Glorion

16 minutes ago, jajagappa said:

Isn't that a question from a different thread on issues with Rune spells?

The OP was about whether there was too much Rune magic now. And that's really just a matter of a GM determining pace of game and what they want.

I think the two questions are interlocked,hard to think about one without thinking about the other. Actually, I personally don't have a problem with "too much rune magic," except maybe for Bless Crops. In Rayquest, rune magic is highly accessible, had to be as Ray simply abolished "battle magic" altogether. As a GM I've tended to if anything loosen access to Rune magic instead of tightening it.

1 minute ago, jajagappa said:

I will continue to read "initiated" as = "initiate", not lay member.  Others can do otherwise, but from a standpoint of writing for RQG this makes the most sense.

That's what "communal membership" implies. 

The devotee status is definitely equal to Rune Lord.

If they are in the book, "background" or otherwise, they are meant to be played! Any of them could be friend, foe, or companion, and I'd expect them to be initiates.

My knowledge of HQ, a game I never cared for, is rusty. If there is some status below devotee and above initiate in HQ, that's a better equivalent to RQG initiate.  As for minor background characters, they are there mostly for roleplaying purposes more than anything else. You don't need stats to talk to somebody or interact with them in most nonlethal fashions. So most of 'em you hardly even need stats for, the minor background NPC's in Rattling Wind and the Apple Lane adventures book being good examples. Just by way of concrete example of what I mean, In Adventures Book Apple Lane, Brightflower, Pramble, Squinch, Kareena and Hendroste as community leaders should be initiates (higher with Kareena), and the Ulerians need to be initiates of Uleria, but I can't think of anyone else offhand there who needs to be an initiate of a deity. And, be it noted, there are definitely more folk living in Apple Lane than are mentioned or you need stats for. Given the barebones nature of Apple Lane when the PC's show up, barely having survived what the Lunars did to it, it would have considerably a higher percentage of initiates than other places, as so many lay members fled, leaving the more committed behind. 

OK, what does actually need fixing? As Akhorakhil and others have pointed out, Bless Crops, outside of gameplay, is a grossly unbalanced spell. In its current form, yes, every farmwife in Sartar would be crazy not to initiate to Ernalda. It, unlike immediate Heal Wound access, is more than worth a 10% yearly tithe, as simple arithmetic makes clear. Moreover, if every farmwife in Sartar had access to Bless Crops, the prosperity of Sartar would put the heartland provinces of the Lunar Empire to shame, to say nothing of Esrolia. So in theory it should be restricted, maybe only available to god talkers and above, Jeff please note. But whether that desirable change is made or not will have almost no impact on gameplay, because whoever plays a farmer or a herder? They make very bad adventurers indeed. BTW, maybe 10% as initiates is too low for Sartar, since all warriors really do want to be initiates of a wargod, as they really do desperately need Heal Wound. And Shield, and True Sword... Merchants pretty much do need to be Issaries initiates, healers Ernalda or Chalana Arroy, and maybe craftsmen too, depending on what runespells Gustbran and so forth have to offer. And nobles can afford the tithes, in fact can often even afford more than one cult. But the vast majority of the Sartarite population are farmers and cowherds and stickpickers, and normally could not not really afford to be initiates and pay a tithe. Maybe more like 80% than 90% however. 

3 minutes ago, Rodney Dangerduck said:

@jajagappa In defense of Glorion, I also recall somebody "official" saying that 10% was Canon for RQG.  I think that is a poor decision.  On Earth, I'd argue that more than 10% are "initiates".  Now imagine a world where gods are provably real and provide mighty life saving boons 

Only among Mormons, and not all of them, does anyone tithe 10% of their income these days.

57 minutes ago, jajagappa said:

I don't recall particular evidence of this. 

With RQG for Orlanthi, p.103-4 "Orlanth is the patron god of the Kingdom of Sartar. Most free males are initiated into the Orlanth cult" and "The most popular cult is that of Ernalda the Earth Queen, wife of Orlanth. Most free women are initiated into the Ernalda cult."

If you prefer to go back to Thunder Rebels, one of the most complete writeups on Orlanthi (and within the 20 year timeframe), p.186 and 218: "All Heortlings, male and female, are communal members of Ernalda... Except for the first two years of adulthood, women initiate into one of the aspects and subcults of Ernalda." and "All Heortlings, male and female, are communal members of Orlanth... Except for the first two years of adulthood, all men initiate into one of the aspects and subcults of Orlanth."

Both speak to the Orlanthi "All" of 85%, not a low level of 10-15%.

