Glorion

On 12/18/2019 at 11:03 AM, Joerg said:

There are few groups in Peloria that don't remember ancestors who ruled over the known world and take immense pride from that while going through their squalid oppression, selling off their children for the next meal. (Ok, at least not as the next meal...

Except that the lower classes , per Greg, have a higher standard of living than anywhere else in Glorantha, due to the Lunar Empire actually getting things organized for once, and some very useful Lunar magics. Even the slaves, if not victim to particular mistreatments, probably eat better than Orlanthi thralls.

1 hour ago, Rodney Dangerduck said:

For the entire day?  Praying in Church?

Like on St. Crispins Day?  Oops, the common soldiers fought Agincourt instead.

Praying in church? Heck no. Dancing and feasting in the fields, to the annoyance of the feudal lords. An excuse not to do any work. Soldiers ignored saint's days as suicidal during an actual war, and if no enemy soldiers around, pillaging, looting and sacking cities was more fun, besides being the main way that large bodies of soldiers could be fed and paid, as taxation had largely not been invented yet.

2 hours ago, AndreJarosch said:

Avalon Hill dropped it. 

The thing never made it to serious discussions about publication with Avalon Hill I don't think. I was running the playtest version which I'd gotten access to, but it wasn't really a playtest, it was simply my house campaign, as I preferred its rules to RQ3 rules. I did participate in the email discussion forum about it Chaosium set up, and contributed my own suggestions for new sorcery rules, which weren't adopted (and none of the PC's in my campaign were sorcerors, it was your usual Orlanthi Dragon Pass and Prax campaign, including a lot of stuff from the published RQ3 materials). I posted them elsewhere on this blog. The final breakdown between Avalon Hill and Chaosium actually happened after the RQ4 fiasco ended, I think.

10 hours ago, Akhôrahil said:

If you just want to be the best farmer you can be, worship Barntar. If you want to be the complete Orlanthi male, worship Orlanth.

9 hours ago, Thaz said:

I'm with you. Farmers will be Barntar or Ernaldan and Earth rune followers. But this brings us to the nature of Orlanthi everyday folk. Are they farmers? Or are they more akin to Crofters. A little farming, a little hunting, a little crafting, a little bit of raiding, a little bit of foraging, a little bit of herding cattle and sheep and pigs out in the woods and hills.  I think some may be Farmers but a lot are more akin to small holders. A small garden plot for the stead but then larger communal lands. When it comes time to sow and plough then yes of course Barntar comes to the fore (sorry I don't buy the million sub cults and Orlanth the Ploughman) and his fellow clansman follow his lead. To me the average Orlanthi is a bit of a generalist and knocks about doing what takes his fancy/need that day. I might go hunting or I might not. Or I might go chop some firewood or I might not. Or I might go pick some mushrooms and gather acorns or I might not. Or I might help the Mrs weed the home fields....or I might not. Or I might go and have a long talk with my neighbour and perhaps go raid those damn Orleving...or I might not. And that strikes me as very Air Rune. 

 

Those who want to be that sort of economically inefficient generalists are liable to be Orlanth initiates. The farmers, generally more prosperous and living better, might initiate to Barntar, or might simply be content to marry an Ernaldan wife with Bless Crops, and just be a lay member of everything and not have to pay 10% tithes, a very serious matter. 

Some discussion here I see of real world models for things like minor holy days. Be it noted that in medieval Catholic Europe, you had about 115 saint and other holy days per year, during which the serfs in the countryside would celebrate the saint instead of working in the fields, and craftsmen in the cities likewise. One of the major reasons why the German nobles and princes and the merchants in the cities were so enthused for Luther, as Lutheranism abolished all that. The Calvinists took that further, even abolishing Christmas, seeing it as a pagan holiday in Christian disguise. In Puritan New England, anyone trying to celebrate Christmas was likely to be put in the stocks and decorated with thrown rotted vegetables by his neighbors, and suspected of being a witch.

I actually ran a campaign in it. Basically, it wasn't terribly different from RQ3 in feel as a game. RQ3 rules were refined a bit, they overall seemed like improvements to me, but yes, were a bit more complex, something I don't particularly mind. It died because the main author got into very serious personal legal trouble, so Chaosium dropped it like a hot potato, not wanting to be associated with that.

56 minutes ago, Joerg said:

I would rather put pressure on the attendance to the service. You need 50 participants for a shrine rite, etc., who take the time for the service, or you could have participants being zealous enough to pour in way more than the required two MP, making up for defective numbers by more magic and time put into the rite.

