Thaz

8 minutes ago, Akhôrahil said:

Burying or throwing in a lake or marsh is also very historical.

Sometimes the Gods take them also. 

I tend to Skill check if it was really important if you make it. Meditation roll every morning for an hour. no check. Meditating on a tricky riddle you only get one more go at before the final answer is given and the result of a fail will be death at the hands of the sphinx.....skill check. 

Likewise I think Worship is tricky. Roll boosted to 100% after a adventure but no threat and an entire season with no bg issues...probably not. The evening before a battle and your currently on empty...yeah...even though boosted. 

Also note that Worship is a Cult skill and so can go up from occupation/cult skill checks

1 hour ago, Kloster said:

A lot. I had some 20 years ago some people in my family that lived that way, farming, cutting wood (for money, for carpentry and furniture, ...), collecting herbs and mushrooms, hunting, making their bread, and sometime even working in a steel factory (to pay for salt, coffee, oil and ammunition mainly).

Very traditional lifestyle based on Crofting. My Father made his living more or less this was till about 2000. I'm sorta hedging back to it currently as is he to supplement his retirement. An aside but as I see it very much the independent Oralanthi lifestyle which as a lot of personal freedom still mixed with Clan obligations. 

3 minutes ago, Joerg said:

There are other distant pursuits for a clan - resource-gathering panning for metal, digging for gems or high-quality clay, cutting specially-grown branches for purpose carpentry (or barrels, or arrows and javelins, or collecting bast for ropes and seams, or simply for basket-making), collecting truffles, gathering nuts for winter fodder (acorns, beechnuts, chestnuts, hazel), collecting mushrooms, flowers, herbs, roots in the wild for all manner of purposes (medical, flavour, dyeing, scents).

It would be interesting to know the exact duties and tithes of tenant farmers. How many side jobs can they get away with?

I think of the Orlanthi as much more like Scottish Crofters than tenant farmers. They do rent the land. But it comes with certain rights and traditions that go both ways and access to common land. So "Your" sheep and cows are out with the clan herd, possibly you spend some time herding/shepherding or maybe your brother or son or daughter does. And you plough. And You help with harvest. And you gather nuts. And you hunt a bit. And some people craft some and do these other things as well.  And today maybe you'll go gather acorns or hunt in the woods. Or do some weeding. Or make a spear. or you might not. This lack of specialism makes Orianthi very adaptable but it frustrated the heck out of Lunars who wanted to maximise production not freedom. 

3 hours ago, BlindPumpkin said:

Ha! That is an interesting point. I will enforce the "no moving and shooting" rule more strictly from now on then, to further illustrate the advantages of using a different ranged weapon.

Think of archers and slingers more like World War 2 and earlier tanks. They can shoot. And they can move. But not at the same time. 

2 hours ago, Joerg said:

I did say that doing your religious obligations on those days is a thing, but I also say that attendance to the services held by the priests or the local caretaker of the shrine is optional.

I do think that weekly worship is more or less mandatory, but weekly communal worship is not. The individual is expected to observe religious practices. The individual is not obliged to do so under supervision of the priest - the relationship to one's primary deity is very much a personal affair. Intercession of godtalkers or priests can be helpful, but is not required for the weekly stuff.

The initiate has their personal uplink to the deity. In RQ rules that is the point of POW sacrificed upon initiation into the cult. And yes, that sacrifice gives the initiate a rune point, and further rune points acquired will deepen that uplink.

Weekly services are a different entity, IMO. There will be sacrifice - some lesser routine sacrifice (maybe just some poultry), or sacrifices in order to make a bargain with the deity, asking for a blessing - which may mean prompting the godtalker or priest to take action on behalf of the petitioner and the deity. Summoning a cult spirit, for instance.

The rules talk about 20L for a rune point spent. This sacrifice and creating enough of a crowd for the holy person to regain the rune point spent on behalf of the petitioner in the service is how I interprete such a weekly communal service. Some thing will always come up, and the local poor will be willing to attend for some meat rather than just groats.

In all likelihood, people won't have to ask. Privacy in Heortling society is not much within the household, and the grapevine will carry news faster than a casting of Wind Words can. Gossip will carry these news.

There are plenty of jobs which will take people away from these activities. Often jobs that the community prioritizes over their attendance. Nobody expects the charcoal burner to attend that much while there is a batch of hot coal simmering in the forest. The poor guy will probably wish to come, as his food allowance isn't the best, and will be willing to walk the extra mile just for something substantial into his belly.

