Thaz

Battle Brothers is indeed excellent.  As I've said before in response to akhôrahil

Love a good Matt Easton video. 

Armouring up is great. But still crits happen. Ask Rurik. 

Bucklers are nice, I've fought with them. They're not much use vs missiles though. 

I do think we need some shield love with different varietys and possibly higher hp. There were some really interesting bronze age shields 

I really don't think we need more crunch in the general rules. I think we're about at the sweet spot. 

3 minutes ago, Kloster said:

No, you start with the base. Or, as I said, you could start with (Base Axe)+(sword skill-sword base)/10, but not much more, and that would be a burden to calculate each time. On this, the weapon categories of RQ3, where you have the same skill with all the weapons of the category is a good catch. The RQG way that says you have the highest of (skill/2) and (base + modifier) is not bad either.

Again we agree. And its interesting that the combat heads agree on the mechanics.  

1 minute ago, Akhôrahil said:

Some of a combat style will also involve fighting in the correct formation (unless it's some pure duelling style). You can probably re-use fair amounts of the drill itself.

I agree the drill is the same. It's very little to do with the weapon use though. Your drill for shield wall is essentially the same for shield + spear or axe or sword but the weapon skills are utterly different. Same Deal with 2 Handed Axe, Sword or Pole-weapons in formation...more or less the same drill skill, utterly different weapons skills. 

I think your abstracting far more than me, to a much greater timescale than a few seconds combat round.

Just now, Mugen said:

But would you say you had to start from 0 each time you used a new weapon combination ?

Some are related. ShortSword to Arming Sword...yeah very similar or at least not from scratch. 2 handed sword to Arming Sword? Totally utterly different. 

Same deal with axes. Single handed to dane axe? Utterly different. Hatchet to larger..similar. 

I think the families of weapons which RQG mostly has right...except the switch to 2 Handed Weapons from single handed but as an approximation...yeah about right. How much crunch do we want?  

12 minutes ago, Kloster said:

Having fought with sword and with axes, I think this loss is correct, because those weapons have almost nothing in common (weight, length, moves to attack and to parry). You could have a rule that says you keep, say, 1/10th of the gain you have with the other weapon, but not much more. And this would be much more too complicated, even for my tastes.

I hate to say it but yeah, agreed again. They're utterly different. Also 2 handed versions of the same thing (I'm really good with Two handed Swords, pretty darn good with single handed swords, excellent with 2 handed axes and ...well I probably wont shame myself too much with single handed axe. But pair it with a shield and ...yeah i'm a bit lost) 

3 minutes ago, Akhôrahil said:

One has to wonder why anyone would use a wooden shield when a hide shield is cheaper and lighter and just as good in all other aspects...

Exactly. I don't think they do locally. And Locally means Dragon Pass. You CAN do some really fancy stuff with the right wood and tech with shields (linden wood, viking edge catching weapons etc) or if you get into metal and early medieval (which some god or other might have handed to our bronze age folks) . But I really dont think that's what we're talking about. I need to go read Martin's books and think about shields now

29 minutes ago, Akhôrahil said:

I’m not saying it’s trivial, but doing these things are included in the presumably very widespread woodworking skill. Should a large wooden shield really be worth two cows, more than a bronze shortsword (containing a pound or more of expensive bronze) or half a year’s income for a free man? This is super expensive, especially for something that is basically expected to last for just one battle.

I think it indicates that they aren't much used in Dragon pass. Wooden Ones that is. Given your talking about a handful of copper for a Large Hide one.  Regional variations of cost, availability and type of shields and indeed armour (and maybe weapons) is something I'm thinking about

4 minutes ago, Akhôrahil said:

Planks, handle, glue, buckle (probably what costs, but will usually get reused), leather covering (a plank shield that is merely glued kinda works but quickly breaks apart), possibly metal rim (usually not in Glorantha, though?). Apart from the buckle, not really all that demanding, and you can make them at home at the stead.

Um not so much no.   Planks? How medieval. As there are no cross grain saws so your splitting lengths from trees and then using an axe or adze to shape.  Shields were mostly curved. This is quite complex. You need to steam your wood or find it the right shape to start. Glue  involves boiling down the bones etc. Leather working is a entire seperate craft. I have made shields with medieval tools and it's quite tricky, and making them useable both light enough to carry and use but resistant to damage. Harder than making a knife for example and involves many more crafts.