If your players can sponsor a crowd to stand with them during a weekly holy day (feasting them, etc.), they should get the rune point refill. They might attract a group of dependents if they do this more than once, with all the fun that dependents can give the evil GM...

The poor and destitute in the clan/village/town will usually jump at the opportunity to get fed in exchange for some magical energy while no other opportunity to better their fate shows up. That's how the Seven Mothers with their soup kitchen make inroads, too...

Actually, that sounds pretty good to me, not that different from my notions actually, rather putting them in roleplaying rather than rules mechanics terms, which is good. Be it noted that this would be very hard to pull off right in the middle of an adventure, but players creative enough to pull something like that off I would certainly want to reward, and not just with runepoint refills. 

46 minutes ago, jajagappa said:

It will depend on how you wish to describe this process, but I don't think of it as the deity "teaching" you.  Rather, it is you learning to "be" the deity, much like a mini-avatar.  The closer you are to emulating the deity, the more you can manifest and channel the deity's power yourself.  This means walking through the deity's stories within the Gods world during the holy day ceremonies.  

Well yes, but they only take a day, so spending a week to learn a runespell seems impossible for almost all cults. I think spending a whole day should do it, but only on a holy day, and probably, as per Joerg's new posting which I don't actually see as contradicting my notions, as part of a ceremony with a considerable number of enthused participants energizing it with their mana.

7 hours ago, Thaz said:

Remember that although regaining RP requires a days worship, sacrificing POW to gain runepoints and possibly spells takes _an entire week_

That always struck me as strange and illogical, since, unlike with spirit spell learning, it is a deity teaching you in return for sacrificing a bit of your soul mana. In my campaign, it takes a whole day just like regaining RP, but can *only* be done on a holy day in a temple or shrine or at least a sanctified spot. Whether this is possible on a minor holy day is something I am discussing with my players, they naturally think they should be able to and I naturally as GM think it shouldn't be possible. One possible compromise is that you can't do it except as part of a daylong communal holy day ceremony, not a Sanctified holy day ceremony in the middle of an adventure out in the sticks. Which probably doesn't usually happen on minor holy days, or no work would ever get done. 

13 hours ago, Bill the barbarian said:

Perhaps it’s a patience thing, After you have selected the text, while it is still grey keep the cursor immobile until the the rectangle (thick black lines, text stating quote selection) appears looking something like the image in the quote below... Keep at it and it will become easy ( I have been using computers since 1974 so I am getting used to them)

Thanks Bill, that actually worked! I must say patience has not always been my main virtue.

3 hours ago, Bill the barbarian said:

 It is really very simple, choose the text you wish to quote and a rectangular box shows up that says quote selection. Click it....

(rest deleted by hand)

Not on my computer it seems. I choose the text I want to quote and ... nothing happens. Or is this the multiquote thing you're talking about? I've never tried that. 

3 hours ago, Bill the barbarian said:

 It is really very simple, choose the text you wish to quote and a rectangular box shows up that says quote selection. Click it....

Hey, will try to do that.

20 minutes ago, Bill the barbarian said:

@Glorion please do not quote large blocks of text when you only need one sentences to be on topic, It makes points almost impossible to see. impossible to follow and makes navigating the threads to search for points all but impossible. When this happens several times on a page it makes me want to go away and read other threads.

This is not hypothetical, I have just spent 20 minutes trying to track something down to make a good point and now I leave dejected because I kept running into walls of quotes from you. Thanks in advance for your understanding.

Bill, you're confusing me here, as what I type myself tends to be shorter than what a lot of other folk do, you sometimes included. If you want to quote anything at all from anyone else, as far as I know you hit the quote key and the whole damn thing comes up. On one posting of mine today I actually did painstakingly remove from the quote everything that wasn't relevant, which is a pain in the ass. I will do that more often. And why you are complaining to me in particular I don't get, as right on this very page, #8 in this thread, there are plenty of quote infested postings as long or longer than the ones I do. 

2 hours ago, Akhôrahil said:

I was assuming more like +60% from Bless Crop, as it's very easily supported with weekly holy days. You say 100-400 RPs as if it's a lot, but a single initiate with 3 Rune Points can churn out well over than 100 RPs worth of Rune Magic yearly. Just a few people can do the crop-blessing for the entire clan, if required.

We still have to ask what the people without high POW have been doing, because they can still expect about a yearly point. Feed the Wyter? Pay for wardings and enchantments? Lost to DI? Damned if I know!

