurred to me until this thread. It happens, it’s part of the ritual.

Well sure, but large numbers of both GMs and players are rules mongers who are not satisfied with anything if it doesn't work according to the rules. Even on this thread, half of the posters seem to think that assistant shamans need to learn the Discorporate rune spell, and now you have posters inventing a brand new shamanic ability to gain a taboo for. I have provided a reassuring practical justification to satisfy those of us (self included) who are not satisfied with something that looks like a glitch in the rules and want it to be just part of the ritual (the first part, the days long cave meditation) in a way that works ruleswise, while avoiding unnecessary annoying complications that just make life harder for the players and don't feel shamanic anyway.

On 7/25/2020 at 8:57 AM, Shiningbrow said:

The one thing I disagree with here is the idea that the skill/ability to discorporate only at the end of the year.. I think many are saying that it should either be a skill learned a lot earlier in the training, or an ability given by the Bad Man... (or at least on that quest somewhere).

Achieving stable, regular discorporation is a skill in this world... Drugs initially help with unstable spirit journeys. Getting out is easy. Controlling it is not.

The idea that it's a skill learned a lot earlier is possible. I prefer the idea that your shaman can Discorporate you due to the apprentice bond, and takes you to the Spirit Plane to train you. However, that it's an ability the Bad Man or the Horned Man gives you doesn't work, as you have to Discorporate to meet them on your spirit quest for shamanism first.

1 minute ago, Glorion said:

Discorporation for the shaman doesn't cost a rune point, the shaman just does it. It's not a spell, it's something all shamans know how to do. Indeed, just go ahead and do it and don't worry about the technical rules details is, in practice, what I suggest. It does *not* thank goodness say anywhere in the rules that an assistant shaman needs to know the Discorporation rune spell.

I merely gave a "proper" rules justification for not needing it, namely that the ability to discorporate oneself after days and days of fasting and meditation is something that it is possible to gain after a year of thorough training in the ways of the shaman--though not certain, your shaman will know if you have attained that (that POW+CHA roll). The idea that a shaman, who isn't necessarily even a worshipper or initiate of a deity, needs to get a rune point from a deity of some sort in order to become a shaman in the first place is sad and totally against the spirit of the rules, whether or not it matches the technical details in the RQG book.

YGMV of course. If you really want to require all shamans in your Glorantha to be initiates of a divine cult go for it. If you want all shamans to be hazia addicts, go for that too. This is my house rule in my campaign.

On 7/23/2020 at 10:46 AM, David Scott said:

 

They don't, they just play it as it is. I think there's too much overthinking in a lot of this. My experience is that we just get on with the game, tiny nuances of the rules never come up. I've had a few people do the shaman's initiation and we just play the game. It runs like the example above.

The rulebook doesn't let you start as a shaman, that occupation is missing. But as an assistant shaman at step 6, just don't join a cult. You won't get any rune points unless you join some spirit cults - do that, up to 3 (to spread your spells). Decide what skills are important to those spirits at 20/15/10% to those then spread the Cult Lore (deity) +15%, Worship (deity) +20%, Meditate +5%. around the spirit cults you've chosen. etc.

 

Discorporation for the shaman doesn't cost a rune point, the shaman just does it. It's not a spell, it's something all shamans know how to do. Indeed, just go ahead and do it and don't worry about the technical rules details is, in practice, what I suggest. It does *not* thank goodness say anywhere in the rules that an assistant shaman needs to know the Discorporation rune spell.

I merely gave a "proper" rules justification for not needing it, namely that the ability to discorporate oneself after days and days of fasting and meditation is something that it is possible to gain after a year of thorough training in the ways of the shaman--though not certain, your shaman will know if you have attained that (that POW+CHA roll). The idea that a shaman, who isn't necessarily even a worshipper or initiate of a deity, needs to get a rune point from a deity of some sort in order to become a shaman in the first place is sad and totally against the spirit of the rules, whether or not it matches the technical details in the RQG book.

Actually, the idea that assistant shamans can use the Discorporation spell to meet the Horned Man and go through the ritual to become a shaman is simply wrong. Why? Because it only lasts 15 minutes. Q.E.D.

Hazia, that works more or less. The Discorporation spell does not.

On 7/15/2020 at 8:35 PM, lordabdul said:

Using house rules is one thing, but disagreeing is another: as per RAW the Discorporate Rune spell is "self" only, and the shaman's Discorporation power only talks about the shaman's own spirit.  It's probably MGF indeed, however, to allow the shaman to use the Discorporate Rune spell to discorporate their assistant (so not for free, and not with the same freedom as the shamanic ability). I probably wouldn't allow it for anybody else but YMMV and all that.

IMHO, shaman assistants need to buy and have the Discorporate Rune spell for the same reason university students need to buy textbooks and cram on topics they will never use again in their career    You need to discorporate for your shamanic exam, too. Better get a bit of experience under your belt by doing it a few times before then.

For shamans to use of all things divine magic to discorporate just plain doesn't feel right to me. What if a shaman simply isn't in a divine cult at all? Using the Discorporation runespell for this key task is a crutch used to cover a hole in the rules, and a bad one. Shamans are not professsors, and their assistant are not college students. If it is explicitly stated somewhere that this is how it's done, as far as I know it hasn't beem, that was a minor mistake on Chaosium's part, to be ignored. Not the only one.

On 7/19/2020 at 8:24 AM, soltakss said:

Yes, but what does that mean?

Is the Assistant shaman taken on a Spirit Journey and shown what to do? Does the shaman sit the Assistant down and carefully explain what would happen when Discoporate?

Clearly, they have to be taken on a Spirit Journey. Verbal explanations of Spirit Travel are worthless, you have to feel it in your soul. Which means that the shaman has to be able to take an assistant with him onto the spirit plane if he discorporates. The deep spiritual assistant bond is what makes that possible, which otherwise it is not. However, the shaman is not going to do that for the assistant when it is time for the assistant to meet the Horned Man, the assistant must be able to discorporate his/her self. After a year of training and being taken on Spirit Journeys and days of meditation, fasting and prayer, the assistant can do this, if the shaman knows the assistant is ready (measured by that POW+CHA roll).