JonathanQuaife

Really enjoyed this thread. Personally "Engroni" does a lot more for me than "Knights".

An entirely cogent and reasonable explanation, and more aligned to canon than my own. But also a bit too orthodox for my taste. I prefer a little more juice, a little more of the trickster mixed in. Explanations that leave room for doubt offer us an opportunity to bring something interesting to our games. That said, I didn't share the above to convince anybody that it's "right", just to manifest a perspective that came to me when I first read KoS tweny-odd years ago!

FWIW, I've always seen Yelmalio and Elmal as distinct but overlapping deities. I don't subscribe to the trend in RQG towards a simplistic syncretism across various gods. The question is made more interesting by parallel gods: Tharkantus, Daysenerus, Antirius. And of course there's the pericope in King of Sartar which credits the revelation of the name Yelmalio to Munro. And finally there is this rather brilliant piece by Ian Cooper. === So, for me it goes like this: Daysenerus was clearly revealed by Nysalor, and it seems reasonable to assume that this deity was the foundation of the militarised Sun Done temples. One of this deity's appellations must have been Tharkantus, since the sources seem to imply a drift in identification from one name to the other. The location of the Sun Dome Temples suggests an affiliation of this Daysenerus-Tharkantus cult with Theyalan culture: perhaps a light deity for the Theyalans revealed by divine Nysalor. Such an affiliation explains the cult's adoption into the EWF, an adoption linked to the religion's appearance at Mo Baustra in Prax. As a newly-revealed light god, Daysenerus-Tharkantus was not a sun. But the mingling of Theyalan and Dara Happan cultures among the Theyalans dwelling in the vicinity of the Oslir in the era of the Second Council did give rise to another and a different deity, and this deity was indeed a re-envisioning of their sun god. Their sun, Elmal, had never left the sky, but had endured on the shoulder of Kero Fin, suffering through the Greater Darkness. As such the Second-Council Theyalans recognised an affinity of their own divine sun with one of the Dara Happan sun gods, Antirius, the immortal part of Yelm, whose disk, unable to reconcile with death, appeared on the Eastern horizon even as it set on the Western rim. For these Theyalans Antirius and Elmal alike were the enduring sun, the labouring or ailing sun - yelm-ailio. Like "Tharkantus", "Yelmalio", was at first an appellation, not a name, and it may have, at one time, referred to an aspect of the sun associated with the planet Lightfore. For the hill tribes who resisted Nysalor, the lowlanders' syncretised adoption of the Dara Happan sun, Antirius, was another manifested evil of the Gbaji Empire: despising this association, they clung to and celebrated their older Elmal traditions. Centuries later, the Dragonkill changed everything. The old Tharkantus temples were all but destroyed, clinging on in one or two isolated temples in Holay and Aggar, and in Prax, at Mo Baustra. The Oslirian Theyalans remembered their sun as the enduring sun and sometimes ailing sun, sometimes remembered as Yelmalio but more often called by local names - Brightshield, Gutburner, the Shining One, Skypath, Sun Horse, Treeburner, and so on - and although their sun rites and magic were replete with Dara Happan influences, this god's direct identification with Antirius was all but forgotten. The highland Theyalans in Heortland and the wildlands of Aggar and beyond still recognised Elmal as their sun. Both Theyalan groups differentiated their sun god from the Emperor, another sun, struck down by Orlanth, and called "Yelm" by the Dara Happans. However, perhaps because of the deity's association with Lightfore as well as the sun itself, as the Pelorian Sevening Revelation began to influence surrounding lands, for the Oslirian folk, their sun god deity was increasingly seen in terms of a 'son of the sun' and as an attribute of the sun disc, rather than as the sun disc itself. The sun disc itself became synonymous with a more literalistic understanding of the Dara Happan deity Yelm. By the time of the Sartar dynasty, the lowland sun customs and magic, by now quite distinct from the rites and powers of the Elmal cult, had begun to influence the practices of the less conservative upland clans in the vicinity of Dragon Pass, bringing the lowlanders' sun - and son of the son, Yelmalio - in conflict with the highlanders' sun - Elmal. This reflected other trends, for example the growing popularity among the Sartarite clans of lowland luxuries such as horse breeds, wines and exotic cloths; and the arrival of gentle proselytes who spoke of liberation and the liberating goddess. The initial coexistence of these varied Theyalan sun traditions soon descended into bitter controversies and feuds that threatened to divide the nascent Sartarite kingdom. Tarkalor brought the answer to this problem in the form of the wild prophet from Prax, Munro. In the Sartarite tribes where the lowlanders' customs were gaining ground, communities were riven. At the same time, Tarkalor needed troll-fighters to bolster his war against the Kitorings-folk and thus his ambition to win the seat of the Sartar dynasty in Boldhome. Munro's revelation was the undoing of the Kitorings. He saw the many suns, and understood the place of Yelmalio-Tharkantus-Daysenerus among them - sometimes as the sun itself, and sometimes not. In this sense he was perhaps the first to embolden the appellation "Yelmalio" in definitive cosmological terms. Such a bold manifestation of a new Truth bought him the support of the Sartar Kings. When the defeat of the Kitorings was complete, Munro settled their lands with his followers from Mo Baustra and with men and women from the Sartarite clans who chose to accept the new god and move away from their old Elmal traditions. This project of colonisation named its desmene Vanntar or Vaantar. Proselytes, and perhaps Munro himself, soon travelled to Holay and to Prax, and waning Sun Dome Temples were restored or reinvigorated through their recognition of the new religion. === I think this is much more interesting, offering more complexities and nuances in a Glorantha game than a simplistic Elmal = Yelmalio paradigm. I actually wrote qab about Munro's revelation as a storytelling element in the background for the Greydog clan - this will be published one day. Here are some highlights: === Munro’s Vision of Many Suns Each of these was my trial and my testing. First I was in the centre; I saw the innocent sun. Elmal-Orvorion: called Primolt, who lived as a child when the world was new. An angel called to me and I shed my robes and stood naked; all the gods could see my within. Then the world went askew and I saw the bloody sun. Elmal-Bloodbaned: called Ozarm, cut down. An angel called to me and I