I am 100% percent certain that "adventurers" is not intended to mean "PCs only", but rather just used as short-form for "characters" in order to not have to repeat the same word all the time. 

Let me give you an example: "An adventurer’s affinity with a specific Rune affects their magical potential, personality, and even characteristics." Should we assume that this means that this only holds true for PCs? That seems ridiculous to me! If we would start to go with that line of reasoning, NPCs cannot be surprised in combat (because it says "adventurers"), and so on, and so on. That way lies madness. 

Also, while I haven't done my research, I'm pretty sure that NPCs in published adventures usually have the "right" amount of spells for their RP level. Take Hastur again - he has 12 Rune Points, and he quite correctly also has 12 Rune Spells. This kind of things holds true all over the place!

 

As for people without high POW, they are the ones who get frequent POW gain rolls suitable for getting new Runepoints. If you have high POW and aren't a priest, POW gain rolls are few and far between. Yes, there are NPCs in some of the recently published adventures who have fewer spells than their number of runepoints. This is merely sloppy writing, one of the reasons why we have edit suggestion threads for "Smoking Ruins" and so forth here on this website. Just ran "Days End" at Dundracon, that one turns out to need a whole heck of a lot of work.

1 hour ago, lordabdul said:

No. The adventurers go on adventures for the benefit of the community. Of course it depends on how you run your games, but the way I do it is that half of the adventures are actually on clan lands: they investigate some spirit activity, they deal with some old magical artifact found in the ground that is causing trouble, they push back an invasion of trolls, they prepare defenses against giants, etc. The other half of the adventures might be outside of the clan lands (or even tribal lands), but they are still benefiting the community: they're coming back with alliances with other clans, they're going on heroquests, they're going to Boldhome to influence politics in favour of their clan, they recover lost clan regalia, they hunt down cattle raiders or go on cattle raids themselves, etc.

At the end of the season, most people in the clan will have done their job all day long, whether it's dealing with the crops, raising children, hunting and fishing, or doing crafts. At best they go on a raid or other expedition once or twice a year. In comparison, the PCs, well, don't do that. They do... like... stuff. Combat and investigations and politics and stuff. "Adventures".

That's another possible explanation, yes.

It does matter, because... well, let's ignore the rules for a moment. It matters because I don't really know if, when you go to any arbitrary Sartarite stead, you will meet with an owner who has a couple spells only and is pretty conservative about using them, or an owner who has half a dozen spells and can kick your ass. One might say that it's whatever I want, I'm the GM, I make the stories I want... but this has a snowball effect in terms of world-building that both me and my players are sensitive to. A world where an average farmer has 1 spell vs a world where an average farmer has 5 spells are two vastly different worlds. That's why many D&D settings are widely inconsistent, because many people assume you can just drop a whole pile of magic onto a medieval society and not expect it to change a lot, treating it just as an "extra thing" people do. But no, in reality it would change society quite a lot. So based on what society Glorantha is, or at least how I want my Glorantha to be, it means I must adjust the rules, and the NPC stats, appropriately. Knowing what kind of society Chaosium's Glorantha is is key to figuring out how much I need to change the rules, or not.

If you go to your average Sartarite stead planning to kick somebody's ass, the community will kick your ass, you foreigner clan enemy you. As for claiming that adventurers go on adventures for the benefit of the community, well, sometimes. But, as stated very clearly in Guide to Glorantha, that is definitely not the opinion of their communities of adventurers. GoG p. 16: "As a matter of note, the word for “adventurer” does exist in most Gloranthan languages. The word means many things, but usually indicates someone taking risks, often illicit or at least without too many scruples, for selfish personal gain." Which, realistically, is the perfect description of your average RQ PC, which Chaosium knows well. Nor was this a new concept, similar statements in various old RQ3 materials.

Perhaps a bit different in HW and HQ, but that is not what we are playing. Every official comment from Chaosium ever about how many initiates there are in the general population has been that they are a small minority. You have to hunt for them as it's not a popular concept, which Chaosium now that Greg ain't around anymore may abandon due to its unpopularity. I think it's realistic, though Bless Crops does punch a big hole in it.

6 hours ago, Akhôrahil said:

Visiting the tribal center or one of the cities is probably at least a yearly thing for most Orlanthi.

Common folk would very often worship Orlanth or Ernalda, and hence have access to a minor temple on the clan level. Oddball cults have problems. Eurmal initiates need to travel around a lot (because shrines only)!