1 hour ago, Akhôrahil said:

And as a final point, shields are ridiculously expensive in the RQG rules. A wooden shield is a basic carpentry item

Wooden shields were quite complex historically.  I'd point out you can get a large hide shield for less than the price of a set of boots or a night drinking Barley wine....

3 minutes ago, Akhôrahil said:

And your issues under this system would be that your fighting system did not involve a shield.

Except at the time I was well practised in sword and shield. I just suck (comparatively) with shields. Which is why I gave up on them and moved to 2 Handed Weapons. And medieval period and plate armour as opposed to Viking era fighting.  I just find it a very odd concept that someone who is greased death on wheels with a sword and shield suddenly cant hit for toffee without their shield. Oh sure they'd get hit more but then they just have to be fast.

It would suit a more narrative non combat focused game perfectly I'm sure. I hate those 😉 

30 minutes ago, Akhôrahil said:

If I would do the work, I would go fully the other way, to Weapon Style skills instead, with advantages and disadvantages depending on equipment composition. I'm not sure how much it makes sense to track a legionnaire's separate skills in sword and shield.

Ugh. No. (for my game anyway). Weapon styles makes zero sense for me and makes my teeth ache. Sword and Shield are totally different skills for me. I've pretty hot with a sword but mediocre at best with a shield, especially since both of mine are currently in a shed unloved and unpractised for years. I once placed in a tourney with that style but it was my shield work that let me down. I have multiple wins and national placings under my belt for single handed and 2 handed swords.   Also if I pick up a short sword or knife or similar I'm pretty effective with it, this is modeled in the rules fairly well but not in weapon styles without some extra crunch. Does your legionary suddenly become inept offensively if his shield breaks or he's surprised in camp without it? 

37 minutes ago, Akhôrahil said:

You didn't bring up something I thought you would - how the shield materials table fails when it comes to balance and interest. As all large shields are the same, it's a no-brainer to pick the lighter. My solution is to make shield size decide what areas it covers, while shield material provides the shield hit points. It should be patently obvious that a large wicker shield will break a lot easier than a small metal buckler. So you could have a large wicker shield that covers your body well but only has 8 HP - still good against most missile weapons, but will get chopped up badly in close combat.  

I'd not be at all surprised to see a lot more information on shields and materials and so on in a later book. 

17 minutes ago, Kloster said:

After 10 years fencing, including 2 french championship (of course without shield) and several ones of medieval fencing:

1 - Yes, by far, especially if you are encumbered (by armor, for instance).

2 - Yes, by fared also to parry.. Shield are designed to protect and parry. The only other weapon I have used that is designed to parry is the Main Gauche. All other are designed to for attack, even if they are us

3 - Mostly yes, except if you are very good or if your weapon and the one of your opponent are very light (i.e. fencing foils or sword). In addition, attacking with a weapon makes the parry more difficult. This is essentially a matter of physics: If you swing your axe or broadsword, the sheer inertia makes parrying at the same time, shortly before or shortly after a very difficult thing.

 

Interesting we gave basically the same answer from different fighting backgrounds.   I'd add that there are weapons that include active defense and attack at the same time Quarterstaff and Montante (Great Sword) spring to mind but they are very much skill based. Whereas blocking with a shield is very simple. High skill with shield lets you do some very clever stuff but for safety then having a Norman Kite shield between you and that guy with a sword is a heck of a lot safer than a staff say!

5 minutes ago, French Desperate WindChild said:

I mean, in real life :

Is it easier to block with a shield than dodge the attack ?

Is it easier to block with a shield than block with a weapon ?

If you use your weapon to parry , do you have less opportunity to attack with it ?

a)Yes. By quite a lot

b)yes, by quite a lot

c)yes, unless you are very skilled.

I tend to not use shields much these days because I fight medieval in full plate armour. Without a shield I get hit a lot more but I can take it because of the plate. 

(20+ years combat experience with medieval and so on) 

6 minutes ago, Psullie said:

I feel that the simplest solution is increase the Base chance for using shields.