shed my blood and tears for the God; I thought I would die from the thirst that was unquenched. The world was dark, there was no sun. This was Krajlkelmal: called Kazkurtum, the Impossible Shadow of the Orb. An angel called to me and I gave up my soul; I wandered lost and in terror. I was below with the dead sun: I followed him there. Elmal-Grimortis: called Ajaf, Majesty in Darkness, the Spirit Sun. An angel called to me and I cut out my heart for the God; heartless I feasted among the dead. I was among those who danced with joy at the eastern gates when our god rose again. Elmal-Theyaling: called Daysenerus, the Lightbringing God. An angel called to me and I sought the kernel of my hatred; I burned it away so that I could dance with His retinue. Then the Sun Horse spoke to me: the Glorious Golden One. The Pure One: he called me to the south. In the south I basked in the glory of the Ripening Sun. Elmal-Orfecundus: called Yelotralas, Barley Father. An angel called to me and I was tested: I became the father of many children. In the west I honoured the growing-old of the Sun and the Earth. Elmal Earth-Husband: called Tharkantus, the Wise and the Bounteous. An angel called to me and I sat in judgement: the Goddess was pleased and I knew her. I passed to the dim north and kept watch with our god against the Vadrudings and night-monsters. There I found Elmal Watch-Thane: called Asartcha, the Vigilant. An angel called me and I took up my spear; I struck down the Harbinger and his legion. Then, from within, the Bright One spoke to me, the Enigmatic. With beautiful words he tested me so that I looked upwards, where previously I could not, and viewed the Xenith. There I honoured the feet of the God. Elmal-Solaring: called Royal Yelmalio, the Brilliance of the Orb. He called me and I blessed My Lord and I said, “How can this be?” And with a voice of ten-thousand myriads of trumpets and ten-thousand myriads of cymbals he spoke to me and said: “I am all of these and none of them.” === When the council was convened Tarkalor asked Ingol to sit with him in the Hall of the Tribes. I sat with them too, and was glad of the opportunity to gather news from the prince regarding the war in the south. Tarkalor said that the Hendrikings were divided among themselves, and that some were suspicious of the aid that Tarkalor and his brother were lending from Sartar. Tarkalor also mentioned that King Jarolar had been offering the Elmaling Sartarite clans coin for their help against the darkness people, but when he had dragged his feet over the question of the new Elmal from the north they had refused to help him. It seemed the problem that Ingol had described among the Vantaros clans had come to roost among the Elmalings in Sartar also. Then the council convened. The discussion was long. The principle debate was led by two priests from Jonstown, one was named Varilmar, and the other was called Varthanis. Varilmar was saying that so many customs had come from the north that the Jonstown Elmal temple no longer served to honour the Sun Horse but rather some other blasphemous god of the Oslir. Varthanis denied that there was any problem and trivialised Varilmar’s complaint as a lot of fuss over some of the temple dignitaries using gold icons in their rituals. Prince Jarolar and his lawspeakers generally seemed more sympathetic to Varilmar than they did to Varthanis—I must say I agreed with Varilmar too and shouted against Varthanis when we were called—but things changed when the funny-looking stranger Munro spoke up. You can read his words inscribed on the golden doors of the Sun Dome Temple if you ever go there, although as I said earlier, in those days there was no Sun Dome Temple. Munro seemed sympathetic to what Varthanis had to say, and opposed Varilmar. He said that he had seen the sun worshipped in many lands and that there were many suns worthy of worship. He said that his god was the most powerful of the suns and that this had been revealed to him in a vision when he was in the land of Prax. After this Munro began to recount his vision. When Munro had finished speaking it was Tarkalor who spoke next: he said that there was a need for Munro’s god to fight the Kitorings in Hendrikiland and that if his god was more powerful than the others then Munro should declare the deity’s name and prove that his power was greater than Elmal’s. In this way those who fought against the trolls could invoke the god’s name and magic against Vurgunzol and the darkness people in the south. But many of those Elmalings who supported Varilmar shouted with anger and said that Munro was offending Elmal and would cause their god to abandon the people. That was when Munro pledged to reveal the name and show the proof of his god and to fight for Tarkalor if the Prince in return would grant Munro and those who would choose to follow his god the lands that would be taken from the Kitorings. Tarkalor said that the lands could be Munro’s if it was the hand of Munro that conquered them, and if King Jarolar permitted it. Tarkalor spoke with such charisma that it almost seemed unnecessary to seek the consent of the King. But anyway Jarolar said that he would agree to this if Varthanis and those who argued for him would join with Munro’s tribe and leave their own, thus ending the strife in Jonstown and among some of the other clans. After Munro whispered something to him, Varthanis agreed, and when all was said and done Munro revealed the name and proof of his god. I was surprised that he did it out loud, in everybody’s hearing. He did it in the middle of the day, in the courtyard of the Palace of Kings. There was an altar made from cedar wood and Munro first offered sacrifices of pure-white bulls to all the Suns. Then he called upon Varilmar to invoke his god and beg him for a sign so that all who were present understood that Elmal stood among the people. Varilmar called upon Elmal and when he did the clouds in the sky were torn apart and the Sun Horse was there looking down upon us for all to see. Some people with the sight said that Elmal’s storm brothers moved among the crowd. When the invocation was spoken, flame took up on the altar for the god to burn and receive the sacrifices. Now after this Munro stood at the second altar and named his god. He said: My God is One God My Sun is One Sun And his name is Elmal-Yelmalio-Tharkantus. And when he said this the air trembled and the sky darkened, but the sun stood bright. There was a sound like a thunderclap and the second altar was wrapped in a bright flame with a great heat that consumed the sacrifices like a hungry beast. I remember how people were struck by the power of Munro’s words. But the real miracle was not what everybody saw, but that everybody who heard Munro’s words understood, so that even some of those who had opposed him changed their minds and joined his tribe. This was the beginning of the new religion of Yelmalio.