Tribal center yes, during Sacred Time. One of the cities? No, unless they live in one, as few do. Eurmal initiates need to travel around a lot because staying in one place for too long is highly unsafe for them. If that gives them access to additional runespells that is merely a happy coincidence. Your average Eurmali is quite satisfied with his one and only runespell. They are jokesters not powergamers, and practicing one joke to do it just right is hard enough.

13 minutes ago, lordabdul said:

Like davecake said, I'm not sure what your point is here? Everybody gets magic -- that's, like, one of the taglines of Glorantha. There's no "warriors vs. magicians", everybody is both.

No "all" but "some". Say you get raided once by the neighbours, get some monsters/critters/whatever to push back, and some spirit-related troubles, that's -30%. I imagine that's a typical year for an Orlanthi stead. Bless Crops gives +20% so you have to Stack it once to offset it to +10%. But that's only for one hide... most likely, the -30% is for the majority of the clan's lands, so your Earth priestesses have to dump some massive amounts of RPs to make sure the whole clan benefits. Were are talking of between 100 and 400 RPs, per year, here.

Yes, I'd love to see some more proper "resource management" system in RQ for managing your stead and your clan. One of the pillars of Gloranthan gaming is that PCs belong to a community, and need to take care of it... pretty soon they'll be in charge somehow, so it would make sense to have some rules for that, at least for those who are interested in it (I suppose other people just want to hand-wave it and only play the raids and the political debates and the battles with nearby trolls). The "Between Adventures" rules in RQG hint at such rules, but don't go all the way. I'm crossing my fingers that the upcoming GM book will have such rules, but I'm frankly not sure it will.

Ah yes, you're correct. Mmmh so that would give us "average" NPCs with 12 RPs at 30 year-old, and 22 RPs at 40 year-old... that makes a whole bunch of other NPCs have weird stats. For instance, Hastur the Lawspeaker (GM pack, p29) is 45 years-old but only has 12 RPs. Why did he stop sacrificing POW? One explication might be that he had actually average POW, and spent 10 years increasing it, explaining his POW 18. Now that I think about it, it might be a common long term tactic for people who want to have the best chance at resisting spells and what not. Strong-POWered clan-people means warriors who can resist enemy spells better during raids and battles.... so I guess I can halve my numbers back down and get back to where I was, while having a clan population whose average POW is higher than the human average (say, POW 12 or 13 on average).

I guess one could say this might be part of the elders' management strategy of the clan... do you want all your people to get more RPs and spells, but have lower POW, or do you want to only have them pick only a few strategic spells, and keep their POW high? It's possible different clans fall on different sides on this matter...

No, I think you may have missed what we were saying:

1. On RQG p244, it mentions that Initiates can sacrifice POW to get more Rune Points (although not exactly... see below)
2. On RQG p275, it mentions that Initiates do not get automatic access to a cult's special spells. They only get new special spells if they provide exceptional services to the temple, give a lot of money, or have other exceptional circumstances in their favour.
3. On RQG p313/314, the wording is for "adventurers". Adventurers (as in : the PCs) get 1 Rune Spell for every point of sacrificed POW.

So one interpretation of all this is that "adventurers" (PCs) get special cult Rune spells for every sacrificed point of POW because they qualify to the "exceptional services to the temple", by virtue of, you know, going on adventures. Bystander NPCs, however, do not go on adventures, so they only get RPs, but not new Rune spells.

Another interpretation (due to the unclear wording on p244 mentioned in (1) above) would be that bystander NPCs only ever sacrifice 1 point of POW during initiation, and get only 1 special cult Rune spell. After that, they don't sacrifice any POW unless they qualify to the conditions on p244 (i.e. they do exceptional things, or pay money, or whatever).

With the first interpretation, you have, like I said, an average population of people with decent pools of RPs, but few spells. With the second interpretation, you have an average population of people with only a couple RPs and spells, but at least they have as many RPs as spells. I'm not sure there's a third interpretation?  I'm also not sure which interpretation matches better whatever we know, narratively speaking, about Glorantha?

Good point yes, I'll have to include this too. But I don't think the average POW gain makes it "easy", especially when you consider the new insight above about potentially wanting your clan people to accumulate POW so they're better able to resist enemy magic during battles.

I'm still working on and off on my Clan Resources Spreadsheet which tries to make sense of how magic works at large scale (clan scale). I've got a lot of stuff to add to it now... And to try and reassure @PhilHibbs that I am not trying to extrapolate the world from the game system , I want to be clear that the point of my questions/spreadsheet/etc. is to figure out how to represent Glorantha with the proper numbers, so to speak. That is: given a certain narrative vision of Glorantha, I want to know what stats to give to the NPCs that populate this world, so that it does indeed behave "as intended" when we start rolling.