"Initiated into" as lay members. And initiation means *in game terms* something so different in HQ from what it is in RQG that whereas Thunder Rebels is very useful for understanding the general world of Orlanthi, on technical stuff like who is an initiate and how many, I don't think any HQ publication is relevant. For that matter, given the extreme deity and aspect profusion in HQ, I am not sure that "initiated into" doesn't translate into lay membership in RQG terms. Maybe the real equivalent of RQG initiate status is HQ being a devotee.

52 minutes ago, jajagappa said:

I think that does a real dis-service to GM's. Initiates with their associated magics are far more interesting than figures that have minor spirit magic and some weapons skills. I want Foes not Mooks.

The foes? Of course they should be initiates. They are among that 10% or a little more part of the population who are initiates, just like the PC's. It's all the background walkons who really aren't part of the story who should not be initiates.

Just now, Richard S. said:

Glorion, where are you getting the "10%" rule from?

10% is a number I vaguely remember from somewhere or other. Hey, maybe it's 15 or even 20%, whatever. As for the *concept*, as others have mentioned on this thread, it's featured in several somewhat-recent Chaosium publications (I'm old enough to consider 10-20 years ago as "recent."

2 hours ago, Akhôrahil said:

I would certainly agree that there is confusion, but I don't believe it's on my part!

1. Sartar has always, in publications across the decades been noteworthy for the high number of initiates.
2. And this is reflected in all publications so far - virtually everyone is an initiate, with Rune points and all. Like I have argued repeatedly today, when there's a statblock for "typical clan militia", "typical Sun Dome militia", and so on, and so on, they're all but universally initiates.

Anyone arguing that only 10% of Sartarites are initiates would both commit a giant retcon and have to explain how it's not even remotely reflected in the actual publications. 

The explanation is simple. In RQ2 and RQ3 yup, most Sartarites were initiates. It was only in the '90s that Greg got philosophical and seriously started thinking about what Glorantha was like on a day to day basis. As for Heroquest, it is so different ruleswise from RQ that basing what you consider to be an "initiate" in RQG on anything in Heroquest is a mistake. And besides, it's basically a failed game, which is why RQG exists in the first place. Do we need to do some sort of giant retcon on all the old pre-RQG Runequest stuff we use? Nah, why bother? 90% of the population of Sartar is irrelevant to adventures, so it makes no difference whether they are initiates or lay members. I do think that it would be good for new RQG stuff to stop having everyone in sight being an initiate, if only to focus runs better.

1 hour ago, Akhôrahil said:

These have passed editing, so at the very least, Chaosium is okay with them. And it's not just that module - the Adventures book is the same, The Smoking Ruins is the same. Nothing is different. At some point, what you actually publish is what the world is like.

It's true Chaosium is OK with them, as they don't matter. There's something worse in Smoking Ruins than that, which I am currently GM'ing. It gets the Ernalda High Holy Day totally wrong, which really ought to change the whole plot a bit. Yeah, all those irrelevant NPC's in the Adventures Book really should be lay members instead of initiates, but that's the way it got wrote out of old habit. *Relevant* NPC's, ones that the PC's have to deal with in any other way than roleplaying, are all among that 10% of the population of Dragon Pass that are initiates. As for the Adventures Book, stripping Apple Lane of most of those initiates would have required a retcon. But probably should have been done anyway, as turning the minor irrelevant characters into lay members would have discouraged players from wasting time trying to recruit them to fight the tuskriders. The most interesting minor NPC in Apple Lane is Thrilla, who I think I will turn into a lay member of Seven Mothers, makes it easier to prevent her from being lynched, which I've had to go to extra efforts to prevent in my campaign. She is quite fond of our PC Storm Bull, who being a typical Storm Bull and her not being chaotic did not realise she was a Lunar till after the wedding Ulerian bachelor party in which he and she played, er, starring roles.

22 minutes ago, Dissolv said:

Being an initiate makes a ton more sense to me than a staying a lay member.   Real life bronze age did not have a terribly high percentage of atheists, and in a magic-dense world like Glorantha it's just beyond obvious to have a very high number of people initiated and enjoying the benefits.     You have a farming dispute with your neighbor, Carl.  Carl follows Orlanth, and has 3 points of Rune magic.   You are a lay member.  A dispute over a girl, or perhaps (gasp!) a cow comes to blows.  If Carl wants to win bad enough, he can call to Orlanth for 3 points of Shield, or Lightning, or perhaps a Thunderbolt.  Or maybe fly away or Heal his Wound, whatever he knows.  This is a decisive advantage over you, if you are even in other respects.  Time to get to you next cult ceremony, if you don't want to be a second class citizen and be Carl's bi@$ forever.  