Absolutely. The presentation of the Lunar Empire (and indeed Gloranthan factionalism generally) tends to be somewhat monolithic. Against that, we know the Empire is riven by intrigue and Dart Wars between clans. When you begin to consider the ramifications of that, many options present themselves.

I read this entire thread. 30 minutes of my life gone... 😭

Ancient magics have indeed been posited as a Lunar motivation for the conquest of Prax. Another suggested motivation was access to the sea to facilitate trade to Kralorela and the East. Access to the sea in Prax failed, and arguably it did in Kethaela too: the Lunar occupation of Karse coinciding with the arrival of Harrek and the Wolf Pirates. (Not to mention reticence on the part of the Eastern peoples to welcome ships from the West.) So, even after the invasion of Prax, trade from the Empire with Kralorela remained dependent on the Etyries Caravan from Oraya, which was controlled by the MolariSor Clan. One of the key Clans in the context of Dragon Pass and Prax is of course the EelAriash. One might speculate, therefore, that Pavis offers the EelAriash the opportunity to outdo the MolariSor by operating a bigger and better trade caravan to the East from Pavis... led, perhaps, by Kost the Tracker. I do have beef with the accelerated hero wars timelines that we have these days. In Greg's earlier plans, Argrath's arrival was in the 1640's, and the events of King of Sartar played out over 100 or so years. A longer Lunar occupation in Pavis gives much more leeway to develop more interesting story arcs... A huge endeavour such as a massive trade caravan would be years in the making... and very interesting as a game theme, since it would make everybody rich!