Hm? That's a strange interpretation. As it says quite clearly in the Guide to Glorantha and many other places in the canon, those who go on adventures are considered those who are selfish, doing things for themselves instead of doing their communal and religious responsibilities. So if you took that literally, adventurers would generally get fewer cult runespells than nonadventurers. Actually, the clause about "exceptional services" is a way to allow GM's to allow access to additional cult runespells to adventurers *without* sacrifice of POW to gain runepoints in return for service to the cult above and beyond the call of duty in an exceptional fashion.  As for point 3, the word "adventurers" is used for the simple reason that however nonadventurers get the runespells they have is off the screen and irrelevant to the game. Presumably it is the same, not that it matters except conceptionally.

6 hours ago, Thaz said:

Not exactly you dont. Some spells are more than one point. Also you run out of spells available at your local shrine or even temple.  As we've previously discussed you might save up POW to use on a rare trip to town or a different temple to your usual. Or you may just sacrifice pow anyway to build your rune pool without additional spell selection, lets face it being able to crank out a few Heals is likely more useful than having every spell. As a GM you can restrict what is available from where. You can run out of new spells to sacrifice at your local shrine pretty quick. 

Heck my Storm Bull took ages to track down a Temple which had Fear available....Nochet with Troll town did the trick. And yes as a player I do try and game the system a bit and try and get in a successful Fear cast each season for the POW gain roll...

As I read the rules, it doesn't matter how many points a spell has. Get a new rune point, learn a new rune spell, and it doesn't matter whether it costs one rune point or three, or even more.

11 hours ago, davecake said:

There is absolutely no reason why your warriors can’t cast  ‘Befuddle and whatnot’, almost every warrior cult grants such spells, Demoralise for example, cult spell for Orlanth and Humakt. 

Yeah, that's what I tell them.

1 hour ago, lordabdul said:

Wow this thread blew up good... which is to be expected when there is talk of rules changes between RQG and RQ2 or 3, or when there's a return to the good old debate about how many initiates there are in Sartar... let alone a combination of both! Good job people!

Anyway, my 2 cents here is that I don't see it as a problem than Rune Points replenish somewhat easily with all the holy days available. Nobody complained before that Magic Points (in RQ) or any other magical currency (in virtually every other RPG) replenishes in a matter of hours, or by the next day. Rune Points are still quite slow in comparison, and are still one of the main things that sets RQ apart from the majority of other FRPGs. And even with all the minor holy days, there's a limit (you only get 1D6 points back if you succeed your Worship roll).

The more interesting aspect, to me, is how people gain the Rune Points in the first place. Sure, maybe your Glorantha features flying Orlanthi throwing lightning bolts at each other at the local bar brawl (because they know they can recharge that in a few weeks before raid season comes in), but were they able to acquire these spells to begin with?

I agree with @David Scott's explanations here, but let's dive into it more. Most people get the 1 RP and spell on initiation. Once they have that, they need a POW gain roll or two before they can sacrifice some more, because on average they have POW 10 or 11 and going too low is risky. To get a POW experience check as mere initiates of a cult, they either need a special/critical success in Battle (it might happen after a good raid), or they need to wait for Sacred Time. They don't have the 500L needed for POW training. Once they get the POW experience check, they have, on average, around 50% to actually increase POW. So, again on average, they get an actual POW point every 2 years. If they sacrifice that right away, you have a curve where average people have, at best, a number of RPs roughly equal to, say, (Age - 16) / 2  (assuming 16 is adulthood). That's around 3 RPs at 21, 7 RPs at 30, 12 RPs at 40.  But remember that sacrificing POW requires spending a whole week in prayers and meditation at the temple. Not everybody can afford to take that time off... maybe there's a queue system organized by the clan elders to make sure there are not too many people going away for a week all the time to sacrifice POW, so maybe you have to wait a bit more to get your turn.

Then there's indeed the mention that initiates don't get automatic access to special Rune Magic. I agree that this information on p275 is easy to miss. Adventurers (as in : the PCs) do get access to it pretty much automatically because they probably qualify for the "exceptional service to the cult" clause... I mean, they do go on adventures and stuff, so by the end of the year, when they get a chance to gain POW and, therefore, a chance to sacrifice some, they probably did something to merit the new spells. That's probably why it's not mentioned in the Rune Magic chapter (where, one might notice, the text only ever talks about "adventurers" and not initiates).