What does not make sense is a ton of initiates of "adventuring" deities.   I am talking Humakt and Storm Bull here.  These are super specialized and over represented among PCs compared to the general population.  Most people should be Barntar or Yinkin, or Odalya if male, Ernalda, Eiritha or others, if female.  Lots of choices, honestly, and even ancestor worship or spirit worship makes sense.   Combat oriented initiates should be rarer in most societies than with PC groups, with THAT being the thing that really sets apart the Sartar Orlanthi.  They should have a lot of generic male farmers who follow Orlanth, and with them comes an usually high amount of (collective) Rune magic for fighting.  Because it is always an option.   

A more sensible or ordered society might encourage, or even enforce, the peasant types to follow non-dangerous religions, and restrict the following of war gods to a class of professional soldiers or even nobles.   This is very different than the "all hands on deck" approach of the Sartarites, but even they need a broad mix of deities, even among combat age males.  Issaries, Lhankhor Mhy, Argan Agar.  These are not "combat" gods, but should have a measurable, although small, percent of the population.  A civilized culture I would expect to have a broader mix of deities followed, again with probably a class or caste bias I would not expect from the Sartarites.  But I would still expect just about everyone to be an initiate of some religion, or have a comparable alternative like ancestor worship.  

The disadvantages of not belonging are dire.  Even if you are well protected from the many Gloranthan monsters and horrors, everyday life is just so much easier with a little bit of magic.   Fix up your crops, heal your kids, cure grandma of her pneumonia.   

I disagree. Fixing the crops, healing the kids, and curing grandma of her Thunderlung are jobs for the healers, and with healing spells and Bless Crops being so powerful, can perfectly well be left for specialists, who will gladly do it for you for small fees or none as it what they enjoy and they are supported by the whole community. OTOH, Sartar is not Peloria, people are poor and poorly fed, and 10% of your income and, even worse, 10% of your time spent being an initiate is a serious sacrifice which only the truly dedicated will make. As for disputes with your neighbors leading to death and, even worse, death of cows, that is seriously frowned on. It's the other clans that folk are supposed to fight and kill, not their own clan members, and the clan healers come along on raids, and anyone on either side attacking them gets outlawed or worse. The weregild you have to pay for killing a fellow clan member would turn you into a stickpicker. 

3 hours ago, jajagappa said:

Yes, it's been noted that Orlanthi have minor holy day on Windsday.  However, that doesn't mean that there's enough of a ritual to renew your Rune points. 

Yes, that sounds right. In theory, yes you can renew rune points on a minor holy day. But only if it turns into a daylong full village celebration, which doesn't happen very often, as otherwise the workaday work of the village would never get done.

5 hours ago, Akhôrahil said:

The Rattling Wind, at least, maintains the pattern. The villagers described (fairly regular apart from a particular event in the past) have 3-5 Rune Points in different cults. Teens have 1-2 Rune Points. Another village leader has 3 Rune Points, and an Ernalda priestess has 8. A Rune-Lord has 10.  

This is all on the expected curve.

The Rattling Wind had all sorts of blunders in it, like getting the Lunar phases backward and the screwed up map. Why do most scenarios have all the NPC's as initiates? It's because they are written by people with that widespread notion which I suppose in theory should be knocked down that everyone in sight is an initiate. But why bother? All those NPC villagers and whatnot are irrelevant, giving them runespells is just flavor text, making reading the scenarios more interesting.

11 hours ago, Akhôrahil said:

First off, way more than 10% are initiates in Sartar. The conservative number is 2/3rds of adults.

However, you're right that the 100 person village likely doesn't have a priestess. They probably have a God-Talker though, or at the very least an initiated healer.  

The confusion about initiation vs. initiates seems to be very common here. Yes, "everybody" in Sartar is "initiated into" the religion of Orlanth and Ernalda--as lay members. Which does mean Universal Health Care, as the 10% of the population who actually are *initiates* into one of the cults in the pantheon all have at least one rune point, though rarely more, so there's always somebody in your village who can cast Heal Wound on you, even if there isn't an Ernalda priestess is around. And if you get sick, the priestess or god talker or if you are real lucky the Chalana Arroy initiate or even god talker comes 'round, since you are in the same pantheon as she is. That's a hell of a lot better than "Medicare for All"! And even in Sartar, getting wounded is something that happens occasionally not regularly, unless you are an adventurer, so no you don't need to put 10% of your income and time into cult obligations. Farmers who don't do that are generally more prosperous than those who do, and therefore lead happier lives.

