Glorion

8 hours ago, Akhôrahil said:

Again, Lie isn’t a memory alteration spell. If you tell the Storm Bull he has all ways been afraid of Broo, he might briefly think so, but introspection will reveal it as false, at which point the spell breaks.

If you want to mess him up, tell him that Chaos is a necessary part of the Cosmos instead. How could anyone possibly disprove that by observation?

Lie makes for a weirdly powerful missionary or political tool. “Hrestol’s teachings are the only correct ones.” “The Lunar Empire is a force for good.” “Orlanth is not worthy of worship.” “Argrath is the rightful king.” “Tricksters deserve to be cherished.” Since you can’t ever strongly disprove such statements, there’s no getting rid of them, except perhaps another Lie spell.

Tricksters do deserve to be cherished, so that isn't a good use of the Lie spell. Just ask rightful king Argrath, he'll tell you that... Well, maybe not Elusu. The other Lies would be dispelled by somebody he respects telling him otherwise, which would force him to think about it, and then his lifetime of believing otherwise would overcome the Lie. But until someone like that does, yes the Lie would be effective. But probably not a good use of the spell, as that would not necessarily effect his actions, just be sort of a longer lasting and milder Befuddle.

21 hours ago, French Desperate WindChild said:

yes we agree , lie should not change feeling. It changes belief.

 

but my reasoning is a little bit different :

i consider that a victim of "lie" cannot by personal though change his new belief. Because when you believe, you believe, you don't ask yourself if it is a good idea or not to believe it as there is no reason to ask yourself (well except if you have "ask yourself all the time about everything" passion). You start to question yourself when an external stimulus happens. (that is what the rules illustrate with the "no rising sun experience")

So back to feeling. If a spell changes feeling, how can you come back to your "true" feelings ? there are for me only two ways :

- the spell has a duration, after that everything get right (-> lie spell has no limit duration)

- the spell has an external exit condition for example you see the "target" of you previous feeling and your previous feeling come back. (-> lie spell has an exit condition but not this one : you see the proof demonstrating it was a lie. Seeing someone is not a proof of feeling, as I previously said I don't consider that you can demonstrate that a previous feeling is the actual feeling)

so if lie changes feeling, only another lie spell can "break" it. too awesome for me. Lie will not change feelings on my table.

But there is an open door for an "overpower" spell, something like 10 rune points spell (of course one use) to change a feeling whitout time limit (but the victim can augment is resistance roll with the passion)

 

 

You have proven that your version and interpretation of the Lie spell is problematic. So, therefore, it's wrong. Simple solution to the problem!

16 hours ago, soltakss said:

An Eurmal cultists worried about the consequences of their actions shouldn't really be an Eurmal cultist, or is already in chains.

IMHO the trouble with the Trickster trying something like what I was discussing is that *it doesn't work.* If he is foolish enough to try it anyway, fine, but then he's used up the rune points to no purpose. Being a trickster, yup he might do it anyway, such is the life of a trickster.

An issue that has come up in our campaign, as we wander the plains of Prax and run into various Praxian tribes. Sables. We have run across a bunch of sable riders, but they aren't riding sables! Instead, they are riding sable *antelopes.* Riding actual sables would be much cooler, but they are a bit on the small side to ride. True sables are a closely related to weasels. Is there, perhaps, a Trickster spell Increase weasel size? And for it to work on the sable or weasel, would it have to be rabid first? My trickster would love to ride into a Sable Rider camp riding an actual sable. Here's a picture of one. 

On 11/7/2020 at 4:06 PM, lordabdul said:

Yeah, effectively... although at a meta gaming level, I would be a bit of an asshole GM to let the player spend the Rune Points only to immediately show them it was a waste   But yeah that's probably what would happen if they tried anyway.

Eh, speaking as somebody currently running a Trickster myself, a player arrogant enough to try to do something as overpowered as that kind of super effective Lie spell way beyond what the rules say, really ought to lose those rune points.