The nursing mother is expected to do so during the rites. Especially if it is an Earth rite.

Herders will be absent from the weekly communal rites for much of the year. They will have their private rites in their small communities in the hills, probably taking the various genii locorum as intercessors as they change pasture. While it may be only a few hours brisk hike or cross-country run to their home stead or the clan center (may very well be a few days if they use the high valleys of the Quivin or Storm Mountains or places atop sharp ridges or plateaus), they have an important job to do that they cannot abandon.

In Esrolian society, this is cause for scorn and low reputation as these individuals spend way too much time outside of direct grandmother control. In the freedom-loving society of the former Hendriki clans that make up a significant portion of the Sartarites, this kind of life has quite high reputation, and the consequences are well accepted.

In harvest situations, the rites will be held well before or well after work on the fields or pastures reserved for hay making is done. Someone performing a lengthy sacrifice while the rest of the people sweat cutting, shifting or carrying cut grass will be seen as an idiot - a selfish and self-centered person, unless the sacrifice deals with even more urgent stuff (like life-and-death health concerns).

Clans have quite variant settlement structures. The neighbors of the Telmori will have rather fortified steads, and their herders may have hurdles for their beasts over night with defenses like thorny hedges, nasty spikes etc. creating a defensive bonus. Less organized wild beasts or dragonewt neighbours ask for a mobile response rather than fortification.

Looking at hamlets like the one in The Rattling Wind, I don't have the impression that these folk mingle much with the people in Fairjowl (the central settlement of the Antorlings) outside of clan festivals. The lack of fortification may be a reaction to having dragonewts as neigbours - trying to keep them out may cause more problems than them wandering through the hamlet and picking up an occasional chicken or similar.

That hamlet may have a small spot for communal worship, but not enough for an actual shrine as per RQG rules. Like with the herders, that may be different if they have the aid of a local minor deity or spirit associated with the cult taking over much of the role a godtalker or priest would take, with a local initiate acting as intercessor with such an entity. By inviting in "wild" worshipers, the congregation might actually get enough magic for an actual worship service ever now and then, with actual sacrifice beyond what you describe as pot luck below.

As per RQG, hamlets of less than 50 people (including some surrounding outlier cottages) have no business maintaining a permanent shrine. Their acts of devotion at an actual shrine will have to be done via votive figurines etc. most of the time, something alluded in the RQG rules.

There will be weekly pious acts. How much of that will be in the shape of a service, or in the shape of a private sacrifice, is a different question.

And yes, I think discussing this is a good exercise to explore the mindset of this "Bronze Age" culture.

The necessary preparation time for this act of cooking will make a communal activity last for a couple of hours. You don't start your service with hacking off a few chicken heads and hanging them to bleed out before even having a communal invocation, ritual (and very mundane) cleansing observances, etc.

As is meeting up in the drinking hall or the steam bath after sunset. The Romans managed to make the visit of the lavatory a social interaction...

They replace birthday parties or visits to the cinema, theatre, concert, whatever.

One aspect of those weekly meetings is training for the big events - ritual dance instruction, getting the costumes and masks into shape, memorizing the words or the tunes. All of these are quite social activities.

All of these take up a lot of time, and the demands of the agricultural year tops the ritual demands (to the extent that the ritual demands within sowing, irrigation or harvesting time will involve work in the fields or ditches. Ritual as well as practical.

Many many excellent points here.

I do think looking at how very remote steadings (which I dont think are that common, it IS a dangerous place) and transient populations worship is really interesting. I think one answer maybe ancestor worship by these remote or transient types. By bringing in the dead as part of worship you get a numbers boost.  

I also think that some gods cults may be set up to cater to this. Sanctify isn't just there for players. God talkers and holy people/shaman exist in the community. So when the herds are taken up to the high pastures (as the Grazelanders make extensive use of and also sheep herders and cattle herds in Orlanthi culture) some of these will go with. I would expect the high mountain camps of both peoples to conduct worship regularly. Sky and Storm gods all love the high places and portable or regularly established high altitude camps for the herders may well have shrines. A fair chunk of the community will be spending it's time out of the lowlands for Fire/Earth seasons at least. Maybe Sea Season as well?