Ian, you did share some of this with me. I thought it was great, and it's interesting also to see some of the comments on this thread (I hope there are more!) One comment I would make would be not to dispose the campaign too much towards an "anti Lunar" outcome. Much more fun if your players can go either way. The Sun County info I shared with you had some suggestions around multi-faceted Lunar factions and culture. Something like this would allow for different approaches towards the city cult (and towards other non-Lunar factions) so that plot dynamics can remain sympathetic towards one faction's motivations or another, even for Lunar-sympathisers.

Can we get to see this in some form? It sounds excellent!

There are lots of examples of contradicting myths ... but these are best seen as mysteries than contradictions, so they're just part of the gig. From memory, the example that springs to mind are the two stories that describe the slaying of Aroka - one featuring Orlanth and the other (IIRC) Vadrus.

As noted in response to David's point - any editorial decision has a justification. That fact doesn't make the decision the most interesting option.

So, yes, that is an editorial choice that's been made. It's just a particularly boring one. 😀 A Buserian star gazing cult would be much more interesting.

Well, of course you could take that perspective. For me it pretty clearly sets out that Buserian magic allows his worshippers to see the "night-time" sky in the daytime...

Buserian and Lhankor My are clearly different deities. Here's one of Greg's allusions to the former... "Erindamus is little worshipped, but serves various Dara Happan gods in several myths, especially those of hunting. Erindamus is little-known to any except the Buserian Star Seers. Erindamus was set into the southern sky by Dayzatar. Myths say when dogs were tamed by Yelm or Lodril the star disappeared. However, the Star Seers can see stars in the daytime and know that Eridamus only rises in daylight, and is invisible." So here there are clear references to how followers of Buserian approach the world - by looking at the sky - and to their magic - which allows them to see the stars in daylight. Both of these things are a country mile from what we know about Lhankor Mhy. In addition, treating LM and Buserian as the same deity is sooooo *boring*. Glorantha has never been about dumbing down: instead the ironies and ramifications of contradictions and unexpected outcomes are a key theme. What seems inconceivable often turns out to be true for somebody, somewhere...

FWIW - I am pretty sure I read somewhere that the Lunar attack on Sartar in 1602 benefited from a MoLAD contest - with key players being drawn away from Sartar to the Holy Country... this may have been in the Dragon Pass rulebook itself, or perhaps an account of the fall of Boldhome in WF?