On 11/7/2020 at 1:40 PM, French Desperate WindChild said:

 

 I think these two cases are good, and for both I would not allow lie to change them directly

I don't see  "lie" able to change directly a passion or a desire.

For example :

I would not allow "you don't love your partner" but I would allow "your partner was with XXX last night" (even if the victim of "lie" was with her/his partner) Then maybe the victim will lose passion point because wrongly accusing the partner, or killing XXX or something like that.

I would not allow "you, Yelm priest, don't love your god" but allow " Yelm considers you a bad worshipper". Then maybe the desperate priest will decide to retire, or to betray Yelm or to become the best worshipper in the world

For me It is not a "domination" spell, it is a "manipulation" spell, the trickster should not be able to determine what will happen, but able to create a funny (?) but hazardous situation, leaving the victim manage this false truth

You, the Yelm priest, don't love your god, should work, briefly, for a couple minutes, during which you would be in the equivalent of what happens when you fumble a Passion role. But then, your lifelong memories of loving Yelm would come back to you, and the Lie would break down, in the same fashion that a Lie that the sun won't rise the next morning breaks down next morning when it does anyway (on Glorantha, the sun not rising is perfectly possible though highly disturbing to Yelm worshippers, unlike trolls).

On 10/29/2020 at 1:59 AM, soltakss said:

If X is not present, people might be very worried. If X is present, all he needs say is "Oh, no I don't" and the Lie disappears.

Lie can be handled as an overpowering superpower, it can also be completely nerfed by GMs. Neither work for me. I use it when necessary and allow it to work when used creatively.

It doesn't just disappear. He has to make a persuasion roll of some kind. If the lie is implausible, the GM should give him bonuses on the roll. OTOH, if some of his past actions have made the lie sound plausible...

On 11/5/2020 at 12:09 PM, PhilHibbs said:

Don't let an asshole play a trickster. A good roleplayer, who has a focus on making the game successful and enjoyable and fun, can absolutely rock as a trickster. It can be an experience that nobody would ever forget, and will fall about laughing over for years.

As to the OP, I'd say any lie beginning "You believe that..." or "You want..." will instantly fail. You are being made to believe that you believe/want it, but you don't believe it, so the belief that you believe it will instantly be disproved by your lack of actual belief. †

† Read that in the voice of Wallace Shawn playing Vizzini in The Princess Bride.

Basically, don't let an asshole play period. There are myriad ways for a jerk to destroy a game, no matter what character he or she is playing. Good point on "you believe" but for a different reason. Most people realise that just because you believe something doesn't mean it is true, and just because you want something doesn't mean you should have it. Some folk are exceptions to those rules however, and a Lie like that would work on them, but a simpler Lie would work better. The best Lies are like the best lies, namely ones that have an element of plausibility in them, so they are harder to dispel. Good Lying, like good lying, is a fine art.

On 10/26/2020 at 9:16 AM, lordabdul said:

Somebody causing trouble around the tula (especially if it's somebody else's tula!) will get in trouble, Eurmali or not... murder hoboes (or, rather, murder tourists, which is more accurate) are not dealt with kindly around Dragon Pass or Prax. So if the whole party has unreliable motives, they will get run out of the area, or worse, regardless of whether they have an Eurmali in the party or not.

If, however, the party is doing OK things and it's just the Eurmali causing trouble by himself, I would probably:

1. Have someone come up to the party and ask if anyone of them is the Eurmali's guardian. If so, they will be held accountable: given a warning, asked for compensation, brought in front of the chieftain for a judgment, or whatever else is appropriate given the trouble.
2. If nobody is the guardian, the NPC might give a fair warning to the party ("I'll kill that idiot if he comes near the marketplace again!"), or even draw his sword and say "Fine, where is that bastard? I've got a word or two for him". Maybe even chastise the party: "You have a friggin' unbonded Trickster? What the Gods is wrong with you?!".