I think that's a fair call. And the larger the shield the easier it is to block or indeed bash with. Assuming you can lift it. Bronze Age shields got really large in places. 

I'm pretty sure they will still be used by many skilled fighters however :- First of all it's how you learn and start. Second you really don't want your sword or spear breaking. Third in most fights there's an exchange of missile weapons before and after hand to hand. You really don't want to be soaking javelins, arrows and slingstones before fighting. That hail of missile weapons is deadly if you don't have a shield. Do you even get to hand to hand without one? 

7 minutes ago, Crel said:

My understanding was that if you attack with a thing, you can't parry with that thing.

Yeah thats not RAW in the rules. It would make 2 Handed Weapons rather useless unless you also had high dodge and speaking as a HEMA type makes little intuitive sense. But hey your table your rules right? 

Shields being a defense against missile weapons shouldn't be ignored. Fast moving missile weapon users are deadly. Especially mounted archers or darkness fond trollkin slingers. 

Large and medium shields offer significant protection cheaply compared to armour. 

Shield walls are a thing. Hard to hold your spot without one. 

There are more details on shields likely to be coming but I'm not sure yet what impact that will have on rules.... 

Kalf is Ernaldori Clan of the Colymar Tribe. Hence the Snake Tattoo as described in the RQG GM's Adventure Book p18. 

1 hour ago, Ian Absentia said:

Nice!

Speaking of just-regular-folk, has there been any substantive discussion of who does the tattoos in Orlanthi society?  And for whom?  Kalf here is a stickpicker, but how does his ink stack up against others in Clearwine?  I know plenty of people of very little means who still manage to sport some impressive body art.  And, er, vice versa.

I see Kalf's Air rune took a nick.  Is he going to have that touched up, or does he spin a story about taking a scar in battle?

!i!

As a matter of fact I have been discussing that very subject earlier today. 

The snake ink is his clan marking (which I'll come back to in a later post) (aka when I remember) 

His air rune was likely done at clearwines light bringer temple, likely at his adult iniation. 

Temples maintain both tatto artists and some priests choose to learn their art. 

There's a lot more to say about the subject but there's a chasoium book in the works that may shed more light on the subject 

We're doing a deep dive on the lesser folk of Clearwine. No Runelords here. Just regular folk. Who work or not as the chance may be. Kalf here fancies himself a poet although he earns his coin with hard work as a charcoal carrier and stickpicker.  Initiate of none of the Gods and happy that way.  

This is Kalf the Carrier. Art by Kristi Jones

4 minutes ago, HeartQuintessence said:

It makes me thinking about how much emphasis is placed on the combat and how it would nessacerily be those combatants who'd win the day. It'd be the Priestess and the Priestesss making sacrifces, and praying to the Gods.

Those big battles, are just that big battles. Sure they define things, but I feel like those people going about their lives and the clergy interacting with their gods may have been forgotten.

I think we're missing the picture with the above (edited by me). The Priests and Priestess are not some separate thing. They are yes leading the worship and sacrifice and heroquests before the battle but then they are leading the fight when it happens. or the Ploughing. or the harvest. There is no separation of church and state. Your Clan Cheiftan leads you in worship and in battle and in harvest and .... or (s)he and their earth priestess partner do. 

1 hour ago, Stephen L said:

If I (cheekily) point out that I can't be the only person starting a campaign in 1625, and that as time goes on in the real world, so will in all those campaigns.  Kallyr's quest will become a moot point for an increasing number of people!

Thanks,

Stephen.

She stuffed it right up in ours, despite our best efforts. However we managed to bring her back after the Battle of Queens. Yes time moves on. YGMV and thats good

6 minutes ago, Rodney Dangerduck said:

Even in the "standard" scenarios, there's no lack of Female action heroes.  Kallyr, Leika, Nameless, Jar-Eel.  And many of the scenarios involve doing stuff to aid the Clan 

But these are 'just' action hero's. The movies not much different if its Angela or Keanu.  The Smoking Ruins in the book of the same name has a bunch of court and female protagonists but then they send everyone out to the action movie...

HW/HQ did this stuff rather well but people missed the nitty gritty action movie...but there's room for both in RQ 🙂