So the average Sartarite may have a steady increase in RPs, but, as they go about their day to day business, they might not accumulate many spells. A 35 year old Sartarite might have only a couple of cult special Rune spells, even though they might have as many as 8 Rune Points. They might use these 2 spells pretty liberally based on the fact that holy days are pretty frequent (assuming they have a bit of time to spare for worship), but it means that the local bar brawl actually looks more like one-trick drunkards throwing the same spell 2 or 3 times in a row before passing out, as opposed to big show of varied magics. Since minor holy days average to ~3 RPs recovered (accounting for the uncommon fail in Worship), it will take a month or more for that 35 year old to recover all their RPs. Their family will be pissed when something bad happens and they are 1 or 2 RPs too short. So these Sartarites better limit their "leisurely" use of Rune Magic to a couple points at a time, so they have a good stash on hand for emergencies. Most likely they use Spirit Magic more than anything anyway during bar brawls and petty disputes, that's just safer.

The real problem for me so far is just that some Sartarite NPCs we have seen in the GM pack and Smoking Ruins are either (at worst) inconsistent, or (at best) lacking some commentary explaining the in-world circumstances that lead to their stats being the way they are. For instance, take Arndala in the GM pack (p105): she's a 35 year-old Ernalda initiate with only 3 Rune Points. Why hasn't she sacrificed for more by now? I think these "bystander" NPCs need more thought from the authors, so we know how Chaosium bridges the rules and the worldbuilding.

1 hour ago, lordabdul said:

Wow this thread blew up good... which is to be expected when there is talk of rules changes between RQG and RQ2 or 3, or when there's a return to the good old debate about how many initiates there are in Sartar... let alone a combination of both! Good job people!

Anyway, my 2 cents here is that I don't see it as a problem than Rune Points replenish somewhat easily with all the holy days available. Nobody complained before that Magic Points (in RQ) or any other magical currency (in virtually every other RPG) replenishes in a matter of hours, or by the next day. Rune Points are still quite slow in comparison, and are still one of the main things that sets RQ apart from the majority of other FRPGs. And even with all the minor holy days, there's a limit (you only get 1D6 points back if you succeed your Worship roll).

The more interesting aspect, to me, is how people gain the Rune Points in the first place. Sure, maybe your Glorantha features flying Orlanthi throwing lightning bolts at each other at the local bar brawl (because they know they can recharge that in a few weeks before raid season comes in), but were they able to acquire these spells to begin with?

I agree with @David Scott's explanations here, but let's dive into it more. Most people get the 1 RP and spell on initiation. Once they have that, they need a POW gain roll or two before they can sacrifice some more, because on average they have POW 10 or 11 and going too low is risky. To get a POW experience check as mere initiates of a cult, they either need a special/critical success in Battle (it might happen after a good raid), or they need to wait for Sacred Time. They don't have the 500L needed for POW training. Once they get the POW experience check, they have, on average, around 50% to actually increase POW. So, again on average, they get an actual POW point every 2 years. If they sacrifice that right away, you have a curve where average people have, at best, a number of RPs roughly equal to, say, (Age - 16) / 2  (assuming 16 is adulthood). That's around 3 RPs at 21, 7 RPs at 30, 12 RPs at 40.  But remember that sacrificing POW requires spending a whole week in prayers and meditation at the temple. Not everybody can afford to take that time off... maybe there's a queue system organized by the clan elders to make sure there are not too many people going away for a week all the time to sacrifice POW, so maybe you have to wait a bit more to get your turn.

Then there's indeed the mention that initiates don't get automatic access to special Rune Magic. I agree that this information on p275 is easy to miss. Adventurers (as in : the PCs) do get access to it pretty much automatically because they probably qualify for the "exceptional service to the cult" clause... I mean, they do go on adventures and stuff, so by the end of the year, when they get a chance to gain POW and, therefore, a chance to sacrifice some, they probably did something to merit the new spells. That's probably why it's not mentioned in the Rune Magic chapter (where, one might notice, the text only ever talks about "adventurers" and not initiates).

So the average Sartarite may have a steady increase in RPs, but, as they go about their day to day business, they might not accumulate many spells. A 35 year old Sartarite might have only a couple of cult special Rune spells, even though they might have as many as 8 Rune Points. They might use these 2 spells pretty liberally based on the fact that holy days are pretty frequent (assuming they have a bit of time to spare for worship), but it means that the local bar brawl actually looks more like one-trick drunkards throwing the same spell 2 or 3 times in a row before passing out, as opposed to big show of varied magics. Since minor holy days average to ~3 RPs recovered (accounting for the uncommon fail in Worship), it will take a month or more for that 35 year old to recover all their RPs. Their family will be pissed when something bad happens and they are 1 or 2 RPs too short. So these Sartarites better limit their "leisurely" use of Rune Magic to a couple points at a time, so they have a good stash on hand for emergencies. Most likely they use Spirit Magic more than anything anyway during bar brawls and petty disputes, that's just safer.