So yeah, the Eurmali can put the rest of the party in trouble... but that's not specific to Tricksters. There's a variety of other character concepts that might get the party kicked out or, at least, paying hefty sums to appease people.

Sartar Companion has a long cult write-up (in HQG form of course) of Eurmal, with a little warning at the beginning that Tricksters are hard to play right, and that players probably misunderstand the concept if they think it's only about playing gags and tricks and making jokes. There's also a mention that nobody in Sartar wants an unbonded Trickster around anyway.

Yes, any character type can cause problems for a party if played properly. Take Chalana Arroy, going on adventures with a party. What should a Chalana Arroy do when a party member tries to kill a bad guy if it isn't absolutely necessary? Cast Sleep on said party member of course.

7 hours ago, Stephen L said:

But not in an artificial way.

Just looking in the world around us makes it abundantly clear that lies and illusions are very, very dangerous (far more so than just in current politics).  I'm afraid history is full of horrific examples of what large numbers of people can do if they are made to believe something.  And, Eurmal being part of the Orlanthi mythology, this will be very well understood in Glorantha.

Now, imagine you've a party, perhaps getting on in the world, perhaps one of them is thane of apple lane.  If it gets about that he's got a tame Eurmal, with lie, that's a big threat to the stability of the tribe.  Next moot, when something important is being decided, the Thane could get up and speak, and the tribes decision could be based on a lie, and could set them on a disastrous path (Um, why are we chopping down Tarndisi's Grove, again.  Oh yes, the elves are our enemies, that explains why they're ambushing us!). It's not as if the political stability of the Colymar isn't fragile enough at the moment. Does Asborn want them as neighbours? Sure yes, I remember now, we agreed you could pasture your cattle there.  I'll just move my shrine.

If it were my campaign, with an Eurmal, they would have to understand that if it got out that they had lie or illusions, it was likely that the entire party would be run out of the tribe, or put under some cast iron leash (I'd struggle running more than a few adventures as Leika's lapdogs, without much say in things).  Anything an Eurmali does is going to have to be undetectable, otherwise they'll just be run out of town when the effect wear off.

I agree with what you're saying (if I've understood!).  A belief I had suicidal tendencies wouldn't make me commit suicide, it would make me seek help immediately.  It might make me buy a remedy the trickster was selling.

In our campaign, Leika brought in my Trickster apprentice shaman, who happens to be a cousin of hers and was raised together with the new Thane of Apple Lane, a Wind Lord she handed her cousin over to, after a few days bonded to Leika after he got back from solitary spying missions. OTOH, she is sending the party off to Pavis to check out this Argrath character... BTW, according to the official timeline, in a couple years Argrath is going to put *all* Tricksters in Sartar under his protection.

1 hour ago, Bill the barbarian said:

1 hour ago, Bill the barbarian said:

 

 

Isn/t it though. Or one could discuss the meaning and merit of Road Runner and Coyote sketches... like, why an anvil?

Ah yes, the Hallucinate spell, my old favorite. I called it the Roadrunner spell back in RQ2 days, when how it worked wasn't quite nailed down yet. You know, cast Hallucinate on that brick wall that there's an opening. You go through. The guy chasing you however...

On 10/21/2020 at 8:07 AM, g33k said:

That's part of the point.

But I disallow players who want to take Trickster PC's to be good party-members, faithfully and strategically deploying their (considerable!) powers for the greatest advantage to the party, the mission, etc.

Why? When I rolled up my Trickster, just from previous experience he ended up with Honor at 80%. So he is very honorable because that's how he got rolled up, without any assistance except from the dice. And he joined the party the same month that the party leader, his cousin, made Wind Lord, so he is bonded. Since then, our GM has commented that perhaps the only thing worse than an evil Trickster is a good one. His ideas of what should be done for the good of the party aren't always exactly those of anyone else...

On 10/21/2020 at 8:04 AM, g33k said:

Not a fan of finding ways to nerf the Lie spell.

Eurmali are f'ing dangerous.  There's a reason for all the opprobrium heaped upon them.