4 minutes ago, Joerg said:

All of these take up a lot of time, and the demands of the agricultural year tops the ritual demands (to the extent that the ritual demands within sowing, irrigation or harvesting time will involve work in the fields or ditches. Ritual as well as practical.

I think it's more your religion (or the communities at least) does not top the ritual demand but instead drives it. There is no separation of church and state. You don't alter your religion to suit your agricultural needs but more your religion says "And now it's time for us to bless the fields" and yes as you say it will involve work in them. 

1 minute ago, BlindPumpkin said:

I think that could vary depending on wether or not you think a full, day long worship ritual is required for one to reap the benefits of a worship roll. Consider this: maybe the village doesn't get together every Clayday to perform a full-on worship ritual, but if a villager for some reason is looking to get some special blessing before the next holy day, or the village is under unusual duress and is in urgent need of their god, the priest may hold a ritual during a day of minor yet some significance to their deity, a minor holy day.

I think both interpretations are valid.

I think there are some assumptions in there I would like to challenge. 

First off I'm pretty sure that spending the entire day in worship _isnt_ spending the entire day standing around in temple singing or whatever. I think it includes the hobnobing with friends, eating the meal, preparing it as an act of worship, all part of the deal. 

Benefits of worship? For most people attending the worship they are not going to have burnt through rune points every week or so. So no they don't need to spend the entire day on it but likely do spend most of the day on it. It's effectively their day off for the week. Their Holy day. Holiday. 

Again people are thinking about this far far too much like a transactional deal rather than a religious faith and social event. 'If I don't get to turn water into wine myself why should I go to church?' is not an attitude you'd have found much in 19th Century rural Europe/North America. Are we honestly saying we think the Orlanthi farmer is going to say "Ack I've got time in the bank with Himself so I dont need to go" Your looking at worship as some onerous task that must be done to get the goodies rather than the thing that farmer or housewife or hunter looks forward to all week as a day off the hard grind and a chance to catch up with their peers and get the gossip and .....

This is different if there's some crisis or major event going on. But I've known farmers that will allow a crop to sit while in desperate need of harvest because they had to go to church on Sunday even in my lifetime....

11 minutes ago, Akhôrahil said:

Correct. RQG is unusual for an RPG in that thrown weapons are really good, both because they don't have movement restrictions like this (RQG skirmishers had better use thrown weapons!) and because you get half DB.

I also think it's pretty realistic in this. As Dissolve says above it's pretty hard to shoot on the run even with modern weapons at anything other than point blank ranges (and I have some experience of IPSC and CQB myself). You put your entire body into pulling a bow or using a sling. I'd happily allow Move-Then-Shoot or the reverse subject to strike rank concerns. I would allow I think readying an arrow or sling stone or javelin-to-atlai on the run with a SR penalty and a reduction of speed. More load on the move rather than run I suppose. Someone with a High Dex could probably move pretty fast and load but not the same speed they could flat our sprint if that's all they were doing. How complex do we want combat rules to be though? I think the existing covers it pretty well and models what we know of real life fairly well for our needs. 

This has two impacts on skirmishers :- Yes I agree if your running towards the enemy thrown weapons are great (not so much if you are running away I would contest) but it also makes mounted skirmishers really deadly. And frankly mounted archers are! Praxian light cav and Pentians are feared for a reason as were the Mongols

27 minutes ago, Elcid321 said:

1.- would it be possible for orlanth and the red moon to find peace? and how?

2.- what would be the effects in the world if peace was managed?

Hmm are you asking about Lunar and Oralthi characters or the entire civilisations/cultures?

In either case. Yes. IMHO. Both cultures have large elements of compromise built in and a history of making a friend (or servant) out of the enemy. Now this is not how the Hero Wars are destined to go according to King of Sartar and various other sources. Who gives a damn about that tho' right? Your Game Must Vary. Sure. It would take something really epic, the two cultures have really gone head to head (which seems untypical of them both to be honest) after generations of conflict. The Lunar Empire pretty much bred an entire generation of nobles and soldiers to conquer Dragon Pass. But Player Agency is a thing. If they set their minds it, working with perhaps great powers like Cragspider and the Feathered Horse Queen they might find a way. It would be epic and involve many HeroQuests and Diplomacy and likely a lot of heads smashed together and Kallyr, Argrath, Herrick and Jar-El are going to be problems....but hey why the heck not right? The right people die, the right people get converted to the cause, compromise! "There is always another way"

Peace between individuals or even love?  "Would you believe in love at first sight? Yes I'm certain it happens all the time" 