The real problem for me so far is just that some Sartarite NPCs we have seen in the GM pack and Smoking Ruins are either (at worst) inconsistent, or (at best) lacking some commentary explaining the in-world circumstances that lead to their stats being the way they are. For instance, take Arndala in the GM pack (p105): she's a 35 year-old Ernalda initiate with only 3 Rune Points. Why hasn't she sacrificed for more by now? I think these "bystander" NPCs need more thought from the authors, so we know how Chaosium bridges the rules and the worldbuilding.

Funny, my players complain that the warriors can't go up in power because, unlike magicians who cast Befuddle and whatnot, the only way they can get a POW check is through worship ceremonies on the High Holy Day or Sacred Time, so how can they ever get any Runespells, except maybe one point a year? Crits and specials on Battle from battles are pretty rare birds, especially since I only have them in battles when you have actual battles in the official timeline, as one can hardly roleplay them without a cast of hundreds and thousands. As I'm in a slow campaign, where a year of game time is about a year of actual time as each season has a multi session adventure, they find that extremely limiting. I actually let my players get POW checks for successful worship during seasonal holy days, but want to limit that by saying they have to get "natural" successes, no augments of any nature, so they actually have to work on their Worship skill

5 hours ago, Dissolv said:

These are very surprising points of view to me. 

I mean, straight up Guide to Glorantha Vol.1, p. 9

and for military power, Guide to Glorantha Vol 1, p. 13

 

I'm not sure I agree with the "wealth = military victory".  Nomads are typically quite poor and often ferocious.  Barbarians ravaged ancient Rome (the city state), but even if you accept that premise, which tribe will be richer and how does it get and stay that way?

So how does a tribe get wealth in peace time?   Will it gain wealth in peace time better with fewer Issaries initiates, or more?  My money is on the tribe with more followers of the trader god, as well as other gods that help crafting, farming, herding, and other wealth generating activities.  What's the first thing you do in King of Dragon Pass game when you need wealth?  Increase the size of the Issaries temple to allow/attract more worshipers. 

How does a tribe get wealth via warfare?  Will it be more successful and gain more plunder with fewer war-cult followers, or more?    Clearly more better.   Besides the above quote from the Guide (which is repeated in the Arms and Armies of Dragon Pass p.6) there is again the visceral example of the two Glorantha video games.   Having trouble with combat?  Build up your Orlanth/Elmal temple is always the first answer.  More followers, more combat power. 

Maybe you subscribe to the point of view that the Rune magic comes mainly from the Priests, but Priests have to come from a pool of Initiates,  and which tribe is likely to have more Priests?  Well honestly, all other things being equal, the one with more Initiates in the first place.

Between these thoughts, and all the many publications where pretty much everyone is an Initiate, I have a hard time understanding the point of view that the majority of Glorantha theists are NOT initiated to some god or other.    From the very beginning, Initiate status was a big deal.  And not just for Rune spells.  You also get Divine Intervention, limited access to Rune spells, of course, and:

So the initiates are not just sporting Rune spells around.  They also can be expected to pop Divine Interventions (think of it this way -- they negate 10% of the deaths in a battle.  That's no small thing.), and they also have better skills and spirit magic too.

Actually, that is all true and completely besides the point. During holy day ceremonies, lay members give one magic point, and initiates ... two. So in terms of the strength of the community,  if it's mostly lay members, it is the worship of the lay members more than that of the initiates which strengthens the community and wyter and the deity magically. As for the warriors and the merchants and the nobles and probably the craftsmen, yes they have to be initiates, but they are a small minority of the Sartarite population--probably 10% in fact, these are barbarians after all, this isn't Peloria. In warfare, it's the warriors who'd damn well better be initiates of a wargod who matter, not the spear carrying farmer-herder arrow fodder. Who if they happen to be initiates and manage a DI, their DI would usually be "feets, do your stuff." How many warriors a community of farmers and herders can field is totally dependent on how prosperous it is, so Bless Crops is the most powerful magical-military weapon around. Unlike Praxian nomads, every single one of whom is a warrior, which is why in real life nomads did so well so often against civilized empires before gunpowder and such. But who are spirit magic oriented, so also probably not initiates. They get their powerful magics from their powerful shamans, not from runespells from Waha.