My Trickster used the Lie spell just last Sunday at the game to get rid of a troll ambush. They were planning to roll rocks down on us. He shouted out to them "flee for your lives, there are Gods down there"! They did. Confused some of the party members, some of whom thought they were gods and some of whom were looking around for the gods in the party, but they all figured out it was a lie quickly. Trolls probably did too, but they were intimidated. However, Rodney's character is quite convinced that his Goldeneye is a God, and is thinking of creating a cult around him. So what would we do without tricksters? Orlanth certainly thinks they are necessary.

3 hours ago, lordabdul said:

I know that this is confusing because some spells mention the resistance roll (POW vs POW) and some other don't, but, in fact, all spells except noted otherwise require a resistance roll.

It's an interesting question however (and not addressed in the rules) what happens if the caster fails the resistance roll... would the target be aware of it? I'm tempted to say "yes" at least in the case of a fumble. I might be a nice GM and let the target stay unaware if it's just a normal failure.

As has been pointed out, this is irrelevant because you don't cast it on others, you cast it on yourself. However, I am not sure that means you do not resist it if you are a Trickster, come to think of it. Maybe you do if you feel like it.

More to the point, it is .an Illusion spell, cast with the Illusion rune. I don't think you can resist it with your POW, but why not with your Truth rune? I think if your Truth rune roll is better than the caster's Illusion rune roll, then maybe it doesn't work on you?

1 hour ago, lordabdul said:

I wouldn't assign this meaning to the word "automatically" here. Feel free to interpret it otherwise.

The text gives an example that's clearly intentionally outlandish ("the sun isn't going to rise tomorrow"), so I'd say pretty much anything goes.

Where I don't agree that this spell is "ridiculous" or can be "abused" is that the caster can only control what the target believes. You can't predict what the target will do about it, and I think that's where the GM can have fun with it. You tell them "your family will be killed if you don't....", it doesn't mean they'll do that. It means they'll believe that something or someone is threatening their family and only doing "whatever" will save them. What kind of danger are they in? Where are they? How does the action relates to the danger they're in? Is a spirit responsible, or a God, or a band of trolls, or the Lunars? The target might have a lot of questions for you all of a sudden -- maybe they will think you're just the messenger, or maybe they'll think you're in on it and draw a sword. Maybe they'll rush to check on their family. Anything could happen.

I think the Lie spell is the most ripe for misuse and the GM making a player regret trying to abuse it. It's a spell that requires careful dosage: not too little, not too much.

This is Glorantha. Whether the sun rises tomorrow is never automatic, although persuading Yelm not to rise tomorrow would be a big Heroquest. Haven't had a good Sunstop in centuries... But otherwise points taken. For it not to have unfortunate results does require an imaginative GM.

12 hours ago, Minlister said:

@Glorion

Great!! It is nice that he threw up his hands in despair, there are two withered hands attached to the Lysang chieftain's torque: I can use them as spare pieces!

Maybe they could try their hands (hi, hi) at the heroquest? They can impersonate Boranini, the river god, go up the Quivini, built a glacier palace to offer Vadrus' daughters and marry them! And have merry hollri children to attack their enemies while riding the moving glacier down the valley!

They could have done those things, but then they ran into a rattling chariot in nearby Farfield, and then started hearing rumors about Smoking Ruins. And a season or two later, after Queen Leika's glorious performance at the Battle of Dangerford, the Lysang clan council was finally so impressed that they up and rejoined the Colymar tribe after all. The party got partial credit for that, disposing so successfully of Storn had impressed the Lysang a bit. Now, after adventures on the Pegasus Plateau, they are off to Pavis on a special mission. Queen Leika wants to know some more about this Argrath fellow, now that Kallyr is dead and nobody seems to want to make her Prince of Sartar. There are rumors that he is involved with chaos there...

13 minutes ago, Minlister said:

Thanks @Bill the barbarian!