What would the world of Glorantha look like afterwards? Well, that would be for your game to find out no? Did one Absorb the other (I can see Argrath absorbing the Lunar Empire by fire and the sword or by peaceful means. Likewise we know what a bloody violent Lunar take over and victory would look like, but should the Red Goddess and Orlanth mary say? )

7 minutes ago, Akhôrahil said:

Related issue: to what extent do people in Glorantha know that they are "low on Rune Points" and "need a refresh"? They obviously don't count the points (Paulis Longvale notwithstanding), but they are presumably aware that worship is necessary to replenish rune magic. Can they tell when the tank is getting low? In this case, they should do minor worship whenever they need to fill up.

In my game rune points show in the brightness and clarity of the foci Runes and markings on your body. But more importantly the character knows their connection to their gods is weak. Obviously I don't know when personally a psychomotor vigilance task test would show scientifically that I am tired and need to take a knee from the fight but over the years I've figured out when I cant go on any further and I'd be taking a desperate risk . Your characters knows how much magic they can hurl about be it spirit or rune and knows when the tank is getting empty or is indeed empty. Character dont know how many hitpoints they have either but they know when they're gravely injured or had the crud beaten out of them

On 6/11/2020 at 1:53 AM, GAZZA said:

Many adventures take longer than a week - indeed, many adventures the travel time alone is more than a week. These become unreasonably complicated to schedule if, in a party of 4, there are 4 different minor holy days that have to be respected each week or risk invoking spirits of retribution.

<snip>

So at least IMG I'm going to rule that for initiates, you are required  to attend the High Holy Day and Sacred Time events, you are expected to attend Holy Day events, and you are merely welcome to attend minor holy day events. That seems fair to me, while still being reasonably playable.

I agree having the impests show up for missing a minor weekly holy day is harsh. Missing all of them perhaps. I think it would just get raised eyebrows in your community unless it there were a good reason. "Varlanth? Oh he's hiding up in the hills somewhere since raiding the rival clans lands and they swore blood vengeance on him' , ' Idressa is off tending to her nieces family, their youngest slipped and broke his leg and took sick'. 'That band of young un's ? The Chief asked them to look into the cattle raids....I hope they find whoever took our best cow'

51 minutes ago, Kloster said:

Remove the 1 adventure per season, and replace it by 3 weeks of extraordinary activities per season. This solve several problems: The one you noticed and the very short duration adventures. It also force players (and the GM) to plan the longer adventures.

It's a good way of looking at it. I think we need some restrictions on regaining RP, otherwise players just burn all of theirs in the first fight. The constant hoarding of Rune Magic made RQ2 and 3 poorer places IMHO but there should be a reliance on spirit magic first and RP gets used for serious challenges. Having to be a little cautious because recovery is handy. Recently my players had to play things VERY differently having burnt all of their RP in one situation and then encountering a larger threat elsewhere.  

17 hours ago, Joerg said:

LIke I said, I think that the weekly rites are more or less optional. You go there if you want some meat you can't usually afford, or if you want a specific blessing, or if you want to support a specific blessing.

Likewise, the priesthood will have an idea how long it takes to transform a holy sacrifice into a palatable meal, and they will shrewdly have adjusted their ceremony to make the best out of that time.

A piglet for fifty will be no more than a few mouthful per person. A feast if all you can afford is thin gruel, but everyday food for a free household.

I think you've got two points there that contradict yourself. I in no way think that weekly worship is optional, it's not mandatory per se, but every one attends unless there is a really pressing reason not to. A sick child. A cow in calf. People will ask why so and so inst here today and offer help, sympathy or scorn as a result. This is the core of oralthi Cultural society and everyone attends their local shrine on their weekly holy day in most cases. Now I dont think they treck into the City or Clan tula temple, I think they attend their local village shrine which isn't far off. People don't live far from these as the world is a dangerous place. People live in villages with walls not on remote farms by and large. Villages have shrines. walking an hour or so to your village? Normal. 

Your right about the sacrifices being eaten of course and the congregation is going to be trying to make sure they feed themselves. Looks a lot like a pot luck to me.

Also I'd agree that the split of faiths has an interesting factor. Mostly the women will meet on one day, the men on others depending on their craft and inclinations. These will resemble sewing circles, lodge meetings and the dreaded women's institute. They really are the glue that binds the community together. And of course having all the farmers off one afternoon has less impact on households that _everyone_ and so on. 