47 minutes ago, PhilHibbs said:

Remember, when you take into account the effects of Bless Crops, that there is equally potent bad magic out there that can wreck your crops. Dinosaurs, Aldryami, pestillence spirits, Gorakkiki swarms, some years you're lucky if Bless Crops keeps up with the relentless assault.

Good point. And that is why the Lunar Heartland is much more prosperous than Sartar and people live better there, even if Orlanth-Ernalda magic and initiate percentages are better. Living in a land where violence is always an option can definitely be problematic.

3 hours ago, Dissolv said:

I was thinking more sociologically about it.  Tribe 1 has a 10% initiation level.  Tribe 2 is pretty much the same, but has a 50% (male population) Orlanth/Lightbringers initiation level.  Who wins a raid?  Who wins more and takes less casualties when they have to fight outsiders?  Who consistently wins acclaim of the other tribes?   Which males consistently attract and can keep the most desirable females?    Which tribe is healthier and richer?   Even if you invest in war magic, just one successful cattle raid can more than make up for the cost....

 

As has been pointed out, it's the richer tribe that will win, not necessarily the one with more initiates. The richer tribe will have better weaponry, and can buy more magic, spirit matrices etc., and quite simply will be larger, with more spear carrying farmers. And even more importantly, more capable of having large numbers of warriors and nobles living off the farmers and herders. Now, Ernaldan crops magic is the exception, as the tribe with the most casters of Bless Crops will automatically be richer. And as for marriage, you have it backwards. Which women consistently attract and can keep the most desirable males, i.e. the ones with the most cows? The most prosperous ones, who can bring the most and best land into the marriage.

5 hours ago, Akhôrahil said:

If you look at the economy system for farmers in the book though, you will see that you have to pay 20% of the gross of the farm to the temple anyway, and that this counts for your 10% tithing. So there's really no cost involved for a farmer couple to be initiated into Orlanth and Ernalda respectively. Which in turn means that there's almost no cost bar the POW to getting some pretty impressive magical powers. There's just no reason not to get initiated.

Hm. Yes, you are correct, I overlooked that. So yes, with that in the rules every farmwife will want to be an initiate of Ernalda or the land goddess, be crazy not to. Which throws my argument right into a cocked hat. Presumably something similar has to be true in the Lunar Empire for farmers, who no doubt have access both to Bless Crops from the land goddess and even better stuff, Hon-eel and maize and so forth, so the same should be true in the Lunar Empire as well. I still don't think it makes that much sense for every male to be a cult initiate, as if you are a farmer not a warrior you don't spend your whole life fighting. It's mostly the warriors on all those raids and counterraids. Actually, to my taste it really ought to be that all lay members get all the benefits from Ernalda's blessings and that actual Ernalda initiates should pay extra, but such is life. The economy system for farmers in the book is not consistent with the concept that only some 10% of Sartarite women are lay members.

1 hour ago, GAZZA said:

Can we agree at least that using the phrase "initiated into" to mean "become a lay member of" is needlessly confusing?

RQ3 largely did away with lay membership; pretty much the first rung on cult membership became initiate instead. RQ2 didn't; there were cults where you had to have been a lay member for X years before you could even try to become an initiate.

One can certainly argue about which of these previous versions got it correct, but from the standpoint of RQG it seems that lay membership, at the very least, is not important in game terms. If "initiated into the cult of Orlanth Adventurous" really is intended to mean "became a lay member of the cult of Orlanth Adventurous" then that is a bizarre decision akin to D&D's varied use of the term "level" - a needless barrier to comprehension from new GMs given that alternative language is readily available. I submit that most new GMs that see the phrase "initiated into" are going to assume that means "becomes an Initiate of", and honestly it's hard to say RAW that they're wrong to do so.

Certainly as I'm converting over Borderlands and Beyond for my upcoming RQG game I'm redoing the NPCs initiates as having Rune Points, even though they rarely do in the (RQ2) original.

Definitely true! Either Chaosium should say to hell with realistic notions of Glorantha, this is just a game anyway, and accept the popular call to make everyone in sight an initiate, or this should be clarified. Not least clarified to the folk writing supplements and adventures! I'm somewhat pleased to be reminded that you had less profusion of rune magic in RQ2 than in RQ3. RQG is after all based on 2 which was popular, not 3 which was less so.