@Glorion

Yes, it should  be my document, I offered the French version. I am very glad you liked it and thrilled that you could use it in actual play :

But I can't check your version, the link doesn't work.

The current version should be much longer, however. In French it is ca. 220 pages, around 150 without the scenarios, so you should find new  things in the updated version! 

We used it circa 1625, with a visit to the Lysang clan in the process of dealing with a certain Dream Dragon... Our adventurers were tasked by Queen Leika with trying to get the Lysang clan to rejoin the Colymar, and the party leader took one look at the info from the Queen as to what was going on in the clan council and threw up his hands in despair. Indeed the link doesn't work, I put it up there for the sole purpose of enabling you or anyone else to verify that we were talking about the same thing who knew that link.

1 minute ago, Glorion said:

Is this translated from the 72 page French writeup of the Lysang clan which I found a year ago and downloaded before it vanished from the Internet, which I used as a basis for the adventure in our house campaign which Rodney participated in? Great stuff. I think I could upload it for those who read French, if that doesn't violate anybody's copyright, or even send it to you. There weren't any copyright indicators, maybe why the site isn't available anymore to the public. When still available it was:

Set later, a thoroughly split up clan with factions reaching back to the clan's founding, with the lysang birds actually banned from the tulpa due to strange events hundreds of years ago, a renegade Great Tree in a mushroom forest allied with black elves and trollkin, a Yelmalion military leader allied with an Ernaldan priestess planning to sacrifice the clan chief in a Year King ritual to save the clan from the Great Winter, and all sorts of other partridges and pear trees. Fascinating!

Is this translated from the 72 page French writeup of the Lysang clan which I found a year ago and downloaded before it vanished from the Internet, which I used as a basis for the adventure in our house campaign which Rodney participated in? Great stuff. I think I could upload it for those who read French, if that doesn't violate anybody's copyright, or even send it to you. There weren't any copyright indicators, maybe why the site isn't available anymore to the public. When still available it was:

https://uc8b9f981b616c60c6b8e0d091c2.previews.dropboxusercontent.com/p/pdf/AAjb_FckGMeNdvcLDntM5pSvxI-kqwAoNXmvSpNbYXGpK9Mkb8S65hzJU7M8QHQ60MCLfuh-YIyeYsvcBZrZFewiyVE4BQYet3Ro6oIpGf68J8YxOHaHi27lLjpdfERJmmoY1dGZl87cu5wgu4Y-f76tNpIWA6jGajiJosV1NYcw2n_OpCRI3wJplr4pD_6o4xe6g1BalEW0ACj_ktf70TtuNy1vpKuMH5VvudSxTbZYTc-D4YegJBJMwZvFGf5y6rdl0J9gAhLku7AHKvo3PRD-47g6OFIIrqY0zPUUOcbQL2mcV6YN6JJCEoq5sncw6vealeEteLEFwtzMB0DugGK5rSN0YpgPNb7AVsAP65Bse5WBfw70htfK3_J25sDzULT99-ynp_ZdIdpPVa5EsDzo/p.pdf 

On 4/21/2020 at 3:03 PM, BigJackBrass said:

Yes, that's what I expected. Understandable, but disappointing. HQ is what made Glorantha appealing to me after decades of barely dabbling in it and it's a shame to see it sidelined (or perhaps repurposed would be a better way to put it). 

Repurposed, yeah. There really aren't too many people out there who want to play HQ, it's a failed game system, but a lot of the HQ material is quite useful for the real game. At least, it is now, with so much RQG material still in the pipeline. In a few years HQ could be given a quiet burial.

18 hours ago, Shiningbrow said:

This is obviously your personal interpretation of what goes on... Not all will agree. Especially since the bit about discorporation actually goes against the RAW.

Personally, I can see the possibility of a character having awakened their Fetch, but unable (hasn't learned/been taught) to discorporate (e.g., HQ reward - great for the extra POW & CHA)

Except the fetch is a part of you, and is already *on* the spirit plane 24/7. So if you have a fetch, you are always already partially discorporated. PS, what does RAW stand for?