These weekly small rituals of worship are what binds villages and steadings together.

The high holy and seasonal holy days are what binds the Clan and Tribe together and when you renew your oaths to your Chief and the Wyter and are much bigger and grander affairs. 

2 minutes ago, Joerg said:

I would have expected Vingkot's wedding to the daughters of Tada to have occurred on Grizzly Peak rather than in Korolstead. Or did you mean the wedding of Orgovalte's grandparents, Orlanth and Ernalda?

I did indeed, cheers for the catch. 

To be honest I took a look at the Intro mech and looked at the already established history my players characters had with Lekia (having been through the Defense of Apple Lane, The Dragon of Thunder Hills and the Battle of Queens and just skipped that part. Three of the characters just got dreams of the place thanks to their initiation to Orgvale Summer. Her Brother built it and it was where her Mother and Father married after all.... 

1 hour ago, Shiningbrow said:

Very interesting!!!

Although, I was meaning that now the main spirit loses the spell, so can't be re-summoned to teach the same spell to a different person, as previous editions.

I think that's taking our conjecture here and applying it to the rule set as a difference to previous editions. The current RQG rules make no reference to the mechanics of what happens to the spirit. At the moment what we have are some peoples house rules/interpretations of what Greg said applied to current rules. 

Edit :- And we may see far more on this in the Cults or Magic books incoming. Some of these are great ideas but they are just that. 

42 minutes ago, Joerg said:

I would expect weekly lesser sacrifices to be a lot less popular as the food is going to be a lot less, and less high quality, too.

People attending are likely to be the poor who will take the less quality "feast" still as an improvement over their own ration of gruel. Other attendants may come for specific sacrifices or blessings.

Because attending church on Sunday was something believers just get bored with? Gods do actual miracles. Plus you get to dress up in your best and see all your neighbours and have a decent meal (cos sacrifices go somewhere). Not to mention you want to be thought of as a good person when you need something. 

It's going to be a highlight of the week. Along with market day 

27 minutes ago, Leingod said:

Unless one of them is a presiding Rune Priest or something, yeah, they don't need to be there on every single holy day.

Although their god will be fine with that your priest may not of you keep sloping off. 

If you're supposed to be strict church your pastor may raise an eyebrow of you start skipping church on Sundays. 

If you are doing stuff for the church not so much. If you are off doing something unapproved of..... 

Its not just chins it lots more of MOAR INK EVERYWHAR (which btw I think is cool)

55 minutes ago, Akhôrahil said:

Also, articulated gauntlets would seem to be remarkably high-tech for Glorantha.

Yeah I'd expect gauntlets to be basic if at all. 

Although glorantha tech does not have to equal earth tech for bronze age. 

1 hour ago, soltakss said:

How much does padding protect you from the cold? Or rather, do gloves worn under gauntlets keep your hands warm?

The padding keeps you overly warm. 

Normally we're talking several layers of blanket sewn into a jacket or equivalent. Wearing armour without padding is a terrible idea and basically never happened. Or the armour had built in padding. 

My arming jacket sat behind me is over an inch thick wool 

32 minutes ago, soltakss said:

Gloves might be a problem, but large mittens over gauntlets should be fine. 

I have never worn armour, so it is hard to tell. 

Gauntlets already have gloves inside them. You need padding to stop the concusive shocks transmitting straight to skin and hurting. 

7 hours ago, David Scott said:

I always use @Michael Cule's Rumble at Tin Inn map from White Dwarf 33 (September 1982) .

Amazing issue. Also in Best of Scenario's 3 along with Irillian 😍

Having worn a lot of armour in all sorts of weather :- Cold weather is quite nice. Sure the metal cools down but you wear heavy padding under it and frankly with a good cloak over the top..not a real issue until it gets really really cold. I've been out in a snowstorm in full plate and it was fine. Hobnailed boots and we're good. Stick to exposed metal and frostbite turf and even then I'd be okay with that as your skin shouldn't be touching metal. 

Heat now. Well thats another story. I would not want to be in full plate in a hot dessert. Full Summer in England almost killed me. 

1 hour ago, French Desperate WindChild said:

yes sure

that's why my main concern in RQG is roll dices to determine characterics. Here I use house rule (dispatch points) then players can choose  what may become their characters.

Pretty sure that's the current rqg rule. Roll then assign