Nick Brooke always has words that offer a perfect balance of insight and humour. Here is an example from his own commentary on his memories about Greg: I attended his panel, drank in all the Gloranthan details he shared, and got to ask one of the great bleedin’ obvious questions at the end: in the final confrontation described in Cults of Terror, was Arkat or Nysalor victorious? He answered, kindly, along these lines: while the winner said he was Arkat, do remember that Gbaji is the Deceiver. I critted my Illumination roll. This, for me, somehow captured the essence of the magic that Greg brought to the world, so, even though many here knew Greg better (and enjoyed more of his company) than I did, I wanted to share my experience too. Greg touched the journey of my world in a profound and life-changing way, and Glorantha was really just the starting point. I am sure that this must be the case for many of us contributing to this growing corpus of heartfelt eulogies. From one particular encounter, the second occasion I had spent time with Greg, I felt that I had touched (what seemed to me to be way back then, and still today in some respects) an unfathomable and incomprehensible world of magical experience (“with lots of juice,” as he once described it). Perhaps one could say that in his essence Greg was a shaman, neo-shaman, ritualist, or however you would choose to describe it, and that Glorantha (and so much else) was one way he shared this with all of us. We had been at a Games Workshop convention in London, it must have been sometime around 1986 since I think it was when I was 18 years old or so. Most of the evening was spent in a pub. We didn’t talk about games: I recall us discussing global warming, showing love for Mother Earth (in precisely those terms – Greg memorably commenting upon how she provides for and embraces both our capriciousness and our ingenuity), and homosexuality. “My brother is gay”, Greg said, “what am I supposed to do, stop loving him?” Coming from a staid and emotionally-limiting Protestant and working-class background, in that second encounter, I caught the scent of liberation – something that I think I must have needed profoundly at that time in my life. My journey became one of understanding how to make the magic (the sense of profundity somehow so overwhelming in the stories about Glorantha) ‘real’ in my life; even if, for most of my years that have followed since, I simply didn’t have a clue what that meant or how it was supposed to feel. The first time I met Greg was a trip to California, about a year before the London event, to spend time with the Chaosium team – and that was all about gaming (I had been corresponding regularly by post with Sandy Petersen for years leading up to this). I went with a friend, William Nock: we hooked up with the Chaosium team at a games convention in LA, and then cheekily got a ride with them from there up to Oakland, where we spent a few days at the Chaosium office of the time. Greg let me photocopy all of his notes on Sartar, and from that was born the Greydogs game. In time David Hall took the reins of this; my own appetite for the collective creativity of Glorantha fading. In my twenties, my quest for meaning listened more to my voice of reticence and incomprehension, seeking answers with my head and not really finding space for my heart. I travelled for a year in Central America, some of the time trying to find wisdom, and quite a bit of the time seeking the comfort of female companionship – a fun but not entirely successful pastime, which involved some candid letters back and forth. Greg’s comments noted (with some humour) that I seemed to be growing up. Then I doubled-down on the route of intellect and not really of heart, and undertook a four-year undergraduate degree in the Study of Religions. This began with Joseph Campbell and more-or-less immediately became learning Biblical Hebrew, Classical Greek, and Aramaic, and reading some spectacular magical-thinking about the composition of works such as the Book of Zechariah or the first Book of Enoch. I saw Greg and Suzanne periodically throughout this time, but my degree ended around the time Greg was back in the UK for a games convention (I think that must have been about 1998) when he and Suzanne hosted a sweat (more properly, a ‘sweatlodge purification ceremony’). This was the first time I participated in a sweat ceremony. (I have one or two people to thank for that, and I don’t think I ever did adequately thank them.) It was a mind-blowing experience that left a profound impression on me, but I still didn’t understand what, ‘making the magic real’, really meant. My life became career and successive girlfriends, and some other wonderful friendships to boot, most especially with Steve Thomas, still a brother to me and an old hand of the Glorantha games circle. Girlfriends, most of them valued friends but none of them quite connecting, became a sincerely-but-ill-chosen marriage with a partner who was genuine and honest, but with whom I could never really find a meeting of minds. My contact with Greg lapsed as my interest in Glorantha waned, but he was there, when asked and somehow ‘on call’, as a friend and mentor, on the one or two occasions when I sought his advice (always characterised by humour, humility, and warmth). For example, seeking options in a life I felt was atrophying, I contacted Greg when I signed up for a year’s training in neo-shamanism (in my native UK) with the Sacred Trust – around 2005 (he was enthusiastic). That engagement propelled me at rocket-velocity into a new acceleration in life – fatherhood (daughter, totally wonderful, Epona, presently ten years’), setting up a consulting business that quickly grew to 50 or so employees, and, eventually, attending regular sweats with a group called Deer Tribe. I don’t think I met Greg again in person after that sweat in 1998. Perhaps I had learned enough from that to learn alone – after the Sacred Trust year this was certainly the case. But, in any case, in every sweat, visionquest, burial ceremony, or whatever, Greg has never been far from my thoughts. In life and in ceremony I have been walking my own journey held by the hands of many around me, but always following the magical path that Greg led me to discover; now a man and no longer a boy, a transformation that came from the growth and nourishment of a deep flower inside me, awoken and given life by a glimpse of what could be possible in a conversation in London in 1986. These days, with many steps forward (and no few backward), a wonderful daughter and beautiful partner, I think I have finally understood how to make the magic ‘real’ in my life. I can’t speak for you. I can speak for me. For me, ‘the magic’, has been to embrace experience, and to live experience, not belief, in ceremony (“with juice”) as well as in life. If you think about it, this is the difference between spirituality and religion: accepting the authenticity of, and learning from, one’s own experiences; versus accepting the authenticity of somebody else’s over your own. Greg understood and lived this with far more clarity than most, perhaps all, that I have encountered both within and without neo-shamanic circles. ‘Question everything that anybody tells you,’ was advice I recall Greg offering I think on more than one occasion. For me, his observation that, “The teaching is more important than the teacher”, and that one’s own experience (deep, rich, transformative) trumps everything, was the essence of his profound and beautiful integrity, and is the key that, from time to time, opens my door and helps me rediscover who it is, and what it is, that I need to be. Regrettably I can’t be in Arcata or Berkeley any time soon, but I will be joining sweat ceremonies in the UK, in the Sheffield area, on 3 November and 6 December. These events are not convened for this purpose, but anyway they are where I will say my prayers for Greg and his family, and where the gratitude and the reaching out will start for me. If any reading this post would like to do the same, please feel free to drop me a line. Jonathan Quaife, 14/10/2018.