3 hours ago, Rodney Dangerduck said:

I seriously question the "most people aren't initiated" standard.  For 1 POW you have Universal Catastrophic Health Care.  Seems well worth it, right?

You have it already if you have an Ernalda priestess in your village pretty much. Or even if there's an initiate around who likes you for that matter. It is a common runespell after all.

12 hours ago, Jon Hunter said:

I think your looking at use of rune points by adventures, not by people in the wider community, its the 2nd that falls over.

I think this adventure foscus may be our source of the problem

"People in the wider community" are not a problem, because only about a tenth of them are initiates, and initiates who aren't adventurers usually only have 1 or 2 rune points. Why? Because if they aren't adventurers, they don't really need them. The priestess blesses your crops, the healer heals you. And they have better runes and are more likely to make the roll. And, unless you are a hunter or traveling merchant or something, you almost never leave your home village if you aren't an adventurer, if for no other reason than that is pretty damn risky in Dragon Pass. BTW, If you have a weekslong adventure, that means unless you are pretty lucky, you can't spend an *entire day,* sunup to sundown, getting back those rune points, even if you happen by accident to be wandering by a shrine on that minor holy day. And, BTW, sac too much POW for runespells and the bad guys will always succeed in their spellcastings on you, and you will blow a whole lot of luck rolls. An unlucky adventurer is often a dead adventurer. Any GM who doesn't make the low POW adventurers who just sac'ed for runespells do critically important luck rolls is not disciplining the players.

And be it noted that Ompalam, the god of slavery, is chaotic too. Cool!

43 minutes ago, davecake said:

The Guide to Glorantha. Like Mallia, it may be possible to worship Ikadz in a non-Chaotic manner, but the association is certainly there

No, she didn't. I just checked to be sure. I think you are thinking of Gorgorma. 

Ah, got it. I was thinking of Gorgorma, who is definitely an anti-rape deity. Basically all antichaotic deities are antirape, some more than others. Yes, checked GoG myself, Ikadz is now a chaotic deity, which is a change from the past which I'm in favor of. Does make it easier to keep players from wanting to torture prisoners, doesn't it?

9 hours ago, PhilHibbs said:

http://www.princeofsartar.com/comic/12-the-slave-revolt/

..

The high priestess of the "Frenzied Ground," where "groups of armed slaves are often forced to fight to the death to celebrate Hon-eel." He should have just killed her, by raping her he lowered himself to her level.

7 hours ago, Darius West said:

I quite agree.  BBG is often portrayed as taking bloody revenge on rapists of earth cult initiates however.  So the fact that she also likely rapes those very cultists herself, well, a little hypocritical perhaps?

On the contrary, all the themes in DoF are maintained in the histories, and while it doesn't feature as a document in KoDP, it doesn't contradict it either.  As to rape being Chaotic, well that has been in place since 1981 with Thed in Cults of Terror.

Overall no doubt it's accurate, but it is also Lunar propaganda, with stuff tossed in to make the Orlanthi look bad, rape being the perfect example. As for BBG as implied rapists, that I am sure was a first draft error to be corrected in the published official version (Jeff please note).

6 hours ago, lordabdul said:

In this thread when people say "make a skill roll", do you mean just the act of rolling, or do you mean getting a success in the roll?

By RAW the experience check is generally only when you get a success, although things like Runes and Passions can get experience checks simply if you roleplay that Rune or Passion well.

I just go by RAW mostly because if the players roll the dice and succeed, they always enthusiastically remind me that yes, they got a success, and yes, they're going to check the little box (there's generally an accompanying giggle). I don't get any time in between to even say "but...". If I told them that they don't get a check because the roll wasn't so important, they would revolt and question why they rolled in the first place if it was inconsequential  

For people who want a different take on it, some BRP variants go with an experience check when you fail a roll -- and then if I remember it well, you get the straight +1d6 or +1d10 at the end of the adventure (no additional roll to see if you improve). The argument being that you learn more from your mistakes than from your successes. I don't have any preference here but I figured it might be interesting to somebody.

In Rayquest, for a long time the rule was you'd get an experience check if you *fumbled* a roll, not just a failure. Dropped due to GM's being too annoyed at the idea. BTW, the death of Yahoo Groups killed the main repository for the "Fire and Sword" (Rayquest) rules, up to version 6 in our old house campaign, but there is a twenty year old early version of the rules, v1, still available on the Net. http://www.orion-forever.com/firesword/ More modern versions for those who happen to be interested can be emailed by me or others.