On 8/11/2020 at 2:09 AM, David Scott said:

In the core books it's not possible at the moment. There's no multiple cult joining in the Adventurers chapter, and no spirit cults or societies available.

In outline, the adventurer would join the Kolat spirit society, a group of spirit cults with Kolat at the head. You'd get a package of skills and spells as step 6. You don't have to join Orlanth, but can if you want.

Why impossible? If an assistant shaman can be Yelmi, an assistant shaman can certainly be Orlanthi. Yes, you could join Kolat instead if you wish, even though that is *also* not listed as one of the three choices in the Assistant Shaman description, which I'm sure are intended as examples not rigid rules. Me, I think Kolat is a bit limiting. The assistant shaman in my campaign, a Wind Child, naturally joined Orlanth as most Wind Children do. My old RQ3 shaman Jirenx or Jaranx, one of the original playtesters of RQ3, was a Eurmal shaman, an idea to which Sandy raised no objections whatsoever.

T

24 minutes ago, David Scott said:

If you are starting off as an assistant apprenticed to a Daka Fal shaman, you choose your occupation and cult per the Adventurers chapter. You get 3 Rune points and get to choose 3 special cult spells. Let's say you choose Axis Mundi, Discorporation and Spirit Melding. Straight out of the box, you can Discorporate (1 Rune point and a meditation roll) and spend two Rune points using Extension (a common spell for Daka Fal) and extend your discorporation to a day.

True enough, but most PCs are Sartarite, and by and large Sartarite PCs are going to prefer to be Orlanthi to Daka Fal, for cultural reasons and also because the three Orlanth spells would be more useful. Hm. come to think of it, the Orlanthi assistant shamans would have all the Extension they need. Still, by the new dispensation, a sensible assistant shaman is not going to *want* to spend more than 15 minutes on the spirit plane anyway until full shamanhood is attained. Safer. A daily 15 minutes on the spirit plane, with or without guidance from the shaman, should be enough for training purposes. And there is no rules modeling for assistants getting extra training by risking longer trips, so there is no motivation for that except possibly roleplaying glory.

Just now, Glorion said:

As an aside, a few of my players figured it was better to spend a POW during character generation for an extra Rune point and spell, so high levels of Extension are easily obtainable.

Absolutely, unless you are an assistant shaman, for whom every point of POW is extremely precious. An Ernaldan magic user who doesn't spend *at least* one point of POW for an extra rune spell is foolish.

23 minutes ago, David Scott said:

If you are starting off as an assistant apprenticed to a Daka Fal shaman, you choose your occupation and cult per the Adventurers chapter. You get 3 Rune points and get to choose 3 special cult spells. Let's say you choose Axis Mundi, Discorporation and Spirit Melding. Straight out of the box, you can Discorporate (1 Rune point and a meditation roll) and spend two Rune points using Extension (a common spell for Daka Fal) and extend your discorporation to a day.

As an aside, a few of my players figured it was better to spend a POW during character generation for an extra Rune point and spell, so high levels of Extension are easily obtainable.

All of the shamanic cults in the core book have access to Extension, including the two spirit cult examples.

Aldrya in the Bestiary can only access it as a Dryad, but this is a very cut down version of the cult. Kyger litor has access to it as well.

9 minutes ago, PhilHibbs said:

You don't spend POW for Extension. It's common divine, if the cult gives it then you can cast it with your Rune Points.

Yes, but if you want more than Extension 1, you have to sacrifice more than one point of POW for Rune Points. Also, BTW, not all spirit cults have access to all the common runespells, and Extension would be an obvious one for them not to have, as not very spiritual.

17 minutes ago, David Scott said:

Both.

Well good then. In practice, that comes out just about like what I suggested. If some assistant shamans want to be part of a cult and sac some points of POW for Extension to be able to spend too long on the spirit plane at their levels, no need to oppose that. Though I suspect their shamans would recommend against it.