52 minutes ago, Darius West said:

On the other hand, to be fair, the fac there are 3 anti-rape deities does tend to suggest it is more of a problem than the typical write-up suggests.  Obviously not every rapist automatically develops chaos features (though I imagine certain foul sorts might fervently hope for such an outcome), or even a chaos taint, and we know Beat Pot Aelwrin was a rapist, and we know that Gunda the Guilty's mom was raped, and we know from the Dispatch of Fadabius that the Tarsh Exiles were inveterate rapists despite the number of Barbeester Gor worshippers in their midst.  For all we know the BBGs of the Tarsh Exiles actually participated in some rapes, as they are often quite psychotic, and the anti-rape rules might be interpreted to suggest that they should protect only Earth Cultists, not the semi-Chaotic females of the Lunar religion, many of whom carry a chaos taint from casting Chaos Gift.  Consider that the pre-edition of Gods of Gloranthat mentions that BBG lay members may "wrest (forcibly obtain), whatever comfort is possible from the camaraderie of their comrades".  That subtext is pretty rapey.  Obviously any rape empowers Thed at some level, and ultimately that is likely to mean more fertile Broos in the area which is bad for the local wildlife and livestock at the very least.

The Dispatch of Fadabius goes all the way back to WF #3, before the concept of rape being chaotic was developed, and is after all Lunar propaganda to boot. I don't think we should assume its accuracy. As for Babeester Gor not being an anti-rape deity, in RQ3 BG had a specifically anti-rape spell. That line you refer to in something prepublication is likely going to disappear when GoG gets published I suspect. (at least it will if the editors are reading this thread!) Beatpot Aelwrin no doubt is Illuminated and is a Hero to boot. And raped a slavemaster in revenge after all, perhaps less inherently evil than other forms of rape, though no less chaotic. Lunars are willing to use chaos for the "greater good." And ultra-powerful Brithini sorcerors are peculiarly immune from all sorts of things.

10 hours ago, Qizilbashwoman said:

ikadz is a deity with a Chaos rune

Are you sure? According to the fandom wiki, his runes are Death and Disorder. The Sourcebook mentions him as a deity of Darkness not Chaos (p. 78). I certainly have nothing against the idea, but I don't see it in the official writings.

13 hours ago, gochie said:

Alright, so it's my bad then. Although I will place some blame on the spirit magic chapter that describes it as:

"communication with the spirits that reside in the natural energy currents of the world and is practiced in one form or another by nearly every Gloranthan culture and religion. To cast a spirit magic spell, the caster concentrates upon the spirits they have a focus with and temporarily alters the spiritual energy currents to create an effect."

I guess the name Spirit Magic, the fact that you learn spells from spirits, and that description made me think the magic actually came directly from spirits, somehow.

So to conclude, everyone in Glorantha (with POW) is like Harry Potter, and has an innate ability to perform minor magic with a wa... Foci.

Cool, thanks everyone! 

Actually, that's exactly right. No Muggles on Glorantha! Spirit magic is magic that you perform with the mana of your very own spirit, your own inherent magical nature as a Gloranthan. The spirits jmerely teach you how. Rune Magic is from your connection with the divine, sorcery from your mental understanding of the inherent magics omnipresent in Glorantha which you learn to manipulate.

Just now, Glorion said:

As to rape, I think players are perfectly capable of accepting the logic I've provided as to why their characters are not allowed to rape and will turn into broos if they do. Any that are not you should kick out of your game. Torture is evil, not chaotic, as far as I know. Ikadz is not a chaotic deity. In the current political atmosphere, fortunately, people will fully understand arbitrary prohibitions against their characters committing rape. That is not, unfortunately, the case with torture, or Jack Reacher and quite a few TV cops shows would not be on the air and Donald Trump would not be president.

Different strokes for different folks. What I would do with players who want to torture prisoners is to let them know that if they do, their soul will acquire the touch of Ikadz, and that Humakhti NPC in the party is going to try to kill you, so you'd better run.

5 hours ago, gochie said:

I disagree; Logic is everything when a player asks "why?" regarding a ruling or lore.

For example, if a player wants to torture an enemy for information that might save the lives of a dozen innocents, do I rule that that would be chaotic, or a legitimate act that some others might just consider "evil". My answer will need good reasoning or else players might just roll their eyes and lose all sense of immersion.

As to rape, I think players are perfectly capable of accepting the logic I've provided as to why their characters are not allowed to rape and will turn into broos if they do. Any that are not you should kick out of your game. Torture is evil, not chaotic, as far as I know. Ikadz is not a chaotic deity. In the current political atmosphere, fortunately, people will fully understand arbitrary prohibitions against their characters committing rape. That is not, unfortunately, the case with torture, or Jack Reacher and quite a few TV cops shows would not be on the air and Donald Trump would not be president.